Yes mam!!
Thank you for your support! I’ve actually wondered if bitless would be something worth trying, and your experience really is interesting!
For that particular horse it was a game changer. He also had a very small mouth with a thick tongue so many bits were uncomfortable for him. I rode him in a sidepull style bitless bridle that had a tiny bit of hackamore action (LG bridle or flower hackamore). He did NOT approve of any of the cross under designs as he objected (by getting light in front) to the poll pressure.
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No. But the behavior was mentioned on more than one occasion in the original thread. The first mention of a rear by the OP was July ‘23. I believe she also mentioned being told by an observer that the horse was rearing when a previous trainer’s working student was trying to work with it. Plus, the phrasing in the OP is that the rearing issue has persisted. So, it doesn’t seem like anything has changed in regard to this issued since it was first mentioned 9 months ago.
First mention of this issue:
https://forum.chronofhorse.com/t/honey-the-asb-update-and-progress-thread/786908/142?u=sdel
The other rider/observer:
https://forum.chronofhorse.com/t/honey-the-asb-update-and-progress-thread/786908/194?u=sdel
Having had a rearing/flip accident happen at a barn I was at, caused by kicking the horse forward while still holding with the hand, I find that it is not wise to just advise a beginner rider with an unknown ability to separate the aids to just send the horse forward in this situation.
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I’ll be thrilled to be proven wrong, but I think you + Honey may need to be in some sort of a multiple-days-a-week training program for a while. If that type of money isn’t in the budget (I know it isn’t for most people!), it may be in your best interest to do April and then have this trainer help you rehome Honey. Then you can think about taking a break or getting something that fits with your skills and budget. Something that would thrive with maybe just a lesson a week and hacks on your own?
I think Honey has taught you a lot, and maybe y’all could learn to mesh together within a program of training and lessons if that’s what you wanted. I also think there’s likely a nice QH type out there that won’t care if you’re anxious or haven’t ridden in a week and will just keep on trucking. You get to decide what you want to do!
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Assuming that after a month the horse isn’t worse. OP, it is a distinct possibility that after a month of real work you’ll have a horse that is clearly in pain and acting out because of it, to the point where it will not be an easy feat, and questionably ethical, to rehome.
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Or you’ll have a horse who is behaving better because she’s gotten consistent work and boundaries.
Who will be easier to rehome.
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Try reading the cautions as warning to a member without much experience.
Because we can’t see the rearing and how she’s being handled leading up to it, the level of expertise of the trainer, and a slew of other factors, I read these not as mean girl comments (what?) but as better safe than sorry comments.
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And everything Sdel wrote
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Ang. Out.
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I agree 100%. If money were no object, I’d absolutely do that, but given that it is I’ll take this time to see how honey progresses and then go from there.
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That’s a solid point.
Whether it goes well or goes terribly, this is the route I’m taking, and I’ll cross whatever bridges are necessary when I get to them.
I’m doing the best I can with the information I have. And the best I can do right now is put her in a program with a kind, knowledgeable and gentle trainer. Only get on Honey under supervision (if the situation seems right. Calling back to a previous post that I don’t get on if I’m anxious, sad, not in the right headspace or if it feels like I don’t have her attention. ) and also treat ulcers. If other situations arise, I will take those into consideration and make decisions from there. That’s all I can do.
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To me the enablers who could get this rider hurt, killed or worse are the unkind ones. What Bodie says is true for a person who can already ride.
The advice being given is not for a beginner with a rearing horse whose trainer is also TEACHING the horse to rear. Horses do not just rear. It is said that horses are taught to rear. We are not talking about what they do in the paddock.
The kind people are the people trying to keep the beginner safe. That is kindness for the rider, safe for her family and safe for everyone who knows her in real life.
As I said there are many a horse out there without a rear who would love to be loved by the OP AND deserve it.
If money is tight @AdultEmmy put your money into lessons on the the been there done there horse you mentioned. Grab that opportunity with both hands.
You will be safer. You will be riding. You will be learning. You will be having fun.
Win. Win. Win. WIN.
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Respectfully, I disagree.
