Hind legs won't lift - thoughts?

[Heinz_57]

My 18yo TB has, over the last few years, developed an issue I’ve not run into before. When asked to lift the hind legs from the ground as you would to pick out the foot, he will only lift it forward. If I want it lifted straight up I have to physically hoist it up myself and hold it there. When being trimmed by the farrier, he is difficult about extending the leg backward past the hip, even with a stand, and will repeatedly and forcibly yank away said foot before eventually relaxing into the stand. Attempting to stretch the leg backwards results in the same. Farrier is very gentle and not trying to put the leg in any awkward or torqued positions out of convenience, he keeps the leg close to the body and the stand low.

Now, he’s had a lameness workup since this began (although this particular anomaly was not discussed at the time). Nothing surprising of note for a horse his age, minor arthritis in the hocks that is being managed with Pentosan and 24/7 turnout. He trots out sound and does not drag his toes or otherwise show any gait deficiencies, travels straight, etc. He has been both shod and barefoot and it makes no difference.

Has anyone observed this in a horse before? I’m not looking for an internet diagnosis, but am hoping perhaps similar cases might give me an idea of what specific area this is originating from that we can look more closely at as a starting point. SI? Tightness of certain muscles? A side effect of something else entirely? I don’t even know where to begin.

He has not had any bodywork done yet, he has been on vacation for nearly a year now (because of me, nothing to do with him) and is just starting back into work. He feels great under saddle and is generally in good spirits and willing to go to work.

[beowulf]

what happens when he backs up? or when you ask him to move over, does he step over his inside leg, and do a full step through the body?

I would ask your vet about shivers, especially if he has difficulty with any of the above ^

[Heinz_57]

Hmmm. I don’t recall him having any trouble or hitches with backing up or moving over/crossing legs, but having just watched some videos of shivers-diagnosed horses there are some distinct similarities in the movement when asked to pick up a leg. I will have to go out and mess with him a bit after I do some research.

And it makes sense that it would be something neuro, as he has never seemed particularly cognizant of the foot-snatching; his expression doesn’t change, he’s not freaked out or pulling away due to pain.

Reading through MSU’s paper on Shivers, it mentions head and neck spasms. That is interesting, and something he has had temporarily a handful of times over the last few months, but I attributed it to other things.

I live about 30 minutes from a vet school, I guess I will give them a call and see about making an appointment for a neuro exam. I’d like to know one way or the other before I go through putting him back to work, if it IS shivers it has progressed quite slowly but I’d rather just let him retire in that case.

Thanks for the insight.

[DancingArabian]

From my very limited direct personal experience, in the four horses I know that display this behavior, it is a problem with their joints. Two stifle, one hock, and one (believed to be) hip. All four of them, however, can comfortably rest their foot, and they are trimmed like that, and not from a stand going backwards. All four can put their foot on a stand pulling their leg forward, comfortably.

[BeckyS]

My gelding has pretty bad arthritis in his hind…everywhere. His fetlocks are the size of softballs. He has a very hard time being trimmed, even the fronts, due to the amount of weight on his hinds.

We trim slowly, often over a few days, since I do his trimming. Bute beforehand if it will be a longer trim. Hinds are pulled forward, we do what we can.

My gelding still trots out sound and has been happy as a clam, but we’ve been dealing with this since he was 16 or so (21 now).

[CERT]

My husband’s Belgian mare has shivers in her right hind and the big signifier is hyperflexion of the hind leg and a “shivering” of the haunch and tail when asked to pick it up and walking backwards. It’s closely linked to these two “learned” behaviors that require conscious effort from the horse. The MSU study noted lesions in the brain as a possible cause and there is debate as to whether it has a genetic portion and possibly related to physical injury as well (she had some major accident before we bought het that gave her high ringbone in her right fore). Ruby doesn’t do it when backing (yet) and while it doesn’t interfere with her normal work we have to be careful cleaning her right hind (I usually just rest the toe on the ground) and the farrier is good about moving her slowly to avoid triggering it as much as possible. She has been servicably sound for 10 years (7 when we got her, 17 now).

Simply refusing to extend behind reads more as a possible arthritis issue that would limit his comfortable range of motion. Have you tried “warming him up” before asking as you would when riding? If he is more willing to let the leg be manipulated after some gentle exercise that is another clue arthritis is the primary cause.

The hind end is pretty complex and it can be hard to pinpoint the exact problem spot, especially since flexion and extension of the hock and stifle are connected.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=CERT;8934142]
My husband’s Belgian mare has shivers in her right hind and the big signifier is hyperflexion of the hind leg and a “shivering” of the haunch and tail when asked to pick it up and walking backwards. It’s closely linked to these two “learned” behaviors that require conscious effort from the horse. The MSU study noted lesions in the brain as a possible cause and there is debate as to whether it has a genetic portion and possibly related to physical injury as well (she had some major accident before we bought het that gave her high ringbone in her right fore). Ruby doesn’t do it when backing (yet) and while it doesn’t interfere with her normal work we have to be careful cleaning her right hind (I usually just rest the toe on the ground) and the farrier is good about moving her slowly to avoid triggering it as much as possible. She has been servicably sound for 10 years (7 when we got her, 17 now).

