Honcho Pony has a Problem. Colic? Ulcers?

[lenapesadie]

Sorry this will be long folks.

Honcho pony is laying down way more than normal. Seems unwilling to get up. Once stayed down long enough he was unable to get up resulting in him spinning around on his side and getting cast; we flipped him over and he got up immediately. He’s laying down and pooping / farting heavily while laying down. He’s leaving some feed in his tub but tearing into hay. Appears sucked up / tucked up. Vet noted over active gut sounds and his general displeasure with her listening to his guts towards the hind end. Honcho pony is otherwise in super condition. Lean and shiny. He does have a heart murmur. He does not work.

Leaving some feed in tub been going on about a month (I thought he just hated the new Cu/Zn supps but maybe the timing in that is a coincidence). The laying down more than normal about two weeks. He got cast yesterday. Today he did the lying down to fart and poop again but hopped up when I encouraged him to do so by clapping my hands.

Vet thinks ulcers (I think she suspects hindgut ulcers), a very strange case of gas colic or some other digestive ailment. We added outlast and probiotics and are monitoring him closely. What do you folks think?

More lengthy background and details

A pony kept showing up at my house. So I kept him. There’s a thread about it somewhere. Anyways, it’s been a little over a year since he moved in. When he first arrived, he had cow patty manure with a bit of fecal water. Tried a few things: probiotics, psyllium, beet pulp, one AC during summer just for the heck of it. Dewormed and monitored with FECs done by vet. Teeth floated twice (by vet, under sedation, with speculum). Manure firmed up eventually with only occasional loose piles and no evidence of fecal water. Attributed this to beet pulp and have kept that in his diet consistently since.

Bucket meals; split into am and pm; fed soaked
2 lbs ish Omega Match
4 cups dry beet pulp shreds, no molasses
2 tbsp salt
Apple a day electrolytes (about half a scoop currently, more in summer)
Hoof supplement - mix n match of biotin, Cu, Zn
ETA: Vit E - Santa Cruz - quit supplementing this mid summer - need to start again - the RB has Vit E in it though so it’s not like he’s not getting some Vit E

All of this has been the same since he arrived. Only change was a recent switch from MadBarn CuZn to Uckele Cu/Zn

Added Outlast and Systemiq probiotics today per vet

Cut to this fall and Honcho pony thinks he’s freezing to death. Him and the big horse seem footie. Order more blankets, get podiatry films and have a metabolic panel run. Bloodwork all WNL. Big horse declared over conditioned. Podiatry films show a little extra toe and some slight imbalances for Honcho but Big horse’s films are worse. Hired new farrier. One rebalance trim and both horses walking better. No footiness since. No bounding pulse or other laminitic symptoms ever observed.

Forage and turnout - tldr: on purpose horses are going without forage for 3 hours a day bc the big horse is fat. 24/7 turnout. Drylot currently. Had to switch from Teff to Timothy 6 weeks ago. Should I try Orchard? Try stalling the pony to avoid him being w out forage?

Horses are kept outside together 24/7 with large run in shelter. We only use stalls for meals, severe weather, waiting for vet/farrier. Honcho Pony quite likes his stall and appears to be perfectly happy when he is stalled for weather events. Horses historically have had grass or hay or both available at all times. However, with the big horse on a diet I have reduced how much hay I’m putting out and the grass paddocks are closed until the winter rye gets thicker. This means the horses are going a few hours, about 3, with only scraps of hay left in the afternoons. The hay is already netted.

I’ve been feeding Teff but unfortunately I can’t get anymore this season unless there is a change with the dealer so horses have been on Timothy for 6 weeks now. I could get Orchard if y’all think that might be less irritating to the stomach? I could probably swing stalling the pony with hay to avoid him going without forage 3/4 days a week. But if he’s ulcery I dunno that stall time is the answer; also concerned about him getting cast again. I can get alfalfa of course and could give that to pony in the stall if I went that route. I can make a paddock attach to a stall but not immediately. I could get Bermuda hay too but it’s a bit late in the season to source the safer varieties.

I’m awful sorry this post is so long and disorganized. Thanks to anyone that can make sense of my ramblings and offer any thoughts

[SLW]

I would treat for ulcers. If it’s not the cure you have at least ruled ulcers out as the problem.

[GraceLikeRain]

Hay switch 6 weeks ago. Food pickiness started 2 weeks later. Escalation of discomfort with gas two weeks after that. I think an ouchy stomach or hind gut makes a lot of sense.

Given the past history of fecal water did you ever discuss Succeed? At least this time last year they had a 30 day trial where they would refund if you didn’t see results.

Did you buy the hay in a large enough quantity or is it from a consistent enough source to justify getting it tested? I wonder if it could be higher sugar than the teff?

