Yes, they are often called fox-red. I dont think I’ve ever seen a true english/show red lab–only field dogs. Curiously you still see red Goldens, though they seem not to be as popular as the more typical color, or even the color du jour, the cream. There are lots of red Goldens in field lines, though.
Awww, Lovey, it’s ok - you are sweet!! Guess I misjudged - but some people come onto this board so abrasive in tone all the time…
[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;6013325]
Awww, Lovey, it’s ok - you are sweet!! Guess I misjudged - but some people come onto this board so abrasive in tone all the time…[/QUOTE]
:yes::yes: to this…its why it took me 10 yrs. of lurking before I began posting. :o
I actually remember at the time I had gotten my first lab I was told (in a definite you-should-know-your-breed-better tone) by a BN breeder that yellow Labs were referred to as yellow and not golden- I never forgot that…I truly meant it as educative. (Is that a word??:winkgrin:)
[QUOTE=cowboymom;6009112]
I didn’t suggest that a shelter dog was more healthy than a purebred lab.
I said a healthy lab was going to be very expensive.
I said labs are prone to be very unhealthy unless you get a very expensive one.
I said there is probably a dog with an equally nice personality in the shelter.
And then I mentioned karma (and spelled it wrong) which got an honorable mention in your little irritable rant at me.
Go pee on someone else’s leg-I don’t need to hear more crabbiness from another nutty dog elitist.[/QUOTE]
GREAT POST!!
[QUOTE=ponymom64;6011512]
Well, to each their own 
I much prefer the British type with their gorgeous blocky heads, short bodies and thick tail :yes:[/QUOTE]
ME TOO!
There aren’t too many people who can live with a field bred Lab as a house pet. Most folks on COTH have farms where the dogs can run and get tons of exercise, you guys are the minority!
Most people live in the city, not in the country. IMO for these people to be told a field bred dog is ‘better’ is a crime and doing a HUGE disservice to the dog AND the owner.
Field bred dogs of ANY breed do NOT do well in the city with typical owners who work, don’t hunt and don’t have acreage.
And there is nothing wrong with the ‘British’ style of cobby Lab. These dogs make wonderful pets for the majority of people. They are calmer, easier to live with and have enough retrieving instinct to play ball with you and your kids.
I think it’s ridiculous for folks who profess to love a certain breed of dog to knock one style vrs. another style within the breed. What is best for YOU isn’t best for the majority of folks!
I liken most hunting bred dogs to high octane sports cars, the average Joe can’t handle either one!
I also think it’s ridiculous to say that rescue dogs are rife with behavioral problems and take a lot of work. Horse-hockey!
Most rescue dogs are the result of bad decisions, the result of their owners doing insufficient preparation and research of the breed.
It can be hard to walk through the pound and choose a suitable dog/pup. If you aren’t an experienced dog person don’t attempt to do this! Instead adopt from a RESCUE, a rescue is NOT the same as the pound!
Most rescues have dogs in foster homes, they are carefully evaluated for temperament, suitability around children, other dogs, cats, etc. Many are house trained, most are crate trained, many have basic obedience training.
And PLEASE, if you’ve had a bad experience with a ‘rescue’ (which may have actually been the pound, unfortunately people call EVERYTHING a rescue), PLEASE don’t tell me about it. RESCUES ARE NOT PERFECT, bad things happen, mistakes happen, rescue organizations are not perfect any more then breeders are perfect. There are NO perfect things in life.
[QUOTE=Ben and Me;6012244]
There is a big difference between your description and the dog at Westminster. Breed standard or not, that dog was a 7-8/9 on the body condition scale, making him predisposed to everything from osteoarthritis to cancer-and not just because of his breed, simply due to his weight.
The worst part is that uneducated folks see that winning, look at their own obese lab, and think he looks ok.
I’ve seen healthy-weight English labs, but that is certainly not what was shown on either the website I referenced or the Westminster lab last year. It is a struggle to keep a companion lab thin, and those “ideal” dogs aren’t doing any of their breed-mates any favors![/QUOTE]
One thing about English labs is that they have much fuller coats than Field-bred, and those in the show ring will not be furminatoring you can bet that 
My dogs breeders dogs are very full looking, while I furminate my dog and she looks much leaner. They have a thick undercoat that is missing in true field bred labs. Not saying that dog wasn’t also probably fat, but again alot of it could be coat.