Saddlebreds, which is the breed of this horse, are MORE prone to rear as their default evasion. It is considerably more accepted in Saddleseat as well (really, ask saddleseat people). When I first entered saddlebred-land, I was shocked when my horse popped up in front and my trainer had zero issue with it (and told me to get out of his face - and I’ve always had soft hands…just not soft enough).
It’s a function of who they are as a breed, how they are balanced and built. It is NOT the same as a QH, Warmblood or TB rearing. It isn’t. It’s just not. I wish I could explain this better.
Does it mean that @AdultEmmy is ready to ride this rear - no, it doesn’t mean that (and it sounds like it’s a prop not a full rear).
What it means is that it’s not an automatic “OMGTHISHORSEISSODANGEROUS” like it is in those other breeds. It doesn’t mean a dishonest seller. It doesn’t mean a “that’s why this horse is rejected”.
Honey was likely rejected from Saddleseat land because she is low headed and she doesn’t crank her knees to her eyeballs. That’s the sole reason.
She may have been a broodmare. Often mares are reserved for breeding. It’s relatively hard to find one that shows more than once or twice before they leave and go to the breeding shed since it is SUCH a small niche breed at this point.
I own saddlebreds. I’ve been in saddleseat barns. I have also been in sporthorse barns, and rode hunters and dressage horses for the last 35 years. They are vastly DIFFERENT. The expectations are different from the get go, the training is different, and the behavior of these horses are different. I didn’t understand it until I got them.
I ride mine in a bosal sometimes and it’s great for staying out of his face. He’s still very light and responsive, but he also knows voice commands so it’s terrific. If he weren’t so responsive to that, I might try a sidepull as @Bogie recommends. I’d also recommend a neck strap to keep from inadvertently banging her in the mouth.
Depending on how many hours you are from me @AdultEmmy - I welcome you to come to my farm and meet my guys. I can show you how light and sensitive they are, and you can get to know the differences between them and my QHs so you can see how normal your horse truly is.
Why am I so passionate about this? Because it’s stuff like this that ALMOST caused me to sell him after we went through several sporthorse trainers who all discarded him as dangerous who almost caused me to miss out on the horse of a lifetime. I’ve had 20+ horses in my years of riding (I think i’m up to 25 owned because I am insane) and THIS horse instantly turns me into a child again - loving my horse with all my heart and soul. I would have missed out had I not had the opportunity to go into saddleseat barns and truly understand these horses, then translate what I was taught there to sporthorse uses of my horse.
I’d hate to see that for @AdultEmmy and I’d hate to see a negative end for Honey, who is just being a normal saddlebred. They ARE suitable for beginner riders, the focus and the way you teach them to ride is just far different. After all, saddleseat riders aren’t sprung from the earth or grown on trees. Most trainers will teach them with reins on a flat halter because these horses are that sensitive 
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So, what is there about rearing, in any breed, that is not dangerous, especially for a relatively inexperienced rider? Furthermore, is every single Saddlebred the same?
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A. It doesn’t often turn into a full rear, it’s more of a pop up in front.
B. They RARELY flip. The way they are built and balanced means their front ends are naturally lighter. The center of gravity is further back.
Not every saddlebred is the same, but I’ve been in multiple saddlebred barns and talked to multiple saddlebred trainers. So…eh…I’m going to guess I know what I’m talking about here with experience in both worlds.
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This missed the point entirely. Just because something is “accepted practice” doesn’t mean it isn’t or can’t be dangerous.
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I was addressing the pearl clutching and the “this is why she was sold on” comments in that particular paragraph.
And clearly you missed this comment:
Does it mean that @AdultEmmy is ready to ride this rear - no, it doesn’t mean that (and it sounds like it’s a prop not a full rear).
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It probably is why she was sold on. This tendency is dangerous. I wouldn’t want it. At a minimum it’s a confidence killer. At worst it’s death or permanently scarring. It doesn’t matter how damn well balanced you think the horse is to naturally rear up and not flip….that goes out the window with a rider who is pulling them off balance and yanking on them. And yes, it was unethical for the seller to sell this horse without disclosure. Do you really think the OP would have bought the horse if she knew it would pop up every time she got off balance? It’s enough of a problem for the OP that there is no way the seller didn’t know.
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It isn’t though. That isn’t how it works in saddlebred land. Which is likely where she was when she was bred and originally trained as they are few and far between in sporthorse land so far.
