I do have a chestnut with a VERY blond flaxen mane and a tail that contains about every color you can imagine, who is primarily Holsteiner, but is registered Zangersheide. His sire and dam are both pretty plain bays. He also has a funny speckled sock which I’ve never had on another one and can be seen on the second pic.
Pedigree is:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/lantus+z
I have a mare with the same kind of “sock” (definitely not a Holsteiner- Saddlebred!). There is a name for it, and I think we’ve talked about it on here before…just can’t remember what it’s called. :lol: My mare’s is on the same leg as your guy. 
Caitlin
When those spots are on the coronet band, they are called ermine spots.
When higher up the leg - distal spots
They are typically thought of as “white suppression” indicators, meaning if not for their presence, the horse would likely have had more white.
[QUOTE=JB;5212937]
Note that I am not talking about Holsteiners specifically, just color genetics in general:
You absolutely can end up with a buckskin if one parent is a smoky black, which is very, very easily mistaken for regular black. There are also smoky browns (brown-based “buckskin” as opposed to bay-based), which someone might just call brown, or dark bay. Yeager is a perfect example[/QUOTE]
That’s what I was trying to say too!
[QUOTE=Serigraph;5212831]
Well as I said I don’t know about color and breeding it. My vet called him a light chestnut and others have referred to him as palomino or buckskin. I think he’s light chestnut. He’s more golden than my other horse who is a red chestnut. He does have a bright flaxen mane for sure though. He was also born in 2002 and has TB and a bit of App in him.
http://prairiethunder.com/Graphics/ChaucersPedigree.jpg[/QUOTE]
That’s a Holsteiner Crosss, not a Holsteiner. All it takes is one rogue colored gene to come in and you can get dilutes, spots, etc…
Ahhh, sorry, I did miss your post!
apples and outcrosses
my earlier input referred to verband holsteiners.
examples cited in the subsequent thread are replete with outcross blood which not only easily explain the colour issues, but also remove the conversation from the subject area i attempted to address earlier.
there may be folks interested in the more far-reaching outcrosses (i recall one conversation with count rantzau in which one wasn’t certain whether to be horrified or highly amused when ‘appy-steiners’ were brought up).
either way, these are not, in the context in which i offered my previous comments, holsteiners. if it helps to clarify, there is no surprise with a chestnut ahha horse and no end to the genetic sources that colour may have come from. we have here an outcross book relative to holstein.
Hmm, thanks, but I don’t think that is the name we talked about at the time…maybe they have a “common” name too! My mare (definitely sabino!) seems like she should have a tall stocking on the leg, but instead it’s just a series of close spots that goes almost to the hock. [URL=“http://pets.webshots.com/photo/1264935814065236473CUZunY”]Pic
Caitlin
Just glancing through www.allbreedpedigree.com it appears that Marlon did have Holsteiner registered dilute offspring, however all of their offspring is registered with other breeds (BWP, Zwiebucker, etc).
Now allbreedpedigree is VERY incomplete and inaccurate and I have NO first hand knowledge, just a theory… but is it possible that the verband registered his dilute foals but would not later not approve them into the mare and stallion books, thus ending the spread of the dilute Holsteiners?
Your horse’s grandsire Chardonay was a chestnut Holsteiner stallion.
If Marlon did have dilute offspring, can anyone suggest where the dilute gene came from? It would be interesting to find another TB line that has had dilute hiding.
I’d guess it came from the mare’s side… just as a numbers game.
If the sire, Tamerlane, was carrying a dilute gene (perhaps mistaken as a light bay when he was actually a buckskin, or a sooty black) I suspect it would be noticed sooner due to the number of offspring… You’d have dilute foals showing up in his first crop. However a dark bucksin mare that was mistaken for a bay would be much easier to miss.
Other dilutes that have “popped up” are Lucky Two Bits, who was the mother of Glitter Please and Milkie. Both are from “bay” parents who also could have been hiding a dilute gene.
Blandford and Sir Galahad each appear in two of the three pedigrees, but neither in all three. Not saying either are the source - just looking for a common denominator.
Ah, gotcha - that is just a roaned sock
Some Holsteiners do throw a lot of white and are I would guarantee you Sabinos. The Late Liostro and Sabotage for instance through tons of color - lots of high white and big blazes, white on lips. Con Caletto also throws a lot of white markings. Liostro also through chestnuts and has several approved Chestnut Stallions sons (Liosto is one example).
Here are a few examples:
Sabotage son http://www.pbase.com/finnskeeper/sabotage_gelding&page=1
Sabotage son http://www.pbase.com/finnskeeper/sabotage_stallion&page=2
Liosto http://www.pbase.com/finnskeeper/image/108975681
Con Caletto colt http://www.pbase.com/finnskeeper/three_year_old_colt
Con Caletto filly http://www.pbase.com/finnskeeper/three_year_old_filly_one
Con Caletto colt http://www.pbase.com/finnskeeper/foal_two
You can’t discount the carriage background on the color preferences in Holstein. Bays with some small socks for flash - you try for a relatively similar grouping when you are going to want to be matching horses for carriage. Then, you know and become familiar with that, so I can understand the breeders who got chestnuts or light duns or buckskins basically selling them out of Holstein (or otherwise culling), especially back when Marlonxx was standing.
His line is one of the less well preserved as well, so between being used on a strongly bay mare base, having his get culled through for outcrops in color and not having bunches bunches of stallion sons, I can see how it might happen that human intervention would keep you from finding the variation you might otherwise expect his introduction to have produced.
buschkn I forgot to add that a lot of the Liostros have that leg spotting and one one of the Con Caletto mares I posted pictures of really had an extreme example of it on all four socks http://www.pbase.com/finnskeeper/three_year_old_filly_one&page=2
It’s funny because I often don’t know the names of horses when I am taking pictures of them and in my notes I had called this filly Ms. Spotty Socks
http://www.pbase.com/finnskeeper/image/115540357
THOSE are the distal and ermine spots I was referring to initially
There certainly are some stallions like Carpaccio, Alcatraz, Caretino that are known for throwing chrome, they are often sold instead of kept for breeding stock. What they don’t see is dilute colors like buckskin and palamino. My filly from this year is a Honey bay, with 4 white stockings and a blaze. Lucky for her she was born in the US and not in Germany. Her dam has the ermine spots, but is a very dark bay. Her winter coat makes her look black.
Tim
I wish Gwen would pop in here to elaborate. I believe she has some expertise on the subject of Marlon.
Wikipedia articles need to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. The nice thing about them is that if they have references - which they are supposed to have - the references are listed right there and easy to check. Of course, many people are not do-it-yourselfers…and professors are wise to tell students to avoid it, since you can’t teach healthy suspicion.
In the meantime, enjoy the Eylers article on him: http://www.horse-gate.com/jh/horses/en/marlonxx.html
From which I give you the following quote:
“The aforementioned Ma Soleil was clothed in an Isabell coloured yellowish bay coat, a characteristic that is not infrequently observed in Marlon xx’s progeny. Some of these were systematically used for Isabell breeding. Marlon xx progeny with this colouring are often found in Hungary today.”
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