Oh and they are air ferns in the truest sense. My poor 1 yr old eats hardly anything and yet some would call her fat. She gets I think less than 2 cups of Wellness large breed per day, some training treats and no human food, and she takes two walks per day.
And one more thing. I, and most other people involved in dogs would NOT call someone that has SEVEN litters within a couple of weeks a GOOD or REPUTABLE breeder.
Puppies should be whelped and raised underfoot, IN THE HOUSE.
You can’t tell me that someone with 70 puppies (assuming seven litters of 10 pups each, which is typical for a Lab) is going to raise them on the house.
[QUOTE=lovey1121;6013199]
Yes, they are often called fox-red. I dont think I’ve ever seen a true english/show red lab–only field dogs. Curiously you still see red Goldens, though they seem not to be as popular as the more typical color, or even the color du jour, the cream. There are lots of red Goldens in field lines, though.[/QUOTE]
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee488/eventing128/IMG_0475.jpg
Here’s a picture of my dogs. All three are full registered Labradors. The black one is the dam of the two yellows. We bred her to IMA Rockstar who is a dark yellow. Many people at field trials have called the darker female in the picture a “fox red” but she is registered yellow.
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee488/eventing128/puppies.jpg
This is a picture of the black lab’s litter, including the two dogs in the above picture. She had 3 blacks, 3 dark yellows and 3 lighter yellows.
The are obviously “field-bred” labs and have all been extremely successful at high levels of competition, but they are also amazing companions and house dogs. The black one has lived with me at college all four years, although she does get to go to the barn at least 4 days a week. And this last semester the darker yellow one has also lived with me. She has had a slightly harder time adjusting to being in the house but seems to love getting the extra attention. She is currently sleeping in her crate, door open, next to my bed
Beautiful dogs every one, UKYEventer! What events do they do?
Whew - I’m reading a lot of generalized misinformation here - but that goes hand in hand with owners of Labs and lovers of the breed - because there are so many.
-
You don’t “not breed yellows to yellows” because you might get a dudley. I was a small breeder, mentored for years by a nationally known breeder whose entire life has been devoted to the breed. A chocolate/yellow cross may have a more likelihood of dudleys, who, by the way, are still great labs - just will be discarded from the show ring. But it does depend on the two individuals’ genetic makeup. And the “silver” thing has been kicking around for years as well.
-
Larger may mean more field breeding, and the other vice versa. But there are smaller excellent field dogs, and tall dogs also acceptable in the ring - winners change as popular preferences do - supposedly as long as they are within the breed standard. And there are no English/American types. That’s been a misnomer for decades as well. There are so many English lines here in the US, that they are all “American”.
My breeder/friend hates these generalities. However the standard changed about 10? years ago (caused a HUGE rift in the Lab community) allowing a shorter dog to fall within acceptable guidelines. It was rumored to be necessary as the prevalance of certain predispositions to dysplasias were supposedly apparent in the larger dogs. Mentor advised it was based on the leanings of some breeders whose lines were producing smaller and smaller and didn’t want to be dropped out of the standard. But I really dislike the smaller ones - see them as more unbalanced movers, although, of course, still have the great Lab temperament. I love a dog with some air underneath them - with fluidity. Mine were like that, but were from show lines, not field trial lines, and they were as mellow as you could want from a Lab. A LOT depends on how they are raised, and HOW they are acclimated to the outside world as puppies - before they leave the litter. There is a short period of time a breeder has to do the right thing, and the good ones do it. -
Genetic disease is very prevalent among many breeds of dogs, and Labs are no exception. And you certainly can get hip/elbow/eye issues from a very reputable breeder. The likelihood should be less, but the genetics are so complicated that the best breeders have many who don’t clear. I’m unaware of any hard & fast rules for preventing these diseases other than hoping the x-rays/testing will rule an individual out, but tests can be skewed as well. There are thousands of the breed supporters out there who would like to earn their ticket to retirement by figuring out the formulas that prevent dysplasia/eye disease/cancers from happening. But, IMHO, a reputable breeder will give you an unconditional return policy.
They also should prevent you from having an open registration so that you cannot register any litters you have, as they won’t want their pups being used as money making mills. If you follow, and become very involved with the breed, a reputable breeder would then probably enthusiastically support opening up the registration, assuming the dog has acceptable conformation, disposition, and all the clearances, and in their opinion, will continue representing their line in your care.
