Holsteiner color question

There is a reference in the Wikipedia article on Holsteiners to the color of the horses. One statement that I found VERY intriguing, given history, is that the improvement stallion Marlon xx (Is this the Tamerlane one or the Asterios one?) was a dark buckskin and had some Palomino and buckskin get in Holstein.

So two questions: 1) Is this true?
2) I thought Holstein frowned on chestnuts, so Palomino would have been rare, but there should have been more than a few buckskins. What happened to them all?

Nothing about the colours but Wikepedia is notoriously unreliable (or so my professors tell me).

He was the Tamerlane one

http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=1453&maxniveau=6

Not sure… but these days they specifically say they do not allow dilutes or horses with a white spot larger than a dinner plate.

I don’t know anything about Holsteiner color breeding, but my new horse is Holsteiner and light chestnut/buckskin with flaxen mane and tail. He sire and dam were black and dark bay.

[QUOTE=Nod Hill Farm;5212529]
He was the Tamerlane one

http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=1453&maxniveau=6[/QUOTE]

That link says he is brown.
The Holstein verband doesn’t even like grey. Not saying one might be a holsteiner, but the verband wouldn’t be promoting breeding for color (or any color other than bay or brown or dark brown.)

[QUOTE=Serigraph;5212559]
I don’t know anything about Holsteiner color breeding, but my new horse is Holsteiner and light chestnut/buckskin with flaxen mane and tail. He sire and dam were black and dark bay.[/QUOTE]

interesting discussion, and one which raises surprisingly strong feelings in holstein.

there are chestnuts but it would be fair to say there is a general - if not universal - prejudice against them. prime culprits in the gene pool include calido and also more recently quidam. from memory calido’s mother was chestnut but that didn’t seem to hurt him!

i certainly have never seen any buckskins, dunns nor palamino’s when there and could easily imagine that if its already tough on the chestnuts, it could get much harder again on those colours.

serigraph, do you know where your horse’s colour comes from? if not, throw out the pedigree i suspect we would be able to locate where it has come from in his pedigree.

there are other interesting theories held by the old farmers in holstein, such as acorado being the only one of over a dozen full siblings with his colour and also being the only one to succeed to the extent that he did. also with capitol breeding there is a belief around a genetic connection with the grey colouring he often passes down associated with athletic ability.

it gets poo-poo’d by geneticists and sometimes on here, but only by those who have never produced as successfully for the top of the sport as some of those same old farmers in holstein!

[QUOTE=Serigraph;5212559]
I don’t know anything about Holsteiner color breeding, but my new horse is Holsteiner and light chestnut/buckskin with flaxen mane and tail. He sire and dam were black and dark bay.[/QUOTE]

Your horse can’t be chestnut and buckskin. One is Red based, the other Black.
Buckskin requires a dilute gene and neither a black or a dark bay would have a dilute.
Chestnuts can have light manes without having a dilute gene.

So yes, please post the pedigree.

[QUOTE=S A McKee;5212732]
Your horse can’t be chestnut and buckskin. One is Red based, the other Black.
Buckskin requires a dilute gene and neither a black or a dark bay would have a dilute.
Chestnuts can have light manes without having a dilute gene.

So yes, please post the pedigree.[/QUOTE]

Not entirely true… Smokey black can appear black BUT given that dilutes are not allowed, I do think it’s much more probable that the horse in question is just a garden variety chestnut with a flaxen main and tail…

[QUOTE=JWB;5212743]
Not entirely true… Smokey black can appear black BUT given that dilutes are not allowed, I do think it’s much more probable that the horse in question is just a garden variety chestnut with a flaxen main and tail…[/QUOTE]

I think we all know that.
That’s why I asked for the pedigree…

Well as I said I don’t know about color and breeding it. My vet called him a light chestnut and others have referred to him as palomino or buckskin. I think he’s light chestnut. He’s more golden than my other horse who is a red chestnut. He does have a bright flaxen mane for sure though. He was also born in 2002 and has TB and a bit of App in him.

http://prairiethunder.com/Graphics/ChaucersPedigree.jpg

I know the Holsteiner breeders prefer and hold true to the darker colors with minimal white – but WHY? Not asking to provoke any negatives, just an honest question. Why the prejudice against chestnut or chrome?
PennyG

I’m curious too…

Bay with no/little white were easier to match to a fancy carriage team. That was the original use for the Holsteiner.

My mare was solid bay no white (Calando I from a Lord Incipit mare) Very traditional.

Grey wasn’t very accepted till Capitol.

This is a great example to use. There isn’t a Holsteiner alive that has App blood. This horse couldn’t be registered by AHHA, and especially the Verband. Most breeders would not refer to your horse as a Holsteiner. This is why there was so much confusion. However, it is partly why there is so much prejudice against color. My Calando I mare might not be available it it weren’t for this prejudice. Bahlmann bred Sonate to Marlon to produce a chestnut mare called Huld. He sold the mare because she was chestnut. When asked why, he said because it didn’t come from his mare. You see, its not that they don’t produce great athletes, its that they don’t like not knowing what else they got. The vast majority of Holsteiners are Dark bay. Grey was actually not well liked originally either, until Capitol made it popular. Its predictability that is important. A solid foundation of predictable traits that are only tweaked towards perfection. When a chestnut pops out they don’t like not knowing what else they got besides the color.

Your horse could be Palamino or one of the other dilutes, but its not a Holsteiner, and it didn’t come from the Holsteiner blood. It would have come from either the TB’s or the App.

Tim

Yes he’s HolX, but from his pedigree looks like mostly Hol and I saw pics of the dam and she was very dark. It’s not unusual to get a light chestnut with flaxen mane/tail from dark bays or black?

[QUOTE=Serigraph;5212831]
Well as I said I don’t know about color and breeding it. My vet called him a light chestnut and others have referred to him as palomino or buckskin. I think he’s light chestnut. He’s more golden than my other horse who is a red chestnut. He does have a bright flaxen mane for sure though. He was also born in 2002 and has TB and a bit of App in him.

http://prairiethunder.com/Graphics/ChaucersPedigree.jpg[/QUOTE]

:confused:
That horse is not a Holsteiner.

I went out to look at my Holsteiner boy (by Camiros out of an Alcatraz mare) and looked around the farm trying to figure out which bay was the one we were going to be looking at. I was shocked when the breeder haltered the copper penny chestnut with 3 white socks and white on his face. Totally not something I expected!

Very interesting to now know why you don’t see too many of them, so thank you all for the information :slight_smile:

Note that I am not talking about Holsteiners specifically, just color genetics in general:

You absolutely can end up with a buckskin if one parent is a smoky black, which is very, very easily mistaken for regular black. There are also smoky browns (brown-based “buckskin” as opposed to bay-based), which someone might just call brown, or dark bay. Yeager is a perfect example

Alcatraz, although an amazing broodmare sire, does throw A LOT of chrome. You can almost see them when they come, big, lots of white, and Huge jump. That was a good mare for Camiros I would imagine.

Tim