That’s what we were all suggesting, that she get help from someone with breed-specific knowledge for her horse.
No one is suggesting that she not get Honey training.
In fact, while mounting block issues are common in horses coming from saddleseat-land, they can be trained to stand well - they are remarkably smart, R+ works really well for them. That works for horses who have been landed on heavily by beginner riders, and by horses who are deciding that they really don’t prefer to go back to work after a break which is a non-breed-related-issue.
But didn’t the OP go to a Saddleseat trainer, and decide against continuing with that trainer?
I think she did. And that’s ok… Saddleseat is a specific discipline and not everyone wants to ride that way.
Anyway… it just seems to me like what we are talking about here with both dogs and horses are UNIVERSAL BASICS. My dog has been working on basic obedience stuff, and though the trainer knows Vs very well, she works with many breeds. A lot of dressage trainers are similar… though they may know how to get Grand Prix work out of Warmbloods, getting a horse to go forward into light contact is a key universal skill and a key basic of training that applies to most breeds.
I don’t see why a good dressage trainer or someone with skills starting untrained horses, or a combo of the two couldn’t help the OP out with this horse, especially since the OP doesn’t want to pursue Saddleseat and actually seems to want to do other stuff like dressage and a little jumping.
I agree with that too VHM. And you know what? After slogging through this trainwreck, I have to say that Alterration and endlessclimb are coming off as experts on ASBs. So I’d like to ask them both: how many ASBs have you trained? Not ridden, trained. How many have you shown (in other than walk/trot classes)? Are either of you professionals?
I have trained 9 ASBs and 2 NSHs over the years. Most of them came from the saddleseat world. I retrained them for dressage, and showed a few of those. In that entire group, only 1 horse ever reared. Ever. And that was why he was brought to me for training. He never did it with me and he never did it again. I showed him successfully at some very big dressage shows. ASBs are considered a “hot blood” like Arabs and TBs. Whomever described them upthread as being “wicked smart and have a great sense of humor” nailed it. But as far as “hot, sensitive,” and prone to popping up in front - they are no more that way than any other breed of horse. It IS bad behavior whether you like it or not. They can be trained to behave and stand still in the cross ties. You guys thinking that they are somehow special and different from all horses is amusing to me.
She took a lesson, that is correct. I am definitely not suggesting that she ride saddleseat.
But - would you take an OTTB to a trainer that had no experience with them and only ever worked with western-pleasure bred horses? So, those of us who had some experience with trainers who had zero experiences with saddlebreds having some issues with them, advised that perhaps it’s really important that both the OP, and the trainer, have some understanding of where the horse might have been and what her in-born tendencies were.
A good one may or may not be ok - my experience with a lot of dressage trainers is that they do understand warmbloods far better than the other breeds, and there can be a lot of breed bias against the noodles (and Arabians for that matter).
Her trainer seems like she is doing fine. Don’t mistake the concern from saddlebred-people’s side for nixing the plan.
I have trained 4 ASBs, and 8 Arabians, which is not extensive but it’s more than one. I’ve ridden quite a few more, but I didn’t count, sorry. And yes, I’ve shown quite a bit. I was a pro hunter/jumper trainer for 20 years after growing up as an eventer. shrug I did post a picture of a walk-trot class after I hadn’t been a trainer for quite a few years and had double hip surgery. Is that ok? Or does that negate any experiences I had with my horses.
That was me.
I do agree that it’s not great behavior. Never said it wasn’t. I have found, with all the ones I’ve ridden, which is more than just those 4 ASBs, that the tendency is to get light in front, not behind if they are going to make a mistake and get upset. Same thing with mounting block behavior - two of mine came with horrible mounting block behavior. I fixed it. But because I initially didn’t understand that they had literally never been taught, it took me embarrassingly long to fix it. Once I figured out that I had to teach that as though they had never used a mounting block, I got it.
Sensitive they can be, but I’d rather call that tuned-in.
Both of the current two I own stand beautifully in the cross-ties. But they are alert, and one of the two stays upheaded. You could imagine that he is upset, but he isn’t. That one LOVES being pampered.
I think perhaps, again, the thread winding and weaving has confused people and that’s totally ok.
Maybe I should write one big LONG post that sums up my actual position - because I’m not sure that it’s been accurately represented.
Re bold, how many is that?
Most of the Dressage trainers I’ve worked with, as Dressage has been my focus since the 80s, cliniced with and observed work with lots of ammies on a variety of breeds.
10 that specifically had some breed bias issues. Not a huge sample size, but it’s not small. One I specifically took my horse to here said she was really cool with Saddlebreds and then I later found out she was not, in fact, cool with either Saddlebreds nor Arabians. A friend and I had to get out.
One of the things I did find was that it was the “local” trainers who were worse with them, and the trainers who were actually “names” were better with them. And by names I don’t mean BNTs but those with significant experience.
I’ve had both hips replaced, too. what’s your point? I am a professional dressage trainer and you were a pro in the H/J world, great. It doesn’t make you an expert on the Saddlebred. Especially since you included Arabians. Not sure why you did that, I was specifically addressing your expertise on Saddlebreds. I’d have to sit here for an hour to recall all the various breeds I’ve worked with, yes including Arabs.