- Yellow, as in the standard, ranges from a cream, almost white color (mine were) to a fox red. They are never called “white” or “fox red” - they’re just variations under the yellow color. Those are terms within the standard, and have been for years. http://www.akc.org/breeds/labrador_retriever/
Color
The Labrador Retriever coat colors are black, yellow and chocolate. Any other color or a combination of colors is a disqualification. A small white spot on the chest is permissible, but not desirable. White hairs from aging or scarring are not to be misinterpreted as brindling. Black–Blacks are all black. A black with brindle markings or a black with tan markings is a disqualification. Yellow–Yellows may range in color from fox-red to light cream, with variations in shading on the ears, back, and underparts of the dog. Chocolate–Chocolates can vary in shade from light to dark chocolate. Chocolate with brindle or tan markings is a disqualification.
- If a Lab’s coat isn’t outwardly wavy - doesn’t mean it doesn’t have the correct coat. My show girls were quite smooth looking, and were never discounted because of coat - they had the proper undercoats - one was a swimming nut who loved to go swimming in Skaneateles Lake all winter. And believe me, my vacuum and I knew they had the right coat!
I’m sure there are other changes in Lab breeding and disease in recent years that I’m not up on - sure hope dysplasia is waning. And hope I can still find show lines with some athleticism, fluid movement, and size when life allows me to return to them. Haven’t had a Lab in 3 years when my last girl passed, and had my own lines for 20. Ex SO didn’t want dogs again except he became enamored of Irish Wolfhounds, so we adopted Toula. Love her to death, but would like to see her curled up with a Labby. My life’s ideal was a photo in a horse care book, of a rider passing along a row of trees, with her Labbies underfoot. :sigh:
Best of luck, and have a good time! to the OP in her quest to make her Mom happy.
I don’t think that is true. All dogs need exercise. Most dogs need vigorous exercise. I’m sure the mixed breed dog needs just as much exercise as a field bred lab. They may just not be as good at retrieving or hunting.
[QUOTE=Pcostx;6013562]
I think it’s ridiculous for folks who profess to love a certain breed of dog to knock one style vrs. another style within the breed. What is best for YOU isn’t best for the majority of folks! [/QUOTE]
I don’t think anyone here is really saying one style is better than another, just that they prefer it. And the more you know about a breed, the better able you are at recognizing “type” or differences in breed characteristics and conformation.
I do agree with another poster that said some of the “obese” looking labs may not be as fat as they look. I don’t know either way, but until you put your hands on the dog it’s often hard to say. The win picture of the Westminster BOB lab from last year looks like he’s fat, but he still has a tucked up belly, which I wouldn’t think you’d see in a fat dog. So maybe he’s not as fat as he looks?
Great post^^ . I love your phrasing-“a dog with some air underneath”-my preference as well.
I was lucky enough to live your life’s ideal, which was mine, also. When I was a barnrat, I watched BO’s daughter ride into the woods with her dogs, and that became my dream. 20 yrs. later, I got there, riding my horse on the gravel roads all around the USET in Gladstone, with my field girl and show boy, both black, along for the fun. It is my most cherished memory-bringing together horse and dogs and unequalled scenery. Better than any show memory, horse or dog.
Maybe Santa can bring you a little bundle of labberdog for Christmas!
A dog that is hard wired to hunt should have stamina, energy and a never quit attitude. A good hunting dog will last hours in the field in all kinds of weather conditions.
I never said that ALL dogs don’t need exercise, what I said is dogs bred to hunt have much more energy then a typical family living in the city can cope with. Taking a dog like that out on a walk a couple of times day for 30 min. or so doesn’t even get them warmed up, let alone expend any energy!
Believe me, I’ve seen what these dogs become when they aren’t exercised properly. I’ve had them surrendered to my rescue (along with their registration papers) because their owners were too busy to properly exercise them. I see thousands of dogs a year, while there are the occasional terrier mixes that have a ton of energy, the average mutt doesn’t have the drive and genetic NEED to work hard the way a purebred dog bred to hunt does.
That’s like saying all horses need exercise, of course they do. But aren’t there some breeds or types of horses that are more driven, more hard wired to need a certain amount and intensity of work? Isn’t that why we tell newbies to the horse world to get a certain breed or cross of horse/pony for their first horse? Because those breeds/crosses are [I]generally speaking[I]quieter and easier to handle?
Dogs are no different.
Lots of dogs of all breeds/mixes retrieve well enough to hunt or do field trials, etc. What sets the Labs, Weims, Vizsla’s, etc. apart from these other dogs is the heart and drive, the ability to be trained and reliable in the field, etc. NOT just the fact that they can retrieve!
