High Quality Labrador Breeders? *Update!

[lovey1121]

Having had an amazing, royally bred field lab (Trumarc linebreeding) and many well-bred “show” labs, I think the discrepancy in body types lies with (yet again) the show people who breed for conformation foremost, and the hunting/field trial breeders breeding primarily for performance. Style is very important in FTs, though less so in hunting tests. A retriever who is fast on the outrun and fast coming back, with lightning response to whistle, scores higher than the more pedantic dog. Also, hunting dogs earn their living by hard work every day, as opposed to many(though thankfully not all) show labs, many of whom couldn’t hunt their way out of a paper bag. If the dog is the epitome of the breed standard but has no retrieving instinct, it WILL be bred…a beautiful hunting-bred lab who has no interest in retrieving will not be bred, except of course by morons.

Living proof of this sits at my feet. Hero is drop-dead gorgeous, a perfect show dog, but shows no retrieving drive. It stinks! And its the first time in 30 yrs that I have a non-retrieving Lab.

To breed for a beautiful dog who has a blocky head, short back, good bone, correct coat, and otter tail AND retrieving drive should be the goal of all conformation breeders, IMO. Personally, I would love to see this dog in field trials, and not just hunting tests, but I must admit to a love for the speedy, finer-boned field labs…they are spectacular! Though often they arent the most ideal family companions…that drive can cause them to view a day at the park or the beach as another opportunity for WORK

[wendy]

Why are shelter/rescue dogs considered (by some) to be less than desirable? I. Just. Don’t. Get. It.

Unless you are planning on showing your dog, why not adopt from a breed rescue?

In theory, all of the reputable breeders products never end up in the shelters or rescues, strongly suggesting that the primary sources of dogs for shelters and rescues are: puppy mills; backyard breeders; and non-reputable breeders. One big reason why you don’t want to buy a puppy from these people is the puppy may not be “of quality”. Namely, these kinds of breeders don’t select healthy stock representative of the breed to breed FROM, so it’s unlikely their puppies are healthy, mentally sound dogs who have the characteristics of the breed.

So if you go to a rescue/shelter, you’re unlikely to get a well-bred dog. Of course if you go the rescue route you can visually inspect the dog and see if actually looks like a “proper” lab- you can often tell at a glance whether it’s a “Bad breeder” product, since these are usually severely over-sized and not built at all like either a proper-bred field-strain or show-strain lab; you can also check for retrieving ability, drive, and temperament. But you can’t look for hidden genetic flaws like hip and elbow dysplasia without x-rays, and there aren’t any easy tests for the other common genetic problems that plague the breed, many of which don’t become heart-breaking expensive nightmares until the dog gets older.

[Foxtrot_s]

Question: Is golden or black or chocolate colour a genetic draw? Same blooodlines? I see above that the breeder bred a black to a golden?

[Simkie]

@Foxtrot's;6012763

Question: Is golden or black or chocolate colour a genetic draw? Same blooodlines? I see above that the breeder bred a black to a golden?

While some lab people seem keen on producing specific colors, most I have run into just want a good dog.

Lab color genetics are similar to equine color genetics:

http://www.blueknightlabs.com/color/coatcolor.html

[Bumper]

[QUOTE=Simkie;6012792]
While some lab people seem keen on producing specific colors, most I have run into just want a good dog.

Lab color genetics are similar to equine color genetics:

http://www.blueknightlabs.com/color/coatcolor.html[/QUOTE]

This brings up the new-ish trend of “silver” labs. Black, yellow and chocolate are the ONLY accepted lab colors, but people still breed for the so-called silver lab, which has a coat color like a Weimeraner (sp). Breeders get top dollar for a dog that is not an accepted color for labs and thus can’t be registered or shown. It’s no better than breeding designer dogs, it’s a marketing gimmick and a means to get more money from unsuspecting buyers because it’s ‘rare’.

[lovey1121]

Yellow(and its YELLOW, not golden-pet peeve) has been trending lately…yellow dogs photograph more easily than blacks, and the old black stigma may be in play for some. Black is dominant, yellow is recessive, and chocolate is recessive. You don’t breed a yellow to a yellow, as it will produce dudleys, which are yellows with light eyes, nose, and skin. This can also happen with choc x choc., and is highly undesirable in the show ring, but fine for pet or performance.

Characteristics on dominant gene markers are most highly heritable, very generally speaking. You often breed blacks to yellows or chocolates, since because there are 2 genes for coat color, black parent could be dominant black but recessive yellow or chocolate (I’m putting this in simplest terms, the way I learned it…not a breeder, so forgive and correct if needed). You can get all 3 colors in 1 litter, but more usual is 1 or 2.

[lovey1121]

[QUOTE=Bumper;6012910]
This brings up the new-ish trend of “silver” labs. Black, yellow and chocolate are the ONLY accepted lab colors, but people still breed for the so-called silver lab, which has a coat color like a Weimeraner (sp). Breeders get top dollar for a dog that is not an accepted color for labs and thus can’t be registered or shown. It’s no better than breeding designer dogs, it’s a marketing gimmick and a means to get more money from unsuspecting buyers because it’s ‘rare’.[/QUOTE]

Amen to this! As I always say, there’s a natural reason why a color is rare. Mama Nature knows what she’s doing.

