Hoof Angles and tripping.... help please

[whitewolfe001]

I will try to keep this as brief as possible…

Acquired horse 2 years ago. He was in 2 degree wedges. Moved great.

Highly recommended area farrier did not like previous shoeing job at all. Says he will work on angles.

A year later, farrier says angles are better. Removes wedges. Horse starts tripping slightly. Farrier puts wedges back on right away.

For the last year, tripping issue becomes worse and worse. Have had multiple vets out. Everything done. Flexions, xrays, lameness locator software thingy, massage, chiro, saddle fitter…nothing found except teeny arthritis in right front coffin joint… vet said it’s sooo slight but injected BOTH front coffins anyways… no improvement. Horse trips on both feet.

Every time vet sees him, she always says, “what’s up with his hoof angles? Hoof angle does’t match pastern angle?Toe is so long?”

Farrier has tried rolled toes last 2 cycles. No change, if anything, even worse.

His hoof angle was much more upright a year ago. Now, hoof angle doesn’t match pastern angle at all. Very slopey, long toe, heels underrun. Tripping CONSTANTLY… even at the walk. On the lunge + undersaddle.

(Note: these are not big stumbles. They are mostly lots of little trips, like a breakover problem, or a stubby toe action).

Basically stopped riding horse two weeks ago and had said farrier remove shoes two days ago. Haven’t tried riding or lunging horse yet. I know the horse has been shod continuously since age 3 (he is now 15) with no break, with wedge pads on since at least the last 7 years (as far ask I know.) Could this cause heel pain/ contracted heels/ crushed heels?

Farrier is basically like “Barefoot …sure, OK? IDK… worth a try?”

Horse is on Cosequin and 57 mg Previcox daily.

Don’t know what else to try besides barefoot at this point. Hoping for a miracle but not holding my breath. What else can I try? A different farrier?

[StormyDay]

You can post photos directly to COTH now. Please do that so we can give you feedback, shutterfly requires logins.

[whitewolfe001]

Aha!!! I didn’t know that. Thank you. I’m trying now…

[whitewolfe001]

jeez it is so fun trying to resize all your images to upload to coth.

[SharonA]

If this were my horse, I would not be able to fire this farrier fast enough. Toes and heels way too long for my taste. Farrier appears to know very little about hoof angles, anatomy, or function, based on these pictures.

So as to help your horse as quickly as possible, in case you need a script," Dear Farrier, Thank you for your work on my horse, however, I would like to go in a different direction, effective immediately, and will be working with a different farrier and with my horse’s vet. Thank you, White Wolfe."

If the farrier gets huffy and asks why, gently but firmly tell him, “Because I feel that my horse’s angles are wrong, his toes are extremely long, his medial-lateral balance is way off, his heels are crushed and run forward, and these things reflect a trim that is not consistent with healthy hoof function or with knowledge of hoof anatomy.”

Do NOT give this farrier another chance. He doesn’t know what he 's doing.

[purplnurpl]

Omg!
if this were my horse I wouldn’t ride it.
And I would change farriers yesterday.

Feet are long and its easy to see the right foot lateral hoof wall is longer than medial.
That second set of photos.
sheesh.

Time for a new farrier and please present him/her with recent xrays.

[Scribbler]

I don’t know if these feet are causing the tripping. But the under run herls and long toes are pretty awful. I would not continue doing business with a farrier that thought this was within the parameters of OK.

[S1969]

@whitewolfe001

Every time vet sees him, she always says, “what’s up with his hoof angles? Hoof angle does’t match pastern angle?Toe is so long?”

Don’t know what else to try besides barefoot at this point. Hoping for a miracle but not holding my breath. What else can I try? A different farrier?

Sounds like you know the problem - and so does your vet. Seems odd to have tried everything BUT get a new farrier.

Barefoot isn’t the solution - taking shoes off won’t fix bad angles and long toes. Even before I saw the pictures I was going to say that you need to ask your vet for a farrier recommendation. After seeing the pictures I am sure.

I agree with Scribbler - it may or may not be the solution to the tripping, but there is no reason not to get a better trim. It can’t hurt, and it might help a lot.

[MsM]

One of the most important steps I took to help my old horse was to find a good farrier that worked well with my vet. That communication was crucial in getting everyone working together to help the horse. Interesting that my first farrier couldn’t manage to shorten the toes also. Feet looked very different after a few visits from the new guy!

[stb]

OMG! Get rid of that farrier and get someone else out there asap! Those feet are awful. No riding until you get his feet on a better path. And, yes, years of wedges can definitely cause crushed heels. This is exactly what has happened here. Toes are also significantly too long. What a mess.