[Alex_and_Bodie_s_Mom]

I suspect the hay switch may be the culprit as well, but ask your vet about colitis. My old guy Bodie had similar symptoms for several months prior to me needing to put him down. Several gas colics, overall not feeling quite right, loose poops (not all the time, but often enough ).

[Pico_Banana]

I also think the switch in hay seems to be the most likely answer. I would get just a couple weeks of orchard and try that before ordering a big delivery.

I wonder if some sucralfate might also be a good thing to try. Will make his tummy happier and I think it doesn’t negatively affect the hind gut, but would be great if others could comment on that as I am not 100% positive.

[lenapesadie]

Full ulcer treatment is an option. I think the vet would prefer to scope him before doing a PPI like Gastroguard. Obviously I could do something like Nexium easily enough but I worry that might do harm if he’s actually got a hindgut issue instead of gastric ulcers. I need to research this more though. Thank you!

[lenapesadie]

I tossed around the idea of Succed but since his previous issues cleared up did not pursue it. Thanks for the reminder on this product.

I’ll check in with the hay dealer today. Some of her stock is already tested but I dunno about this Timothy. Probabilities are that the Timothy and the orchard she has are both higher sugar than the Teff. Which is why I was feeding the Teff but here we are.

I have enough room to store a great deal of hay, if I kick the tractor out of the barn. I’m pretty upset with myself I didn’t make the decision to deal with the tractor living outside and order more Teff when it was available earlier this year but hindsight and all that.

[beowulf]

I am sorry to hear Honcho Pony isn’t feeling well. My piggy horse believed his Uckele Cu/Zn was absolutely unpalatable. He would not touch his feed if even a sprinkle was in it.

You and vet sound like you are on the right track, may be the hay switch combined with the season and some other things, maybe he has a mild case of colitis (irritation in hindgut). Treating for ulcers via a Nexium protocol would be a good affordable way to start. We had one years ago with fecal water and consistent colitis-like symptoms - stomach scoped fine, but vet did a whole bunch of diagnostics and discovered inflammation/irritation in his intestines to the point he was going off feed. At that point we discovered his molars were all going and he just wasn’t masticating the hay well enough, so it was scraping the lining of his intestines and causing all sorts of issues. Fecal transplant, metronizadole, and converting to a complete feed with zero hay and he was right as rain.

Incidentally, around that time his cushings symptoms came right to the forefront but he was just about 6 months shy of being diagnosed. His first symptom was needing shoes after 20+ years of barefoot. Second symptom was going from air fern to needing a bit more to keep the weight going, and he lost all his molars.

If you have any freezing happening in your area, could be the resulting correction of his trim might make him footsore if the ground is getting hard. This time of year is challenging for a lot of horses out in my area, because the ground goes from soft and wet (which softens their hooves a bit) to rutted and hard. Maybe you have all things converging at once and poor Honcho Pony is just feeling tired from it.

Keep us updated, I hope he feels better soon.

[lenapesadie]

I’ll add colitis to this list of things to be concerned too. My fear is it’s strangulating lipoma developing.

[lenapesadie]

I appreciate your common sense advice if ordering some Orchard to try and see if that helps.

My vet clinic scripts sulfalcrate commonly for general tummy upset (seems like they would prefer to do that before advising a PPI without a diagnostic scope). I’ll ask vet about it later this week when I follow up with her.

[lenapesadie]

I don’t think I will repurchase the Uckele and will go back to the MadBarn. I might not give Honcho pony any of it for a little while regardless.

Do you think a PPI is likely to irritate his hind gut if that’s the issue as opposed to gastric ulcers? I know vets aren’t always the best source for modern nutritional advice, but I noted that the main selling point of the probiotic she recommended is that it’s supposedly formulated to reach the hindgut. We also discussed ultrasounding the hind gut as a next step (as opposed to a scope) which leads me to believe she suspects hindgut over gastric.

We don’t have frozen ground here, too warm. But he does have some thrush going on in his front feet that I’m treating. I’ve not ruled out metabolic or PPID, but he’s currently testing WNL across the board. I’ll continue to monitor BW as my previous horse tested WNL until he didn’t. My clinic was having issues getting the supplies for the TRH test this fall but I’ll ask again as that test is more reliable it seems.

Thank you! I’ll relay your good wishes to Homcho Pony

ETA: His teeth! They were in poor shape when he showed up as his previous connections weren’t exactly keeping his medical care up to date. If I recall correctly, he was already missing a molar at his first dental exam here. He did quid a fair amount of hay at first but it’s lessened after each dental. Currently I only see a hay quid on very rare occasions. He is due for another dental since fall but we keep delaying it as first we were concerned about feet / metabolic and then yesterday bc he’d been acting colicky. My vet is very cautious about sedating horses that aren’t 100% feeling good; which I appreciate

[cayuse]

I also think threating for ulcers is a good idea. Probably with both sucralfate and gastrogard if the vet approves. That combo helped my mini more than just the gastrogard alone.
Jingling for Honcho Pony, I think I remember when he showed up, he picked the right place.

