Hock and/or Coffin Joint Injections as Prevention vs. Injections as Treatment: Opinions Please!

[phippsie62]

The other day my daughter tried a very nice horse who’s been injected in the hocks and coffin joints ever since he began jumping at about age 5. (He’s 10 now.)

The owner explained that her veterinarian’s philosophy is that we ask h/j horses for a lot of sustained jumping efforts which are not natural to them, and therefore they need the support regular injections provide, even though the horse is not symptomatic. I don’t know the frequency of the injections for this particular horse, only that they’ve been administered on a regular schedule for five years now.

Some horses at our boarding barn also receive injections, but they didn’t start getting them until they were needed.

Any thoughts on these two different approaches, injecting as preventative, vs. injecting when necessary for the horse to continue comfortably in work?

[bt1]

Treatment only.

[Jungle_Monkey]

Treatment only for joint injections. IM adequan and similar products as preventative for sure. I didn’t think joint injections could be “preventative”??? What were they injecting him with? Maybe that makes a difference?

[browneyedcowgirl]

In my experience, we’ve only used injections as a treatment method only.
Our version of preventative medicine was proper jumping techniques, adequate rest, and high quality feed (which may include joint supplements depending on the horse).

Is there a chance that this owner is not being completely honest about the horse being symptomatic?
Or maybe they know that from a genetic standpoint this horse is prone to joint problems down the line?
A PPE with a vet YOU trust could probably clear this situation right up.
I don’t have an issue owning a horse that requires an injection schedule. Given that this horse is 10 now (and often taller horses’ joints deteriorate quicker than small horses, and I’m assuming this horse is tall), the injections are probably appropriate at this point anyways.

[NancyM]

Needles shouldn’t be poked into horses’ joints unless they HAVE to be. It shouldn’t be done on a whim, or in attempts to ward off what might happen in the future, or because everyone else is doing it so it must be good. There is always a risk of infection, and joint infections are really bad for future soundness. No, it is not a good thing to see happen in a horse you are considering purchasing. This is an example of a veterinarian padding his income, and the horse is the victim and the previous owners are the chumps. If no damage has occurred so far due to this “horse care”, his purchase could be considered a “rescue”, if you are into that sort of thing. Because this is not “good horsemanship”.

Joint damage can be due to a number of things: conformational flaw, poor riding, poor training, poor carriage, unfit horse for work required, ill fitting tack, poor farrier work, unfit living conditions, just to name a few of the more common sources. These things, if looked after in a professional manner, will tend to keep a horse sound for a long time. Other than the conformational flaw, these things are all dependent on horsemanship skill, and choosing a horse to purchase without obvious conformational flaw in the first place is also a skill.

“A sharp needle is no substitute for a sharp trainer”.

[OldLadyYoungOTTB]

We only do it as treatment and if they flex stiff but I’ve heard of trainers who do it whether it’s necessary or not as “maintenance”.

[MissAriel]

Although I have heard of trainers in multiple performance disciplines injecting the joints of young horses as a preventative, it is not a practice that I support. There are real risks associated with injecting joints (or any injection, really), so if there isn’t a reason to do it, I wouldn’t. And there is no data to support early injections delaying lameness or injury.

[stb]

I agree with everyone else, joint injections should only be done if needed to treat a problem. I wouldn’t take the risk otherwise.

[TWH_Girl]

Following…friend’s trainer (dressage) just recommended her horse start getting injections since he has “maxed out” physically at 9 yrs old. WTH? I mean what do you do- just inject everything? I told her to start with Adequan and chiro.

[Where_sMyWhite]

Joint injections would be something I would not do as a preventative as many have said. The risk of poking something into a joint is too high IMO (had a friend who lost her beloved horse to a joint injection that went septic ).

IM, supplements, etc are fine for prevention if you think they might help.

Just no to joints…

[Lyssabd]

Treatment ONLY. It’s a common misconception that joint injections can be used preventatively, especially in the HJ world (at least in my experience). It’s a big risk sticking needles into joints, so unless they NEED it, don’t do it. There is definitely science behind why joint injections do not help unless the horse needs them, but in a nutshell it can’t do much for an already healthy and working joint, it’s just increasing risk of infection to that area if you poke them when they don’t need it, and there’s really only so many times you can inject a horse in its liftetime. If they started a horse at 5, I’d not only question their horsemanship practices but would walk away from the horse knowing that when it’s older and likely needs injections, it’s going to become increasingly difficult to be able to inject, if at all.

[phippsie62]

Thanks all for your responses. This confirms my inclination–no injections unless needed!–and you’re also pointing out risks I hadn’t thought of.

[mvp]

@OldLadyYoungOTTB

We only do it as treatment and if they flex stiff but I’ve heard of trainers who do it whether it’s necessary or not as “maintenance”.

That’s not how I understand most trainers using the term, “maintenance.” To me, that’s a euphemistic term used to mask the fact that the horse has some form of arthritis.

