Hollow/stiff side

[netg]

I have major asymmetries, so I am always fighting to get myself even, and always have more challenges one way than another. I have found with my mare, I have a much harder time getting her to carry herself well in her hollow direction, specifically for the reasons here.

Yes, this is a typical general audience high level article, but I appreciated seeing an article which stated the hollow side can be more of a problem.
https://dressagetoday.com/instruction/how-can-i-make-the-half-pass-flow

My gelding’s hollow side is his easier side, but he is short backed and very uphill, so he can’t really fake bend. My mare is longer and lateral bend is easy, so she can fake it - which is why the stiffer side actually gets more correct bend. Any observations/thoughts from your own horses?

[piedmontfields]

I would say that in my experience, the hollow side often corresponds to the weaker hind. In most horses, this is the right side/right hind, and my mare is like this, too.

I definitely find everything to the right/hollow side takes more attention for us—like at times a shocking amount of right indirect rein to position the shoulders. I will mention that when I got a good dentist to address some teeth issues on the right side, we started making huge progress in her willingness not only to connect on the right rein but also to weight the right hind.

To our stiff/left side, I always aware of riding shoulder-fore/shoulder-in as needed, but to the right, I’m always thinking straighter/line her up + stack her up to position her shoulders correctly. The intensity of this has changed over time, as she is straighter than a few years ago but it still takes attention.

[OdieJump]

I have a horse that also had a hollow back. I think you should stop focusing on their bend and get to a little more on their top line. Work on having your horse stretch her head down into your hands which will improve your horses top line. There are a lot of different ways to teach this so do whatever your trainer or you feel like works best for you. Start from the ground, use side reins if you can. When they start riding long and low they’re back should round and they’re back legs should come up behind them. Also make sure you have proper impulsion. If they have no impulsion you don’t be able to get anything done. A steady rhythm is important. Additionally when you ride you want your horse to be extremely sensitive to your leg. So any slight nudge should have a response from your horse. Once your horse is on the bit when you ride, responsive to your leg, and has good impulsion. Then you can work on your bend. You’ll have to do a lot of reading (that’s what I did) to figure all of this stuff out if you don’t have a trainer.

[netg]

@OdieJump

I have a horse that also had a hollow back. I think you should stop focusing on their bend and get to a little more on their top line. Work on having your horse stretch her head down into your hands which will improve your horses top line. There are a lot of different ways to teach this so do whatever your trainer or you feel like works best for you. Start from the ground, use side reins if you can. When they start riding long and low they’re back should round and they’re back legs should come up behind them. Also make sure you have proper impulsion. If they have no impulsion you don’t be able to get anything done. A steady rhythm is important. Additionally when you ride you want your horse to be extremely sensitive to your leg. So any slight nudge should have a response from your horse. Once your horse is on the bit when you ride, responsive to your leg, and has good impulsion. Then you can work on your bend. You’ll have to do a lot of reading (that’s what I did) to figure all of this stuff out if you don’t have a trainer.

Huh? You’re basically responding to an entirely different post than anything on this thread. Interesting reflection of yourself, I suppose.

[Scribbler]

@netg

Huh? You’re basically responding to an entirely different post than anything on this thread. Interesting reflection of yourself, I suppose.

Yeah my thought too. Hollow back and hollow side are two different problems.

I believe Odie is riding Western though, and I am not sure Western always pays attention to hollow sides. For instance in Western Pleasure it seems perfectly OK to canter down the rail haunches in ( not correct renvers ) going sideways effectively.

That would not be OK in either dressage or jumping.

[piedmontfields]

Another observation from my current horse: To address hollow side issues with straightness, I had to really pick up and commit to contact on that hollow side rein–as the connection related to the weaker hind and to hollowness. This was a bit of a mind game initially, as it is so easy (at least for me) to think that it’s the stiff side that needs to be softer (including in the hand)----when actually the hollow side needed to be more positive and present.

I still do my reward strokes/pets on the stiffer side 90%+ of the time, as that is the rein where I can always soften—even though Miss Mare is still hoping it might be the right rein that I release!!

[x-halt-salute]

@netg

I have major asymmetries, so I am always fighting to get myself even, and always have more challenges one way than another. I have found with my mare, I have a much harder time getting her to carry herself well in her hollow direction, specifically for the reasons here.

Yes, this is a typical general audience high level article, but I appreciated seeing an article which stated the hollow side can be more of a problem.
https://dressagetoday.com/instruction/how-can-i-make-the-half-pass-flow

My gelding’s hollow side is his easier side, but he is short backed and very uphill, so he can’t really fake bend. My mare is longer and lateral bend is easy, so she can fake it - which is why the stiffer side actually gets more correct bend. Any observations/thoughts from your own horses?

Thanks for sharing this and striking up a conversation. Very timely, as less flow in the half passes to the right is something I’ve been working on.

