Hoof growth and sole depth

[millerra]

I really really hope that this doesn’t descend into a fight. I just wanted to post my experience and see other’s observations.

First, I am not anti-shoe or anti-barefoot. I used to always pull shoes in the winter. I have horses who event. One guy (horse 1) struggles w/ flat feet, low heel long toe. So instead of pulling his shoes, I kept him in shoes year round. My other one (horse 2) has thin soles and so I have kept him in fronts year round.

Last spring, farrier was noticing that horse one had very thin soles, and showing ?caudal collapse? where the frog/center part of foot is lower than the wall. His sole was extremely (scary so) flexible. We spent the summer w/ frog support pads or pour in pads. At first it made him quite sore. But the change in his foot was remarkable. The sole hardened up and he now actually has heel depth. He is (winter/snow) barefoot and can work in the indoor w/out shoes but I do have scoot boots for him (and horse 2)

Horse 2 I also pulled his shoes. He had a stone bruise at the end of the season. I kept his shoes on until we had snow. His sole is now quite hard, he has more heel depth (depth of crevice by frog), and the angle of his hoof wall growth is becoming more vertical.

I do think I need shoes on for the active eventer in the spring…

questions… are these observations normal w/r/t barefoot? If so, is going barefoot over the winter sufficient to “reset” the hoof growth to more sole depth or should I consider pour in pads for sole/frog support? Did we have it right long ago by pulling shoes for awhile? is that the best management? I know it’s horse dependent but just looking for other experiences and observations.

[Scribbler]

If shoes are contributing to hoof angle issues, it’s either because the underlying trim is wrong or the horse is going too long between trims. Untrimmed barefoot horses can get messed up feet too if there isn’t enough natural wear, like pasture pets.

[GoodTimes]

I’d say it’s really horse dependent. Between my mom and I we’ve got three horses right now.

My A/O hunter will be 14 this spring, we’ve had him since he was a yearling. He has always had big pancake feet, struggles with low heels and thin soles. He loves to pull shoes if the farrier doesn’t get that breakover right. In the winter he wears front shoes with snow pads. In the summer he’s crippled without pour in pads. He just simply doesn’t grow enough sole to stay comfortable during show season, especially during drought periods when the ground gets hard and he’s stomping at flies. This is with multiple farriers, different approaches, different schedules, good nutrition, different farms. We’ve done x-rays every few years and the sole depth never really changes. Angles and balance look good. Horse is a sound hack winner with shoes and pads. We put those shoes and pads on him as a 4yo because he was too uncomfortable jumping barefoot, x-rays done at that time showed thin soles, everything else looked good.

My mom’s older retired guy is currently barefoot. He needs to be on a short schedule otherwise his heels get underrun. He’s 20 this year, retired last year due to hind suspensory desmitis, can’t rule out DSLD. We’ve had him since he was four. When he was in hard work he usually had front shoes on, especially if we were frequenting venues with grass footing. We often pulled them for the winter for convenience and cost. Never made much of a difference to him, he always has had good sole depth.

Our younger mare has great feet. She’s coming six, has nice hard feet, they grow in a very balanced way. Very simple for the farrier. She’s done a lot of jumping and showing over the last year and we haven’t felt that she’s needed shoes.

All three currently live on the same farm. Same farrier. Similar diets, individually tailored.

[walktrot]

My horse had a teeny-tiny ding halfway between the coronary band and the ground. He was in shoes with a 2-degree pad for his hoof angles. That little ding was a PITA. I put him on biotin. The farrier said his soles and hoof walls were much thicker. You have to remember it takes upwards of a year for a hoof to grow out. It’s worth it and I kept him on it. I used Bioflax 20 from HorseTech.com

[NancyM]

My herd of tb and thx horses have completely different feet since moving to semi arid location. I no longer have to shoe anyone. 24 hour per day turnout all year long. Natural wear on firm abrasive ground in summer, and snow in winter. In summer, I do some minor trimming now and again, just to tidy things up a bit, but I have some horses who don’t even need that! The difference in the environment makes all the difference in hooves. Feed is good quality alfalfa/grass hay and trace mineral salt block, and those in training get a taste of beet pulp plus a handful of high fat kibble, plus fresh grazing in summer. Feet like iron, thick walls, tough soles, big fat healthy frogs, nicely cupped feet. I have to wait for a rain shower, which is a rarity, for horn to soften up a bit to be able to get the nippers through the walls, because I’m not Superman. I’ve been on this farm for 14 years now, and I have horses that I ride and show and trail ride who have never been shod in their lives. I don’t trail ride over rocky mountain tops for 10 hours at a time, and I’m not showing in the GP division on grass at Spruce Meadows. But for what we do, it works for us. Great traction when they can feel the ground surface. The difference is the low humidity semi arid environment, where horses can live outdoors year round in a herd environment.

[kaya842]

Your experience aligns with Progressive Equine Services (they’re on FB) experience and anecdata. The shoes aren’t the problem, it’s the peripheral loading that causes the caudal collapse/ failure (which is why adding frog support pads can correct it). I believe they have some clients that do the barefoot in the winter shoes in the summer thing. Personally, I wouldn’t do it without using the pads too just due to the clear decline in hoof health when they are in regular shoes. Progressive uses Werkman Black (gait analysis), radiographs, and I think another form of imaging to gather data to back up their hypothesis that peripheral loading is generally no Bueno.

[Obsidian_Fire]

I think your observations are good. You need to know each individual, cuz one size does NOT fit all, LOL. I think I would start with rads on the horse I’m most concerned about. Have your farrier meet you at the vets. Get the films, talk them over, do the feet, take another film. It’s not just sole depth, it’s the angle of P3 also. It does play a factor.
My own mare is a nightmare of NPA and it has been chicken or egg for the last 5 years.
I used to always pull shoes in the winter, because we weren’t trail riding anymore, just arena if even that, so why? I never thought much about it at the time, but looking back I never had a lame horse, so???
Your farrier plays a role in this too, what kind of trim is he putting on each horse, or is he doing the same thing to them all?
Diet plays a factor, as does the surface each horse spends time on.
As to going barefoot as a reset… my mare is NPA in the hinds. Last summer she managed to do a sliding stop in the pasture and literally slid out of her shoes. Farrier opted to leave her bare behind for awhile mostly out of curiosity to see what would happen. 7 mos later now, we actually have heels behind. Now, the chicken/egg portion of this is her stance played a role. In these past few months she’s had SI injections and mesotherapy along her back. Standing like a “normal” horse as opposed to camped under with all the pressure on her heels, has helped immensely.
Something to consider.

[Bonnie2]

My long toe low heel horse didn’t improve until he was barefoot. I can rasp him a little every few days. In shoes the angles can only be addressed every 4 (or 5 or 6) weeks. Some of the hardness changes you see may be weather/moisture related. The only “answer” is to do what works for each horse!