Hind End Conformation?

[batman_the_horse]

The hind end and back legs are the areas I have the most trouble with, as far as determining good conformation. Would anyone be interested in showing me examples of good/bad hind conformation, and a brief explanation of what is right/wrong? I am especially interested in seeing exactly what good/bad stifles look like. I can see a straight hock, but a straight stifle eludes me.

I also posted this on Off Course, but I think it is more relevant in this forum since I am an h/j rider and foxhunter. MODS - feel free to delete my posting in Off Course.

[equisusan]

Here’s a good guide:
http://www.horseproblems.com.au/Photo’s/Conformation/Hindlegconformation.gif

I haven’t a read through the whole page but a quick glance and it looked like it has lots of valuable knowledge for you.
http://www.horseproblems.com.au/stifle_problems_in_horses.htm

[beowulf]

There are differing opinions of what is an ideal hind end in the different disciplines. You will get varying responses based on the crowd.

Either way, you will likely not get many answers: this is a topic not many reply to.

When I think of a horse with an ideal hind end, I think of a horse like this:
http://www.stallionguide.ca/news/2008/2008_61_b.jpg
That is Navarone

When I look at a horse, it is not just the hind end that is important but what ties into it - you can have a hind end that appears favorable, but a long back that weakens it. I like for the horse to be three equal parts - chest, barrel, hindquarters.

I look at where I imagine the skeleton to be - and envision a triangle between the top of the pelvis, the patella (stifle) and the ischium (point of buttock). I like for it to be equilateral, with a moderate set stifle that is neither too high and short, nor too low/long - if either, the triangle is no longer equilateral. I look for a flatter pelvis and a somewhat long and sloped femur. I am truly particular about stifles - there is not a term to my knowledge for the ones that look ‘under’ or ‘retracted’, but I do not like them and find that horses that have them have limited jump capabilities.

This horse, to me, has ideal hind end conformation - he appears parked out, but I suspect that is more to do with body-soreness than actual stance.
http://fingerlakesfinesttbs.com/twosteps-closer-2008-17h-bay-gelding/

This mare, while gorgeous, has too low a stifle for my preference (I am an eventer)
http://fingerlakesfinesttbs.com/sara-t-2009-16-1-bay-mare/

This mare has the depth of bone and croup I look for, but uneven angles from point of hip to stifle
http://fingerlakesfinesttbs.com/red-hot-hoofs-2011-15h-chestnut-filly/

This mare has an ideal hind end, to me
http://fingerlakesfinesttbs.com/madison-ave-jo-jo/

This gelding has an exemplary hind end:
http://fingerlakesfinesttbs.com/stay-high-stanley-6-year-old-dark-brown-16-3-gelding/

And this is the horse I came home with last year, who I believe has favorable hind end conformation too:
http://fingerlakesfinesttbs.com/midnight-tucker-5-year-old-16-3-h-dark-bay-gelding/

It is really, I think, the stifle that is most important. Lower set stifles have been observed to correlate with jumping performance, while high stifles seem to more popular in the dressage world.

Fortunately, conformation, while compounding, is not the only role played in limiting or enhancing performance. There are horses who outjump, outperform, outmove their conformation - and remain sound. There are exceptions to every rule, and not every horse with straight hind legs is a poor jumper:

Winsome Adante (eventer) and Elkridge (chaser) are both horses with notably straight legs that were very successful. Their stifles had a lot to do with it, I imagine.

What is more important is the open angle, and how the horse uses it - a horse over a fence should be able to compress itself, fold itself, and extend joints and be flexible. Some conformation inhibits flexibility. A straight hock angle is noted in many top jumpers - however, a straight/short stifle and straight pelvis is not.

This should help you:
http://www.equinescienceupdate.co.uk/conformation.htm
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/10659/focus-on-discipline-dressage

[Tha_Ridge]

@beowulf;7622810

Fortunately, conformation, while compounding, is not the only role played in limiting or enhancing performance. There are horses who outjump, outperform, outmove their conformation - and remain sound. There are exceptions to every rule, and not every horse with straight hind legs is a poor jumper:

Winsome Adante (eventer) and Elkridge (chaser) are both horses with notably straight legs that were very successful. Their stifles had a lot to do with it, I imagine.

I’ve found horses that are straight behind to be better-than-average movers.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Tha Ridge;7623375]
I’ve found horses that are straight behind to be better-than-average movers.[/QUOTE]

I have only found this to be the case if they are straight hocked with a long, sloping femur, a low stifle. Otherwise, they are too straight through the hock and cannot extend enough to step under themselves.

[Zuri]

[QUOTE=beowulf;7622810]
There are differing opinions of what is an ideal hind end in the different disciplines. You will get varying responses based on the crowd.