And you need to know what the substances injected into joints actually do. If there’s no inflammatory process going on, there’s no physiological work being done by the steroids or hyaluronic acid put in there. So I don’t think anyone injects joints without there being some level of problem/beginnings or signs of osteoarthritis that they want to limit.

IMO, good pros inject joints as needed. That means to improve soundness where the horse actually is a bit lame there. That said, lots of high-end trainers have higher standards for soundness than does your average ammie. Each of these might explain why joints would be injected rather often.

That said, injecting the lower joints of the hock and injecting the coffin joint are, IMO, very different propositions. I think five years old is the youngest I have heard of a horse beginning to get regular (hock) injections. But I’ll bet young cutting horses and reiners get this kind of vet work done even earlier. Any five year old who was also getting regular coffin joint injections would alarm me. If I didn’t own it, I don’t think I’d buy it. But that might be due to my ignorance about how modern show horses are managed.

[mvp]

@TWH Girl

Following…friend’s trainer (dressage) just recommended her horse start getting injections since he has “maxed out” physically at 9 yrs old. WTH? I mean what do you do- just inject everything? I told her to start with Adequan and chiro.

I wouldn’t be surprised or afraid if someone told my about a 9 year old who needed the lower joints of his hocks injected.

[TWH_Girl]

@mvp

I wouldn’t be surprised or afraid if someone told my about a 9 year old who needed the lower joints of his hocks injected.

I wouldn’t necessarily be surprised, but the question is whether injections should be done to prevent or treat. A trainer telling someone their horse is maxed out is vague at best. If I hear specifically from a vet there is an issue and an injection is a good form of treatment, great. This same trainer just injected 5 joints on her 21 yr old to keep him going. Whatever, to each their own, and I do get my 16 yr old injected as needed. But I would avoid injecting a 9 yr old unless there was really something going on. How many 30 yr olds just get their knee injected to run faster?

[x-halt-salute]

@mvp

And you need to know what the substances injected into joints actually do. If there’s no inflammatory process going on, there’s no physiological work being done by the steroids or hyaluronic acid put in there. So I don’t think anyone injects joints without there being some level of problem/beginnings or signs of osteoarthritis that they want to limit.

This! ^^^

There are statements from some knowledgeable vets in this article from the Horse that pretty much say injections in a normal joint won’t do anything, do not prevent arthritis, and are not recommended. Which makes perfect sense given how injectible steroids and HA work in the joint.

If someone told me they injected joints as a preventative measure, I’d suspect that there was already some clinical lameness going on that prompted the decision to inject those particular joints.

[phippsie62]

Thanks so much for this link! I would also be concerned that repeated injections (over years) of a healthy joint would promote the formation of scar tissue which would make injections more difficult to administer if and when the horse really needed them.

[beau159]

@phippsie62

The other day my daughter tried a very nice horse who’s been injected in the hocks and coffin joints ever since he began jumping at about age 5. (He’s 10 now.)

The owner explained that her veterinarian’s philosophy is that we ask h/j horses for a lot of sustained jumping efforts which are not natural to them, and therefore they need the support regular injections provide, even though the horse is not symptomatic.

If you were a runner, would you go to the doctor every 6 months to have your knees injected with steroids, even though your knees feel fine?

I doubt there would be one person who would say “yes” to that question. I know that horses can’t speak to us, but it still just baffles me that people take that approach with horses, and inject joints “just because” they think they should be injected.

I am a firm believer that joints should be injected WHEN the horse tells you they need them. It might be a decrease in performance. It might be poor flexions at the vet. Or it might be a new change in behavior. But no matter how the horse tries to tell you they need them, then yes, they should get them.

But they should NOT get the injections if they do not need them. You don’t need to unnecessarily sticking needles into joints. You have a risk of infection, scar tissue from repeated injections, and you are sticking extra fluid and ingredients into joints that are not natural.

Personally, I would really, really, really have to like the horse in question, to consider buying one that has been injected for so many years without a reason.

And I would find out who the vet is, to make sure I never use them.

IMO

[TWH_Girl]

@beau159

If you were a runner, would you go to the doctor every 6 months to have your knees injected with steroids, even though your knees feel fine?

I doubt there would be one person who would say “yes” to that question. I know that horses can’t speak to us, but it still just baffles me that people take that approach with horses, and inject joints “just because” they think they should be injected.

I am a firm believer that joints should be injected WHEN the horse tells you they need them. It might be a decrease in performance. It might be poor flexions at the vet. Or it might be a new change in behavior. But no matter how the horse tries to tell you they need them, then yes, they should get them.

But they should NOT get the injections if they do not need them. You don’t need to unnecessarily sticking needles into joints. You have a risk of infection, scar tissue from repeated injections, and you are sticking extra fluid and ingredients into joints that are not natural.

Personally, I would really, really, really have to like the horse in question, to consider buying one that has been injected for so many years without a reason.

And I would find out who the vet is, to make sure I never use them.

IMO

This was my point too!