Any farrier who would do this to a horse would not touch one of mine ever again.

[JB]

@whitewolfe001

Every time vet sees him, she always says, “what’s up with his hoof angles? Hoof angle does’t match pastern angle?Toe is so long?”

If she knows they are so bad (and they are) why has she not said you need a new farrier?

Farrier has tried rolled toes last 2 cycles. No change, if anything, even worse.

Because it’s not just about rolling the toes, and it’s not just about the toes. He’s clearly missing the entire boat on what makes a balanced, healthy foot

Basically stopped riding horse two weeks ago and had said farrier remove shoes two days ago. Haven’t tried riding or lunging horse yet. I know the horse has been shod continuously since age 3 (he is now 15) with no break, with wedge pads on since at least the last 7 years (as far ask I know.) Could this cause heel pain/ contracted heels/ crushed heels?

Could it? It WILL, and does, 100% of the time, when allowed to be this way long enough.

Removing the shoes will help some as it will allow some of this overgrown foot to wear off. But don’t think that just removing the shoes will fix things. There’s so much foot there that needs to go, that they aren’t going to self-trim properly or even ever.

Don’t know what else to try besides barefoot at this point. Hoping for a miracle but not holding my breath. What else can I try? A different farrier?

I’m also curious why you’ve never gotten a different farrier? That should have been the first step. A competent farrier IS the “miracle”.

[Sparrowette]

@JB

If she knows they are so bad (and they are) why has she not said you need a new farrier?

Because it’s not just about rolling the toes, and it’s not just about the toes. He’s clearly missing the entire boat on what makes a balanced, healthy foot.

Could it? It WILL, and does, 100% of the time, when allowed to be this way long enough.

Removing the shoes will help some as it will allow some of this overgrown foot to wear off. But don’t think that just removing the shoes will fix things. There’s so much foot there that needs to go, that they aren’t going to self-trim properly or even ever.

I’m also curious why you’ve never gotten a different farrier? That should have been the first step. A competent farrier IS the “miracle”.

Whitewolf, listen to JB and the others.

When I first got my mare, I had a guy that was “well recommended”, and paid TOP DOLLAR for him too. Well, you don’t ALWAYS get what you pay for…

Mare was tripping and friends who knew what they were looking at told me I was being robbed, AND he was causing my horse to trip on her toes because they were too long. Friends gave me recommendation of another guy, and I’ve been with him ever since. I pay extra for him to drive across town and am happy to do it.

is there a reason you haven’t found (or looked for) another farrier?

Sheesh… EVEN I CAN SEE that that hoof trim is whacked out. And that’s saying something.

[whitewolfe001]

Thank you all for confirming my suspicions. I knew this didn’t look right but I’ve never had a horse that had wedges or pads, or hardly even shoes…all my past horses had good feet and were mostly barefoot.

these pics were taken the day before the farrier visit, 6 week mark. Farrier always said he just grows toe really fast… which may be true but still…

the vet is aware of who he is and never said much about it…when she would ask why so long, it always just happened that she was seeing the horse right before he was due.

why haven’t I tried someone else yet? Because he’s supposed to be “the best” in our area so I trusted…shame on me I guess. it wasn’t until I happened to overhear someone at another barn say something about how he messed up a wedge job that alarm bells started to go off in my head…

also when I first got the horse, he was forging a lot and farrier fixed that in one visit so I thought hey this guy knows his stuff.

I’m really angry at myself right now for not figuring this out sooner…

[stb]

Don’t beat yourself up. Now you know, so you can do better. Horse care has such a learning curve- hooves especially.

[tazycat]

@whitewolfe001

Thank you all for confirming my suspicions. I knew this didn’t look right but I’ve never had a horse that had wedges or pads, or hardly even shoes…all my past horses had good feet and were mostly barefoot.

these pics were taken the day before the farrier visit, 6 week mark. Farrier always said he just grows toe really fast… which may be true but still…

the vet is aware of who he is and never said much about it…when she would ask why so long, it always just happened that she was seeing the horse right before he was due.

why haven’t I tried someone else yet? Because he’s supposed to be “the best” in our area so I trusted…shame on me I guess. it wasn’t until I happened to overhear someone at another barn say something about how he messed up a wedge job that alarm bells started to go off in my head…

also when I first got the horse, he was forging a lot and farrier fixed that in one visit so I thought hey this guy knows his stuff.