Either way, you will likely not get many answers: this is a topic not many reply to.

When I think of a horse with an ideal hind end, I think of a horse like this:
http://www.stallionguide.ca/news/2008/2008_61_b.jpg
That is Navarone

When I look at a horse, it is not just the hind end that is important but what ties into it - you can have a hind end that appears favorable, but a long back that weakens it. I like for the horse to be three equal parts - chest, barrel, hindquarters.

I look at where I imagine the skeleton to be - and envision a triangle between the top of the pelvis, the patella (stifle) and the ischium (point of buttock). I like for it to be equilateral, with a moderate set stifle that is neither too high and short, nor too low/long - if either, the triangle is no longer equilateral. I look for a flatter pelvis and a somewhat long and sloped femur. I am truly particular about stifles - there is not a term to my knowledge for the ones that look ‘under’ or ‘retracted’, but I do not like them and find that horses that have them have limited jump capabilities.

This horse, to me, has ideal hind end conformation - he appears parked out, but I suspect that is more to do with body-soreness than actual stance.
http://fingerlakesfinesttbs.com/twosteps-closer-2008-17h-bay-gelding/

This mare, while gorgeous, has too low a stifle for my preference (I am an eventer)
http://fingerlakesfinesttbs.com/sara-t-2009-16-1-bay-mare/

This mare has the depth of bone and croup I look for, but uneven angles from point of hip to stifle
http://fingerlakesfinesttbs.com/red-hot-hoofs-2011-15h-chestnut-filly/

This mare has an ideal hind end, to me
http://fingerlakesfinesttbs.com/madison-ave-jo-jo/

This gelding has an exemplary hind end:
http://fingerlakesfinesttbs.com/stay-high-stanley-6-year-old-dark-brown-16-3-gelding/

And this is the horse I came home with last year, who I believe has favorable hind end conformation too:
http://fingerlakesfinesttbs.com/midnight-tucker-5-year-old-16-3-h-dark-bay-gelding/

It is really, I think, the stifle that is most important. Lower set stifles have been observed to correlate with jumping performance, while high stifles seem to more popular in the dressage world.

Fortunately, conformation, while compounding, is not the only role played in limiting or enhancing performance. There are horses who outjump, outperform, outmove their conformation - and remain sound. There are exceptions to every rule, and not every horse with straight hind legs is a poor jumper:

Winsome Adante (eventer) and Elkridge (chaser) are both horses with notably straight legs that were very successful. Their stifles had a lot to do with it, I imagine.

What is more important is the open angle, and how the horse uses it - a horse over a fence should be able to compress itself, fold itself, and extend joints and be flexible. Some conformation inhibits flexibility. A straight hock angle is noted in many top jumpers - however, a straight/short stifle and straight pelvis is not.

This should help you:
http://www.equinescienceupdate.co.uk/conformation.htm
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/10659/focus-on-discipline-dressage[/QUOTE]

Thank you for these examples. It is really helpful to those of us who do not have such a trained eye.

[Go_Fish]

I would post your question over on the Sport Horse Breeding forum. Lots of knowledgeable people over there…

[Plumcreek]

A statement I keep in mind: “The Horse is a rear-engine animal”. The easy and good horses are the ones that have the rear end strength to do their sport with minimal effort. Angles and low hocks help, but what I look for especially, and is often lacking in non-QH sport horses, is a low tie down of the muscles from the hip down to the gaskin area, especially down the back toward the hock.

Profiled, this means from the back of the butt, the muscles drop straighter down to a lower attachment, and you do not want to see the muscle profile following a high inward curve with muscle attachment high on the gaskin. A bunch of high dollar stud fee TB race horse sires have great rear end muscle depth for power in running, and that also extends to getting over a big jump.

Editing to add photos of Belmont winner Tonalist, taken by COTHer Laurierace.
This is the type of rear end muscle depth I am referring to - impressive even on a very fit three year old.

https://www.facebook.com/189840138971/photos/pcb.10152431220428972/10152431215558972/?type=1&theater

[VirginiaBred]

This is an excellent video to review for conformation in general, but addresses your questions regarding hind legs. http://www.amazon.com/Selecting-Hunters-Jumpers-Rodney-Jenkins/dp/B000NJD4C4

[batman_the_horse]

Wow - thank you for the responses! I do receive Practical Horseman, read their conformation column, and feel pretty comfortable dividing the horse into 3 (hopefully) equal parts, looking at slope of shoulder, uphill/downhill, pastern length and slope, etc. I am really trying to train my eye for the rear end of the horse, though. This is all very helpful!

I think I need to review the skeletal structure of the hind end, too. The comment about the triangle of the hind-end being an equilateral one was very helpful.