[Simkie]

It’s interesting how yellow, which is recessive, is dominant to black, which is dominant to chocolate. Yellow looks to be on a different locus, which is why that’s possible, I guess. (I think I have that right?)

Here’s an interesting article about silver (and more details about inheritance of the other colors, too): http://labbies.com/genetics2.htm

I’d never heard of a silver lab. I think I’ve seen them, but I assumed that they were a “bad” chocolate.

[Foxtrot_s]

There is a nicer way to corrent someone - pet peeve - but I’m not that thin skinned to really care. It just stands out to me as a snark.

[lovey1121]

Simkie, I can’t wait to read this, on a real (read larger print) computer–thanks!

[wendy]

the “white” lab is the trendy color here. Bonus is you can claim it as a light “yellow” therefore an allowed color. But they are white as snow.

is there some “Hunting” rationale for the color restrictions on labs? I can see why you might not want a white protection/guard dog (no white GSDs: too visible in the dark), but other than the fact the mud would be more visible on a white dog is there a detriment there? many of the bird dogs have a lot of white on them, presumably to make them more visible to the hunters.

[ponymom64]

I always understood that chocolate was not a recognized color and that it is not the produce of either a black or a yellow but only from chocolate to chocolate.

Any litter of black bred to black or black bred to yellow can produce black or yellow pups. I also understood that you will never get a chocolate pup from black or yellow parents - but I could be wrong

I’ve heard people use the term “golden” to describe the darker yellow labs, I don’t find it offensive at all. My yellow, though he is very light now due to his age, was frequently described as golden as his coat was very dark yellow

[Simkie]

@ponymom64;6012998

I always understood that chocolate was not a recognized color and that it is not the produce of either a black or a yellow but only from chocolate to chocolate.

Any litter of black bred to black or black bred to yellow can produce black or yellow pups. I also understood that you will never get a chocolate pup from black or yellow parents - but I could be wrong

Apparently untrue. Go here: http://www.blueknightlabs.com/color/coatcolor.html and click through the dogs on the left. A black that carries yellow and chocolate bred to a black that carries yellow and chocolate can have all three colors in the litter. A black that carries yellow and chocolate bred to a black that carries chocolate can produce blacks and chocolates. Same goes for blacks that carry chocolate bred to yellows that carry chocolate.

Yellows bred together will only produce yellow, sort of like how a chestnut horse bred to a chestnut horse will only produce chestnuts…

[Mayaty02]

some people just want a full purebred dog. There is nothing wrong with it, just personal taste. I have a purebred English lab and I happen to think she is far and away the most gorgeous creature I have ever seen. Love all dogs, but something about a purebred lab, from looks to attitude to temperment etc. OP has every right to feel the same way (or her dad does more accurately )

[ponymom64]

[QUOTE=Simkie;6013006]
Apparently untrue. Go here: http://www.blueknightlabs.com/color/coatcolor.html and click through the dogs on the left. A black that carries yellow and chocolate bred to a black that carries yellow and chocolate can have all three colors in the litter. A black that carries yellow and chocolate bred to a black that carries chocolate can produce blacks and chocolates. Same goes for blacks that carry chocolate bred to yellows that carry chocolate.

Yellows bred together will only produce yellow, sort of like how a chestnut horse bred to a chestnut horse will only produce chestnuts…[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the info! I had no idea that could happen as I’ve never seen a chocolate puppy mixed in with the black and yellow ones. Live and learn :yes:

[lovey1121]

[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;6012953]
There is a nicer way to corrent someone - pet peeve - but I’m not that thin skinned to really care. It just stands out to me as a snark.[/QUOTE]

Sorry you saw that as a snark! Its the same as when someone in referring to a purebred of any species says, “So he’s a thoroughbred?” There’s only one type of thoroughbred, and it starts with a capitol T, not interchangeable with purebred. Beige labs are yellow, not golden, brown labs are chocolate, brown German Shorthaired Pointers are liver-its just correct terminology. I guess I shouldn’t have used caps…that made it smell snarky–sorry, Foxtrot.

[lovey1121]

[QUOTE=wendy;6012985]
the “white” lab is the trendy color here. Bonus is you can claim it as a light “yellow” therefore an allowed color. But they are white as snow[/QUOTE]

Here, too. Also the “British Cream Golden Retriever”-similar color to the superlight yellow labs.

[Ben_and_Me]

Aren’t there also red labs? At least I saw one last weekend that the owner’s claimed was a “red lab…”

[Simkie]

@Ben and Me;6013188

Aren’t there also red labs? At least I saw one last weekend that the owner’s claimed was a “red lab…”

Fox reds, maybe? http://labbies.com/genetics2.htm#FoxReds

[Incantation]

If the breeder you found doesn’t work out for you, try Paddington Labradors http://webpages.charter.net/lofgren/index.htm

She has been breeding and showing labs for over 20yrs. Awesome dogs, very responsible breeder. Her next litter won’t be until Jan though.

As for the fat labs at the shows, I know it is common practice with some breeds/handlers to feed more calories just before the important show to add extra bulk. When I was showing my Mastiff I was advised to do this, but I didn’t want to show a sausage with legs.