OK, that’s your experience, but it is not a quirk of the breed. Sounds like you’ve ridden a bunch of poorly trained Saddlers.
I generally find that people who make horses light enough in front to stand up are not driving the horse forward enough, and are grabbing them in the mouth too much. This generally happens when the horse is very athletic and forward, and the rider just doesn’t get that. YMMV
Because you also mentioned the walk trot class in a rather unkind way.
And you’re right - I haven’t mentioned all of the breeds I’ve worked with either, just answered the two that you mentioned which I thought relevant. If you’d have left off the Arabian, I would have too. But you didn’t
I recounted my experience when first having saddlebreds and trying to understand them coming from an extremely different background. Just as others did.
I am not the only one who has mentioned this particular quirk of the breed. A bunch of us mentioned it including those who grew up riding saddlebreds and saddleseat, and we also spoke about the fact that it is a bit normalized in saddleseat-land, which is something I was initially shocked by, and found relevant because I was raised to believe that rearing was the most horrible thing ever, and yet no one seemed phased by it.
I’ve ridden some of the best ex-show horses from some MAJOR barns, and a few that flunked out (most notably mine) of saddlebred school. I’m not sure that you could call them low quality or poorly trained. They were trained and bred for a purpose. shrug
Yep. Perhaps I should have said that - that Saddlebreds can be (not always, lazy ones also exist) quite forward and athletic and if you’re not prepared for it, it’s relatively easy to stuff them up in front by being too handsy. Hard mouthed ones also exist (which I also mentioned) usually from having been driven.
And yet you said not to get an Arab or a ASB - and thus, by default, a NSH… if you did not want to have something that is twitchy/touchy/needy/scatterbrained. Inferring they are all that way. ALL my dogs - borzoi/smooth fox terrier/border terrier - have had a “rug” or “mat” command - to go to that place and just be still and wait. Ditto for sit/stay/wait and down/stay/wait. I was today years old in this thread when I found out that is supposedly “not fair” to the dog. They also did fun things all the time I was not “un-borzoi-ing” or “un-terriering” them. Which would be impossible, BTW.
@Virginia_Horse_Mom - kindly stop posting photos of traumatized, abused vizslas…
I had to smile at the suggestion that some of us may be afraid of the snort and blow ASBs… I worked with Arabs and NSHs for years and at top shows. Nothing to be “afraid” of. Earlier in this thread I commented on the ASB trainer I knew where I got to ride a champion five-gaited mare… saddleseat. It was memorable. I have also worked on the backside… lots of fearsome snort and blow can be found there. I forgot to be afraid.
A 17.2 warmblood mare that I used to school turned into a complete dragon when she was cycling… we had to tack her up on the walk/jig in the arena - as if she was a fractious 3 year old at the track. We had to do a “drive by” at the mounting block - and I have never been the most agile of people/riders. Gymnastics was never my thing! Two point and then later sitting down in that saddle, everything lifted under you - and it felt like dynamite was about to go off… but get into a big forward trot and you could focus the dynamite - and it felt amazing! When I would start with her in this state I was reminded of the way the Arabians/ASBs/NHSs would come flying in the gate in their big Pleasure classes…
People watching would wonder why/how I rode such a dragon - just ordinary me. But I knew the snort and blow could be focussed… and was to be respected and worked with and enjoyed - not feared. If that makes sense.
When she was not cycling and in heat… she was still “forward” but very easy-going.
By contrast - the trainer I worked for at Arabian Nationals and Regionals had a Park Horse that was quiet, mellow and extremely chill in the barn and hitching ring. He would saunter around on a long rein after a quick warm up as the others in that class roared around him. And then - as they were heading toward the in gate and I walked alongside and undid his tail, he lifted up into trot, his eyes sparkled and vrrrrroooom !!
He always found his performance “switch” and loved to show off.
Jingles for Honey and her choke episode - I hope she clears it soon - and easily!
Agreed - how would being driven make them hard-mouthed? Maybe from being driven badly - as well as ridden badly - and hanging off their mouths with rigid hands. Being driven is not the issue.
That’s awesome. I’ve ridden more than one that had brutal mouths and I was told it was from having been driven, by a Saddlebred trainer at a large barn here. In fact, the recommendation for my soft-mouthed horse was that he drive. Maybe that was just a bad trainer? He wins quite a bit, and it’s a well known barn in the Midwest.
Thank you for ignoring the tangent and coming back to this thread! I promise a lot of us are invested in your success/a happy end for both of you, whatever that looks like. I’m the biggest dog lover in the world but this is too much even for me it sounds like you have a great plan in place and I have been in a similar boat where I did have to accept that my horse was never what I hoped he would be, and while it was hard, I have never questioned or doubted my decision.
it sounds like you have a great plan in place and I have been in a similar boat where I did have to accept that my horse was never what I hoped he would be, and while it was hard, I have never questioned or doubted my decision.