I’m really angry at myself right now for not figuring this out sooner…

Don’t be so hard on yourself stuff happens. At least you know now you need to find a good farrier horse will get his feet fixed. Right now my once very good trimmer just up and left the country.So i’m left high and dry no one to trim my horses feet. 12 weeks out and feet look horrible and i’m clueless on how to trim. My horse’s feet are as long as your horses only difference is my horse’s are chipping off extra hoof.

Your doing right by not riding him or doing any kind of work with him.You came here for advice so that shows you care about your horse. Got some great advice too.

[Color_of_Light]

No wonder he is tripping…and it could just be the photos, but those fetlocks/suspensories might also be a concern. Please don’t be too angry at yourself. You trusted all these “professionals” and they failed you. Not only the farrier, but multiple vets who completely missed the mark, and the one who passively made those comments. Is this the same vet who prescribed Previcoxx and was that for the tripping?

That farrier is so off point…no horse who started with the right angles would ever look like that in 6 weeks. Those feet took a lonnnng time coming. The fetlocks and ligaments also don’t get that way in 6 weeks either (not to alarm, but looks puffy?). Do you have photos of his feet and legs from when you bought him? Were his angles and fetlock/suspensories in the same condition as these photos when you first purchased him? What I mean is: see that puffiness at the back of the fetlock and tendons? That puffiness can come from the strain of bad hoof angles and looks possibly like some fetlocks and/or possibly suspensory ligaments that are not too comfy. That did not happen overnight, but could have happened within the last 2 years of using this farrier. Or, it could have been there before you bought him when he came to you with previous bad angles that required wedges to get the angle corrected.

If he were mine, I’d take him to a lamenss expert (must understand hoof angles) for full diagnostics so I’d know what all is going on here. Just to cover all my bases, I’d ultrasound the suspensory ligaments to see if the puffiness is “just” fluid from strain, or if it’s a lot more. I’d also x-ray fetlocks, pasterns and coffin joint. I’d want to know if there is any ring bone started from those angles. These hooves will take some time to recover. If there are strains or arthritis, treatment may be needed so those areas can recover, too. Good for you for being concerned and noticing something didn’t seem right!

[Ganesha]

I was in your exact situation, although my horse’s feet were not that extreme. Good for you to do something about it. Focus on the future, not the past. Do not put any energy into feeling bad!

Do you have a list of farriers or trimmers to consider? I’d be putting all my energies into locating your next hoof care person. Maybe people on COTH can make recommendations if you tell us where you are. I would ask people recommend someone who has a track records fixing a horse who has the same problems your horse has.

I think one thing I’ve learned is if you’re not happy with your horse’s feet, and you feel like you have to tell your farrier how to do the job (take more toe off, etc), you must find a new farrier. The farrier should know what the horse needs, and if he/she can’t see it, you have to move on. Even if you were able to tell the farrier exactly what to do, and you were correct, if the farrier isn’t on board and doesn’t understand it fully and agree, I don’t think he or she would be able to execute the instructions effectively.

I agree that radiographs of the feet, side and front views, would be a great so your new farrier can fully understand what’s going on inside the foot. Good luck and keep us posted!

[JB]

@whitewolfe001

these pics were taken the day before the farrier visit, 6 week mark. Farrier always said he just grows toe really fast… which may be true but still…

the vet is aware of who he is and never said much about it…when she would ask why so long, it always just happened that she was seeing the horse right before he was due.

I really, REALLY wish vets got a lot more training on what feet SHOULD look like. They don’t need to know a lot of how to fix things, but unless and until they become a lot more educated on healthy feet and how they get that way, they won’t ever understand a situation like this, which is these feet have been badly trimmed for at least a full growth cycle.

This isn’t about the feet being “due”. This isn’t about them having been 6 weeks since the last trim. It’s about them being improperly trimmed, for at least a full growth cycle.

See how the deviation in hoof angle is way up high on the foot, when you look at it from the side? These feet haven’t been trimmed in at least that long, and that growth way up there started flaring at least 7-9 months ago, depending on how fast these feet grow.

We’ve all been there. I’ve been there. But it’s an amazing thing when you suddenly realize you have the power to learn and be the advocate your horse needs :yes:

I agree if you can tell us generally where you are, you might get some great recommendations. I’d start a new thread with “Need farrier in X location”

[INoMrEd]

Listen to JB as she knows what she’s talking about. After over a year of farrier fu&*ery I’ve finally found a farrier who works with my podiatry specialist vet. My horse is now 100% sound. It’s all about the trim being correct.

[mmeqcenter]

People are really good at puffing themselves up and duping unsuspecting customers. Don’t beat yourself up. Just get a new farrier, pronto.