I have a Cardigan Corgi that is a retrieving fool, he’s been tested by professionals who said he’s got everything it takes to be a working dog (SAR/Drug Detection, etc.) http://www.gapdogs.org/ but could he go out in the field and hunt? Of course not, he hasn’t got the stamina, he’s not built to swim well, and he’s not got the leg to retrieve over long distances.
There are always exceptions, but generally speaking, the more generations a dog has been bred for a certain use (hunting, herding, police work, schutzhund, etc.), the better the chance that animal will have too high a drive and energy level for the Average Joe who has no intention of hunting or herding, or whatever, and just wants a house pet.
[QUOTE=Pcostx;6014122]
A dog that is hard wired to hunt should have stamina, energy and a never quit attitude. A good hunting dog will last hours in the field in all kinds of weather conditions.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I know…I own 2 brittanys, and used to have 3. Owned the first when I lived in a brownstone in the city, got the 2nd when we lived in the suburbs and had a fenced yard, and got the 3rd after we bought our farm. Just because the can last for hours in the field, doesn’t mean they need hours of exercise to keep them from shredding the house. They do need exercise, but it doesn’t mean they can’t make good pets.
I agree that a 20 minute walk on the leash isn’t enough for a field dog, but it’s not impossible to own them without having your own farm. It’s not even really difficult, actually. I would think that all “high energy” breeds would be pretty similar as far as their need to “work” and expend energy – the herding types, the sporting types, the mixed breeds. My brittanys are certainly happiest when they are hunting, but they can do other things too. My young guy is out on a 30ft swivel lead with a jolly ball right now.
[QUOTE=S1969;6014231]
Yes, I know…I own 2 brittanys, and used to have 3. Owned the first when I lived in a brownstone in the city, got the 2nd when we lived in the suburbs and had a fenced yard, and got the 3rd after we bought our farm. Just because the can last for hours in the field, doesn’t mean they need hours of exercise to keep them from shredding the house. They do need exercise, but it doesn’t mean they can’t make good pets.
I agree that a 20 minute walk on the leash isn’t enough for a field dog, but it’s not impossible to own them without having your own farm. It’s not even really difficult, actually. I would think that all “high energy” breeds would be pretty similar as far as their need to “work” and expend energy – the herding types, the sporting types, the mixed breeds. My brittanys are certainly happiest when they are hunting, but they can do other things too. My young guy is out on a 30ft swivel lead with a jolly ball right now.[/QUOTE]
Didn’t say it was impossible, what I said was IMO, the Average Joe dog owner can’t handle these types of dogs. Maybe I should say inexperienced dog owner? Or lazy dog owner?
I doubt you would call yourself an ‘average’ dog owner. From your posts you sound as if you’ve had lots of dogs and are quite experienced. You understand the needs of your dogs and are willing and able to meet them.
Perhaps most folks on COTH are like you.
What I’m saying is that in my experience, most people with little to average knowledge of dogs who go out and purchase a dog from predominantly hunting/herding/working lines are NOT willing, able or savvy enough to properly manage the dog.
If we agree to disagree that’s fine by me!
[QUOTE=Pcostx;6014274]
What I’m saying is that in my experience, most people with little to average knowledge of dogs who go out and purchase a dog from predominantly hunting/herding/working lines are NOT willing, able or savvy enough to properly manage the dog.
If we agree to disagree that’s fine by me![/QUOTE]
I think there probably aren’t too many dogs that are a good match for lazy dog owners. But inexperience…people can work around that. Just about everyone is inexperienced at some point – we were, when we got our first brittany, who is actually the only one of the 3 bred specifically to hunt.
I also think that if you interact with a thousand dogs in a year through a rescue or shelter situation, you basically see the failures and not the success stories…my experience is the opposite. I don’t think I know anyone that has ever not kept a dog forever, even if the dog was a pain in the rear end.
ETA: Actually, I know one person and after he brought his two 8 year old pekinese dogs to a shelter my opinion of him was forever changed. :mad: (He & his wife could no longer handle their two high profile careers and their new baby with two small dogs…that they had owned their entire lives.) Grr!
[QUOTE=S1969;6014288]
I think there probably aren’t too many dogs that are a good match for lazy dog owners. But inexperience…people can work around that. Just about everyone is inexperienced at some point – we were, when we got our first brittany, who is actually the only one of the 3 bred specifically to hunt.