[Simkie]

I’m sorry if you addressed this, and I swear I have read your posts here looking for it!, but how is his manure now? Formed? Hydrated? How does it smell? Sour or acid? An amount you’d expect, or not?

I, too, would be concerned putting a horse suspicious for a hind gut issue on a PPI (gastrogard or nexium) and would definitely lean to sucralfate or misoprostol or, damn, this is when I really miss ranitidine.

This does sound pretty critical with him lying down and not wanting to rise. What color is he? Some sort of intestinal tumor may also need to be on the list

[lenapesadie]

My quick googling indicates that the sucralfate seems geared towards a soothing benefit to both the stomach and the hindgut which looks promising.

I’m hesitant to throw a PPI at him without scoping to confirm gastric ulcers.

Also need to consider that he strongly objects to oral paste administration. I’m not going to say it would for sure be impossible but it dang sure wouldn’t be pleasant

He’s such a sweet fella. I’m glad he decided to come live with us

[lenapesadie]

I did not include current manure conditions in my post!

It’s been mostly formed normal texture and smell up until this weekend when I noticed a few piles of cow patty manure. More sour smelling than I’d call normal.

Last nigh post vet visit, he was in stall for a bit and laid down, was looking at his belly, had some loud farts and somewhat projectile diarrhea. That’s the second time I’ve observed him laying down and pooping while down in the past few days and seems highly unusual imo.

I’m glad I’m not the only one hesitant to slap a PPI on this situation. I use Nexium for myself and wouldn’t hesitate to do that or GG if it was a clearer case of gastric ulcers, but I dunno that this is.

He’s bay! No external tumors. Of course it could still be a possibility but he’s not gray at least

[beowulf]

@lenapesadie

Do you think a PPI is likely to irritate his hind gut if that’s the issue as opposed to gastric ulcers? I know vets aren’t always the best source for modern nutritional advice, but I noted that the main selling point of the probiotic she recommended is that it’s supposedly formulated to reach the hindgut. We also discussed ultrasounding the hind gut as a next step (as opposed to a scope) which leads me to believe she suspects hindgut over gastric.

It’s a valid concern. I think establishing a baseline with your vet (as you are doing) is the best route forward. If your vet’s standard protocol is sulcrafates first, that’s not a bad jump off point. Ideally you dose on an empty stomach but that’s the frustrating thing about sulcrafate because you usually are trying to keep food in their stomach the entire time

It could be you are dealing with multiple things at once, not just one sole thing - horses.

The more you share the more parallels I see with what I went through with our gelding. It was hard to see how bad his molars were without a speculum. He didn’t quid, but he just wasn’t breaking down the coarse[r] stuff without those molars. It was scratching the lining of his stomach and causing significant discomfort - initially we thought full blown colic. He lives on soaked food and dengie/chaff mix now. He managed to lose almost an entire set of molars between just one dental cycle. According to our dentist, it is not that uncommon to lose them fast if they are geriatric.

In hind sight, it’s more obvious to me now than it was then that he had multiple things just coalesce at once. The loss of teeth, probably precipitated by his developing cushings, sudden sensitivity on all four feet that wasn’t laminitis, a bout of actual colic that resolved with fluids/banamine, sudden colitis, fecal water and sour smelling cow patty manure, onset of age and general senescence all made for a nice soup of symptoms/disorders that took us time to get to the bottom of.

[GraceLikeRain]

@lenapesadie

Also need to consider that he strongly objects to oral paste administration. I’m not going to say it would for sure be impossible but it dang sure wouldn’t be pleasant

In a perfect world sucralfate is an empty stomach medication. I had a very sensitive mare who tolerated exactly one syringing of it and then it took two hours to catch her the next time. It seems pretty palatable so my compromise was the pills tossed into about 8 oz of soaked outlast and she would absolutely inhale it without reservation.

[lenapesadie]

Thanks for sharing.

This Timothy has a lot of thicker pieces. Quite frankly the horses are wasting a fair amount. Pulling it out of the nets and then spitting it out. Both of them. I was considering trying Orchard anyways just bc of the mess but I’m thinking more that it could be a big help for Honcho since the Orchard is much finer pieces. It’s of course a little P heavy in general and all things equal I’d prefer an O/A mix but tue big fat horse doesn’t need alfalfa calories. OTOH feeding O/A might provide more continuous buffering for Honcho Pony’s stomach without using a PPI

[lenapesadie]

That is a good suggestion and I will remember that.

[Simkie]

That’s interesting about his manure. I might toss in a comprehensive equine diarrhea panel, just to rule out infective things.

Here are some deets about that:

UC Davis Horse Tests

(Equine Standard GI/Diarrhea Panel)

I hope you’re able to get him feeling better soon!