When they aren’t fancy enough, they usually get sold to either the Amish, who work them in the streets, or to slaughter. It’s a harsh reality for the breed.
I want @AdultEmmy to be successful whether it is with Honey or not - but I don’t want this horse to suffer the fate of so many of her misunderstood cousins.
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This photo helps to explain in part why the saddlebred (and some morgans of similar lines) tend to go up in front. You can actually feel it when you ride one for the first time. I went straight from riding hunters to riding mine and I felt like I was going to fall off the back of the horse, and I was decidedly out of balance riding in a forward seat (until I figured out where my balance needed to be, I was a mess).
They are bred to take a lot of weight in the hocks and lift in front because extravagant movement in front is what is prized. That means that ridden properly it feels a lot closer to a levade than a hunter trot. While they can be taught to trot long and low, it takes some effort. They are also typically taught to trot out of a very collected jog (called often a bounce walk), in preparation for the explosive trot that makes you feel like you’re barely keeping up.
It’s not everyone’s cup of tea - but it’s very very different and it’s worth understanding fully. I try to educatea where I can because it is so so different.
Saddleseat riders are taught to put next to no weight in the reins. They “bump” (close fingers and release or lift hands and release) quickly to bring the horse behind the bridle. They do not hold contact. Separation of the aids and handling reins is one of the things taught very early to saddleseat riders - even in academy levels (schooling saddleseat), off the horse and on. They are taught to go forward FIRST and foremost (and trot at a speed that feels like you’re running your horse off it’s feet). While some horses (especially those driven a lot) do develop “more tolerant” mouths, many do not.
A horse whose initial training was in saddleseat land is going to find constant contact VERY offensive until trained otherwise and it takes a thoughtful trainer who understands the horse’s previous experience to bridge that gap.
They do look scary to sporthorse people and they require a very different ride until thoughtfully trained otherwise (and…sometimes they continue to be just soft and sensitive their whole lives). But if you think about it - these horses typically get zero turnout during the show season, 20 minute workouts 5-days a week, get shown in incredibly high pressure, loud venues with people whooping, banging, and hollering, and kids and adults ride them in flat saddles with satin suits.
While yes, the riders become very good riders, the horses also have minds that allow them to do this. There are very few falls at saddleseat shows even with some amateurs that look like they ride like potatoes, something that blew me away when I first came from sporthorse land. The horses largely stay under them, and despite a lot of visible drama at times (a lot of rearing in the lineup) everyone stays aboard.
They do make good sporthorse mounts too, but there’s a huge caveat that you have to learn to work with them. As I mentioned with my first saddlebred, we went through several sporthorse trainers (all who had him rearing - serious BIG rears, not just propping) before I gave up and went to saddlebred land to learn, then transferred that knowledge back to what we were trying to do. I spent several years riding with multiple trainers and going to clinics where you get to ride 4-5 different horses a day and had GREAT conversations with Gayle Lampe, who understood what I was trying to understand, and she really helped me bridge that knowledge gap.
They are horses still of course, but they are so different that it’s hard to grok. I would say Arabians and Morgans (bred and trained for saddleseat) can be similar. The difference I think with saddlebreds is that the bloodlines have solely focused on what was good for saddleseat for many many years. That has not deviated. And, it has traditionally culled what doesn’t make a good saddleseat horse. The association is just now starting to promote this horse to sporthorse land, and we JUST got breed show hunter-type horses at our world championship show (they still look, move, and are ridden like saddleseat horses but are ridden in hunt seat tack).
And now that I’ve thoroughly derailed the thread…I’ll sign off saying - they are AWESOME horses. The heart my saddlebreds show me cannot be matched. What I see them do for their riders in and out of the ring is amazing. I wish more people understood them - we’re losing amazing horses because they don’t.
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I just want to commend OP. You’re doing the best you can within your means and it’s an excellent choice to put this horse with a trainer instead of trying to muddle along by yourself. I hope you see good results between the trainer and the treatments.
COTH can be a judgy place, as you’ve clearly experienced. Most people mean well. I do not personally find rearing to be any more offensive or dangerous than any other bad behavior, but everyone has to draw their own lines.
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