Hock Pain?

[zelle]

Good morning, friends. I did a search on hock pain on the forum and came up some helpful info but not enough to satisfy my burning question. Vet coming today. I have an almost 6 year old big boned Oldenburg with massive movement. He looks like a dressage horse but my plan is eventing. I bred him. I have a full set of x-rays and I’ve flexed him twice now. The first flexion a year ago and it was zero all the way around. “I’d be out of business if everyone owned one of these,” said the vet.
A year later (novice level now), the horse doesn’t want to sit down. And his flexions are 1’s instead of 0’s on his hocks. Not a very high score, right? Kind of normal for a horse in work. His tail is swishing during work which isn’t normal for him. His back feels tight. He won’t let me sit the trot until very very late in the ride. And when I canter him I have to be in jumping position or he’s bucking with clear discomfort. Also until so late in the ride that we’re both tired. When I try sitting I can feel him stiffen under the saddle.
Saddle Pain? I actually cycled through 4 different saddles with different shim arrangements yesterday. Nothing changed. He looks ok on the lunge until you attach side reins and then he’s not going anywhere. And that is a new development.
Also when it’s saddle pain, it’s similar except that he doesn’t tolerate it. I had a saddle on him once with a broken tree (I know, I know, how could I have missed that??) he just put me on the ground. Quick. I felt his back twitch a couple times and I sat in and asked him for a transition thinking he was just being disobedient. And suddenly I was on the ground looking up at him. Totally out of character for this gentle soul. I went back to the tack room, traded saddles and he was fine.

So he spends a lot of time early in the ride trying to go around with his head very low. Instantly when you get on, he snatches the reins down (he’s very polite normally, so this is weird) and he wants to stay there or he gets a little bucky. and tail swishy. Give him bute and he’s a lot better. Use the Bemer on him and he’s maybe somewhat better.
I hate to muddy the waters by saying that the x-rays show a large hock spur. Because the vet isn’t concerned about it and he flexes the same on each side. However it should be said that the spur is on the right hock. When he’s going left, he wants to fall hard to left (into the circle). Going right, he still wants that shoulder left. But he’s a dead quiet and ultra-flexible guy who would prefer sideways to forward.

A couple days off improves nothing. It’s possible that it’s worse after rest.
The very first indication that something was bothering him was a couple months ago he started to get “stabby” canter-to-trot transitions. He would just jam a hind leg into the ground. I could correct it by leg yielding into the trot but he would actively try to beat me to it by just dropping out with a stab of the hind leg into the ground. Extremely uncomfortable to ride.
The vet said he would move to hock injections next. It wasn’t his first inclination because he didn’t flex poorly enough. He’s coming today. Does this sound like hock pain to you folks? Would you inject or go to Adequan/Legend or something else? Would you do any other investigating? Horses in my experience that have needed hock injections flexed way worse and weren’t bucking and tail swishing. They were just not going as well as before. it was a much more muted cry for help. This horse is screaming by comparison but the flexions don’t scream sore hocks. The back palpation doesn’t scream sore back. Vet says, maybe he’s stoic. But he’s clearly not.

[ellisrun]

Given all you have described, without knowing him, I would inject hocks next. For comparison when my horses hocks begin to bother him he begins cross cantering in stressful situations, back becomes sore, and can drift left more jumping. He x-rays clean, and on flexions alone is also a 1, so shouldn’t necessarily “need” injections but over the years these are the consistent signals I get from him when its time. I also keep mine on Legends which I thinks helps me only have to inject annually. I also began injections at 7 yrs of age on a 17.3 hand TB that had gone prelim, but now is training level and below. Mine also will drop me when it’s saddle related, so I doubt he’s being stoic through that Good luck!

[bornfreenowexpensive]

You need to find out what is wrong before injecting in my opinion. And while it could be hocks…blocking would let you know. I just hate injecting without diagnosis. Honestly…that sounds a lot like back or neck pain too. Have you taken any x-rays of his back? Good luck! If he was one of mine…it probably would end up being more than one thing! But likely fixable…with a good hit to the wallet! This is the one time it would be nice if they spoke…but he is telling you the best he can that something is wrong and you are doing right by him by trying to make it better!