I also think that if you interact with a thousand dogs in a year through a rescue or shelter situation, you basically see the failures and not the success stories…my experience is the opposite. I don’t think I know anyone that has ever not kept a dog forever, even if the dog was a pain in the rear end.
ETA: Actually, I know one person and after he brought his two 8 year old pekinese dogs to a shelter my opinion of him was forever changed. :mad: (He & his wife could no longer handle their two high profile careers and their new baby with two small dogs…that they had owned their entire lives.) Grr![/QUOTE]
I see dogs from a rescue and a training standpoint. And no, just because I train dogs that doesn’t mean I ONLY see the problems! Plenty of great people with great dogs contact professionals for training!
And while I do get dogs surrendered to me because they were too much for the owner, many of the dogs that end up in my rescue are very, very nice dogs that had owners who simply didn’t put ANY form of ID on the dog. There was no way to find the original owner so the dog went to the pound, then either winds up in rescue or put to sleep.
One more thing, I know TONS of lazy dog owners who have dogs that are the perfect match for them!
Like I said, let’s agree to disagree and not flog this subject to a pulp.
One more thing, I wouldn’t call ANY of the rescue dogs I’ve encountered over the past 35+ years ‘failures’. I can count on one hand the dogs that had major issues which prevented them from being adoptable.
The vast majority were great dogs with great personalities.
For an instance, here is an email I received on 12/5/11 from one of my adoptive families (they adopted an 18 month to 2 year old ‘tweenie’ Dachshund from our rescue):
[I]I just wanted to let you know that we had a great weekend with Danny who has been renamed to Chewie. He is such a sweet thing and the kids are having so much fun with him. He just has the best temperment. I don’t think I have ever
seen a dog who is just so chill.
Thank you for saving him.
Michelle G[/I]
Here’s another email, from the new owner of a PUREBRED gorgeous Yellow Lab, that had no ID. She came into the City of Dallas Animal Control, was kept on stray hold, then scheduled to be killed. The THREE Lab rescues in Dallas were all full so we took her in and named her Sandy.
[I]Hi Deirdre,
Sandy…who is now Kona, is doing great! She fit right in and has been the perfect dog. She hasn’t had any accidents in the house and she is getting used to jogging/walking on a leash. We have found her favorite activity is going to the park, she is very curious about other dogs and people. She entertains us everyday with some new trick that she picks up.
We are enrolled in the obedience class that starts on January 19th - so far she has learned “sit” and “down”. I think obedience class will be good for teaching her a few more manners and she will love socializing with the other dogs.
Our only complaint is that she is a bit of a bed hog - she prefers to lay on us instead of next to us.
Take Care!
Heather [/I]
I get emails, calls and letters like this regularly proving (to me at least) that rescue dogs have nothing wrong with them other then being temporarily homeless:yes:
Like I said in an earlier post, the notion that most rescue dogs have major behavioral, health and temperament issues is really incorrect and scares people away from potentially getting a great dog/puppy by making them think they HAVE to purchase a puppy from a breeder.
[QUOTE=Pcostx;6014324]
One more thing, I wouldn’t call ANY of the rescue dogs I’ve encountered over the past 35+ years ‘failures’. I can count on one hand the dogs that had major issues which prevented them from being adoptable.[/QUOTE]
I didn’t mean that the dogs were the problems, I meant that the owners were. The owners failed at being a good dog owner and the dog ended up in a shelter or a rescue situation…as opposed to the dog owners who got as puppy or adult dog but never brought them (or returned them) to a shelter or rescue. I just meant that there are a lot of inexperienced or “average” dog owners out there who get high energy dogs – field, herding, or just plain crazy – and it works out just fine.
But yes, we’ve certainly derailed the OPs thread long enough.
[QUOTE=didgery;6008885]
Why don’t you give your mom an IOU for a puppy of her choice whenever she’s ready? Wrap up a beautiful card with a message about how you would like to help her add another lab to the family, and that you recommend X, Y and Z breeders. That way, your mom can be part of the process and you can plan ahead to get the perfect dog for her. You’ll still have something under the tree to surprise her with. [/QUOTE]
If you’re going to go with a breeder, I like this idea. It lets your mom decide what breeder, what puppy, and it lets the breeder meet both your mom and your dad to help select what puppy from the litter may be best suited for them (after they have given a deposit, etc.)
You could also find a Labrador Christmas ornament to put in with the IOU.