Simply refusing to extend behind reads more as a possible arthritis issue that would limit his comfortable range of motion. Have you tried “warming him up” before asking as you would when riding? If he is more willing to let the leg be manipulated after some gentle exercise that is another clue arthritis is the primary cause.

The hind end is pretty complex and it can be hard to pinpoint the exact problem spot, especially since flexion and extension of the hock and stifle are connected.[/QUOTE]

sorry to hear about your husband’s horse.

shivers is a problem with the cerebellum, it is proprioceptive. there is definitely a genetic correlation.

my guess is that shivers is polygenic. there is a noted correlation between very big/tall horses and the disease.

with some horses, it seems to come with age. it’s important to realize they are not being bad when they snatch the leg away, they are not aware of the limb and it bothers them - it takes a very special farrier to shoe them. an understanding and compassionate one.

[CERT]

She is an awesome mare and we’re extremely lucky and blessed she’s continued to be sound and healthy. It’s been a bit since I read through the study. I did fill out the survey, but never got around to sending in video when they were gathering their data for the shivers study. We’re well-aware it isn’t something she has conscious control over

[JB]

I would definitely get an appointment with both a MT and chiro - MT first, chiro a couple days later and, if it seems reasonable based on both their assessments and your wallet, the MT a few days after the chiro again.

My big heavy-bodied WB will this this when he’s having issues with his lower back and SI area

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=CERT;8934190]
She is an awesome mare and we’re extremely lucky and blessed she’s continued to be sound and healthy. It’s been a bit since I read through the study. I did fill out the survey, but never got around to sending in video when they were gathering their data for the shivers study. We’re well-aware it isn’t something she has conscious control over[/QUOTE]

it is great your farrier accommodates her. many think the horse is just being a toad.

here, it can be hard to find one so understanding. my closest friend of 15+ years went through it a few years ago with her prelim horse, 3/4 Trak 1/4 TB. it was heartbreaking. apparently, his dam (Trak/TB) showed signs several years after she was bred (he had 3 “siblings”) and by the time they realized it, it was too late to not breed her. hers seemed ‘latent’, but for her son (my friend’s horse) it became apparent at around ~5 years of age. two of her three offspring were affected.

there is still much we dont know about the disease. of course, in OP’s case, it could be something as simple as arthritis in the hocks or SI as well.

[HealthyasaHorse]

Please check out the link on the MSU Shiver’s page about submitting a video and possibly hair sample of your horse (on the right side half way down the page). This could be Shivers and if so, your horse could help in the research to figure out how to diagnose and possible prevent it!

https://cvm.msu.edu/research/faculty-research/valberg-laboratory/information-on-shivers

[Xanthoria]

Yeah sounds like shivers, I’m afraid.

There’s no research currently being done on this according to Dr Valberg (she didn’t get a grant this year) and AFAIK nobody else is looking into it. It’s progressive in about 75% of cases.

Dormosedan is useful if things get to the stage that shoeing is hard. Ace, Rompun etc, not so much.

Note that stress aggravates shivers - my horse will spasm if he get scared. Also seems like he spasms passing manure, and eating from the ground.

Shivers is diagnosed via sending a video to Dr Valberg: there’s no test for it yet, as the poster above says. Start there.

[AKB]

Have you tried giving him a dose of Banamine or other pain med an hour or two before the farrier comes? It will help you decide if it is pain related or neuro.

[Heinz_57]

Sorry to go MIA, Mr. Heinz has been out of town for 3 weeks and I have a 4 month old little one to contend with.

I have buted him for the farrier in the past, with no significant differences. And while he has not been recently adjusted, in the past when he has seen the chiro, the problem was still persistent. I plan to revisit both massage and chiro as I think he could benefit from them in general.

Also worth noting after doing more research is that he had significant weight troubles until the addition of a E/Se/Mg supplement.

Thankfully, he is already on 24/7 turnout and has not had any trouble with falls or lack of coordination. He still regularly naps in the morning sunshine at least once a day and does not seem to have trouble getting up or down.

I do plan to have him looked at when I can manage an appointment at the vet school.

[ShotenStar]

My little QH Trail mare has a similar issue. With her, it is an ongoing problem with an avulsion in the SI. Her pain / difficulties show up with the farrier and when we try to step over logs on the trails. Banamine and Ace help with the farrier - Banamine for the pain and Ace for her worrying about how much this might hurt. My farrier is very slow and kind with her but the chemical help really does help make the process easier for all of us.

Star