My horse’s weaker leg is her left hind, and she tends to be hollow to the left. But I’m the opposite – my right hip is pretty messed up and in the half pass I have trouble keeping weight over the right seat bone as I use my legs to maintain bend to the right and ask my horse to step over with the left. I’m pretty sure that too much of my weight is ending up outside of the horse’s center of gravity in the half-passes to the right much of the time. Ironically this is a much bigger problem for me in the trot half pass than the canter half pass.

I find it much easier to straighten out “fake bend” by being careful about the position of the shoulder and staying conscious of the connection through the outside rein than it is to create bend to the stiff side. My mare has a pretty average length back for her size and lateral bend has always come easily for her, but my own asymmetries seem to come into play in making it easier to straighten out the overbend in the shoulder/neck than to get good bend on the stiff side.

[Wicky]

x - I have a similar set of problems and have recently discovered part of my contribution to the problem. One of my horses goes haunches in to the left. My right seatbone used to be back, my right knee up, right foot forward, and left shoulder forward, and crap connection with my left rein. When trying to do half pass right, I could not get my weight to the right and ended up shoving with my left seatbone.

Turns out I had to do a bunch of corrections, mostly with my center. The first thing I did was to bring my right seatbone forward. However, this led to chronic saddle sore under my right seatbone, and did nothing for my left shoulder, right knee or right foot. I had to bring my right pubic bone down - suddenly, my other problems resolved 80%, and when I think about weighting my right pubic bone rather than trying to push weight into my right foot, half pass is MUCH better. Poor horse, though, he now has to struggle to become more correct after years of doing what I was asking for (not what I wanted).

[piedmontfields]

Wicky, thank you for writing the notes about using the drop of your pubic bone to help you ground that same sitbone. I think I will find this helpful in our canter/FC work!

[merrygoround]

Thinking of putting weight in one stirrup or another , and I never could understand the concept, can also have the effect of stiffening that leg, making it less effective. Simply repositioning the legs can and will shift your weight.

By keeping the inside leg at the girth, and bending your outside leg at knee, bringing your lower leg back, will put your weight on the inside seat bone with no need to exaggerate the position. And yes, it therefore lowers the attached pubic bone but be careful not to focus on that and tip into crotch seat.

[x-halt-salute]

@merrygoround

Thinking of putting weight in one stirrup or another , and I never could understand the concept, can also have the effect of stiffening that leg, making it less effective. Simply repositioning the legs can and will shift your weight.

By keeping the inside leg at the girth, and bending your outside leg at knee, bringing your lower leg back, will put your weight on the inside seat bone with no need to exaggerate the position. And yes, it therefore lowers the attached pubic bone but be careful not to focus on that and tip into crotch seat.

I’ve never understood the concept of putting weight in one stirrup, either.

I’m fighting against injury with my bad direction, I’m afraid, and for me the leg positioning you describe doesn’t automatically get my weight distribution where it needs to be. I suspect that in my case it’s going to be one of those gradual processes of adjusting my proprioception and working (out of the saddle) on hip mobility for me to get the half pass to the right going more smoothly.

[netg]

OMG. Thank you merrygoround and x-halt-salute for saying that. It has never worked for me. It makes me stand in that stirrup and remove all weight from that side. Lately, thinking about bending my knee fixes it, because of the specific ways I get off - but weighting the stirrup has never worked for me.

[TequilaMockingbird]

@piedmontfields

Another observation from my current horse: To address hollow side issues with straightness, I had to really pick up and commit to contact on that hollow side rein–as the connection related to the weaker hind and to hollowness. This was a bit of a mind game initially, as it is so easy (at least for me) to think that it’s the stiff side that needs to be softer (including in the hand)----when actually the hollow side needed to be more positive and present.

I gave this a try yesterday and it was very helpful. My horse bends easily when going left/clockwise and avoids bending and is hard to get her “through” going right/counter clockwise.

Usually when I am going left, I can let my inside right hand be soft as she stays on the outside left rein easily. But it’s very difficult to do the opposite, with the contact in the outside right rein and slack inside left rein.

I tried keeping more contact on the right rein while going left and it was much easier to get her through when we changed directions and the right rein became my new outside rein.

[piedmontfields]

@TequilaMockingbird

I gave this a try yesterday and it was very helpful. …I tried keeping more contact on the right rein while going left and it was much easier to get her through when we changed directions and the right rein became my new outside rein.

Glad you found this helpful. I agree, it is about creating genuine thoroughness (through both reins).

A related tip I learned at one point was that when you feel resistance to roundness/throughness on the inside rein (aka inside rein, inside hind leg), ask for more roundness via the outside rein. It’s another case of “do the opposite” of what might be tempting. It’s funny that when we work horses, we usually need to do the opposite of what they find easy. It’s not that different for us!