[joiedevie99]

At that age, I wouldn’t inject without blocking first to confirm you are right. Flexions don’t always tell the whole story. If he doesn’t block to the hocks, I’d look at back and SI.

[CupOJavaa]

I agree that I would block his hocks before injecting. He is way too young to say “yup probably hocks, let’s inject.” Some horses do need injections at that age but I would want to KNOW first. After blocking if he is still not right then X-ray that right hock. Then start looking somewhere else. Has he seen a great chiro yet? It may be a good idea to have a chiro out a week or two before the vet to see if a problem area can be better narrowed down. But the vet has probably already come by by now. What did he think?

[zelle]

Thanks all!! . Vet came. (Love this guy - he stands out in the arena and watches you ride to see the problems you’re having) We flexed again after he watched us try to go about our work. He had me stay mounted for the flexions (I love that because then I can FEEL it). And nothing. Vet said he wasn’t sore at all. I felt 2 steps on the worst flexion. Nothing elsewhere…

Vet said that in watching him go it looks like it’s not the saddle. Or the hock. Or the back. But “it’s somewhere in this area” he indicated the entire front end including neck and head. He’s thinking neck, as Bornfree also mentioned. He said the neck muscle was so tight and he’s not going forward through his neck. That his back end moves great and it all stops up front. He suggested a bone scan. Ha. Ha. (That’s where he’s more a vet than a realist.)

My mind went straight to the head shaking he does on the cross ties and the ramming of his head downward when you put on the bridle. And the way he tries to get away from you when you get to the bridle. (I recently thought that behavior was due to the teenage help) I asked my friend to grab another bridle. I took off his bridle (Micklem with a KK) and put on a PS of Sweden with a Myler boucher. I don’t know what part of the old arrangement is offensive (I’m going to guess that Micklem noseband - which was not on tight but it sits low naturally).

It took a little time but wow did he feel great. He was nice in my hand, accepted a half halt, started doing lateral work better, was way less bucky right away and it went away completely in 10 minutes. I’ve had horses object to Micklems before but it was more obvious right away. (I have a TB that flips her tongue over the bit and rears up when she wears a Micklem - that’s pretty obvious!!) This was a slow sneak up of getting worse and worse. I think he is sore around his mouth from it. Again it wasn’t tight -it doesn’t work to put a snug noseband or a tough bit on a naturally dead quiet horse. The vet mentioned that the sound of his breathing during work was completely different between the two bridles.

Like Ellisrun said about her horse - he also had a drift over fences. We also jumped him yesterday and he was straight again. Like he used to be when I had him in a flash bridle. Does that make sense to you guys? I’m so humbled. And apologetic toward this horse. Months in a torture mask. Thanks for reading and sharing your experiences.
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[goodmorning]

Have you had a quality dentist take a look at him.

[mychestnutvalentine]

Wow- sounds exactly like my horse! I switched from a Red Barn to a Ps of Sweden after some dental work from a dentist and now my horse has quit head shaking and is going better than ever. I pursued the back heavily- reflocked saddle, massage, etc and it didn’t make a difference.
I bought the PS for the crown piece and the nose band. It’s all very wide and a little over the top but I honestly think the wider surface space helps with spreading the pressure.
Dental work can work wonders!

[Willesdon]

Just as a general comment, a big-boned, almost 6 year old WB, working at novice level makes me think that some time off, standing in a pasture, eating grass and chilling for a couple of months, might be very helpful for body and mind. That is still a young horse and WBs take time to mature, they’re much slower than TBs.

[RacetrackReject]

My gut while reading most of your original post was thinking that he might be out in the jaw/poll/neck area. Have you had any chiro work done on him?

[PossumHorse]

Be aware that a high suspensory spain can cause many of these issues too. If you have a vet do nerve blocks during a lameness exam, a high suspensory problem will block with the hock. One behavior cue out of work, is a preference for standing with hind heels raised. Some will build a little hill in their favorite hangout spot.