Hoof Issues

[alterisfine]

I have a TB gelding that has had some very serious hoof issues. I would love to get comments on his feet in each of the set of photos.

This horse has always had hoof issues. I did the best I could with him with the limited knowledge I had at the time. I was on board with a wonderful farrier that had him going beautifully, but then he got too busy and couldn’t come to my barn for just my horse. The farrier after that was doing an ok job until end of the summer last year. Then everything fell apart.

Since COTH limits posts to 5 photos, I am going to post Sept 2016 photos in this post. This was when all the problems came to a head with the last farrier (one mentioned above) and we took my guy barefoot to fix some of his issues. Photo 1-4 are when my horse was done by barefoot trimmer #1. at this point x-rays were done and horse only had 3mm of sole depth.

I am not working with barefoot trimmer #2 and a new farrier (yes, she is a barefoot trimmer that also believes in shoeing when necessary). Photo 5-8 reflects my horses current state. xrays were taken again in April and we had 12 mm of sole depth!

Please tell me what you see in these photos. I kow this can be a hot topic and emotions/opinions run high, so please be kind!

Thanks!

[Scribbler]

What are we seeing here?

My first question is, did the horse founder at some point?

My second question is, how does the horse move now? Is he functionally sound?

I’m seeing flaring or dishing in the toe, and weirdly long toes. Is that really what his white foot looks like, or is there distortion in the camera angle?

Why was the hoof wrapped in the 2016 photos?

I’d say that compared to the 2016 photos, the 2017 photos have longer toes and the feet with clipped shoes have much more under run heels than in 2016. But the 2016 feet look dished and bulbed, as if from founder.

I’m not sure what you mean about it being a hot topic and emotions running high. Do you mean that you went from barefoot to shoes again and are worried about being flamed for that? That’s neither here nor there, but the most recent feet look pretty scary to me. However, I am not sure what you are rehabbing from or what happened in between 2016 and 2017.

[Sistersiouxz]

I am guessing that your horse had chronic laminitis then rotated last summer. You could ask that your veterinarian consult with someone like laminitis specialist / farrier Ric Redden, DVM. Then find a capable but humble farrier to follow the vet’s instructions.
Just out of curiosity, is the thickness of the sole equal from toe to heel? As Scribbler asked, is your horse functionally sound?
I am sorry you and your horse are going through this.

[S1969]

@Scribbler

What are we seeing here?

My first question is, did the horse founder at some point?

My second question is, how does the horse move now? Is he functionally sound?

I’m seeing flaring or dishing in the toe, and weirdly long toes. Is that really what his white foot looks like, or is there distortion in the camera angle?

Why was the hoof wrapped in the 2016 photos?

I’d say that compared to the 2016 photos, the 2017 photos have longer toes and the feet with clipped shoes have much more under run heels than in 2016. But the 2016 feet look dished and bulbed, as if from founder.

I’m not sure what you mean about it being a hot topic and emotions running high. Do you mean that you went from barefoot to shoes again and are worried about being flamed for that? That’s neither here nor there, but the most recent feet look pretty scary to me. However, I am not sure what you are rehabbing from or what happened in between 2016 and 2017.

Good questions, I wondered the same.

OP, You describe the horse as having “very serious hoof issues” and I wondered if the pics show the rehab of a “very serious” issue like founder, or if the feet, as shown, are the “very serious issue?”

Both sets of pictures look bad. But without knowing what happened (if anything specific),it’s hard to comment on what to do next. I think the hoof quality looks better now but don’t like the trim. However, if this is step 2 in a 10 step process…that would make a big difference.

[JB]

I’ve been trying for a few minutes to find the right words LOL

Current pictures show feet that are in better shape than the 9/16 pics, but to a large degree, that’s only because 9/16 feet were SO very bad :eek:

The current feet are still bad. The current farrier has made some things better, but overall the feet are still not at all correctly trimmed. That’s so odd - clearly she knew how bad things were before, but just doesn’t seem to know how to get them to the right place.

The best thing about the 8/17 pics is the heels are at least much more reasonably back - they were SO far forward in the 9/16 pics. But the toes are tooo long now, and you can see the flaring clearly going all the way up the foot, meaning, they’ve been too long for at least an entire growth cycle, so at least 9 or so months.

What did the xrays show as far as coffin bone orientation? I’m positive the white foot had a negative plane orientation - back of P3 lower than the front, when the back should be raised 2-3*.

It does appear that the shoes are set so the heels are back where they belong, ie “full”. How long since the last trim were the 8/17 pics taken?

@Scribbler the “wrapped” feet were in casts. I don’t know what the farrier thought they would accomplish for this horse, but casts can be very useful for providing stability and protection to the whole foot when you can’t, or don’t want to nail or glue a shoe on. I’d love to see what the feet looked like after the casts were removed. I’m also curious if it was farrier #1 or 2 who did them.

[luvmyhackney]

In the current pics, the feet look like a higher quality hoof has grown out, with a trim using terrible angles. Those toes need to be taken way back and something done to help those contracted heels. You’re going to have suspensory issues sooner rather than later. The shoe is set back, but not near enough to account for how long the toes are.

I personally don’t care whether shoes are on or not. A good trim is a good trim, farriers just add a shoe on top of a good trim.

[alterisfine]

The serious hoof issues this horse has had have been two-fold. When I got him he had serious underrun heels and long toes, which ended up causing some lameness issues. when the feet were getting better, but the lameness issues were continuing, we investigated further an found a coffin bone chip off the wing of the medial RF. The awesome farrier that I mentioned (that couldn’t keep coming to my barn), vet and I devised a shoeing package that keep him fairly sound, at least as sound he had ever been. This was in late 2014/early 2015. Then that farrier quit on me later spring 2015.

Late spring 2015-late summer 2016 I used the farrier (we will call him farrier #1) that got us to the point of where the first four pictures were taken. I knew things weren’t right for the last 4 shoeing cycle or so and I tried to ask questions, etc… but I was shut down pretty quickly. Then when my horse kept loosing shoes (literally all the time), I finally decided to take a break and go barefoot. The farrier pulled the remaining shoes and did an aggressive trim (I was not there for that appt) and two days later my horse couldn’t walk. Called farrier #1 numerous times to see if he could help- never heard back. Needless to say, i would never recommend this farrier.

Barefoot trimmer #1 (trimmer that casted the foot in the first 4 pics) came out a week later and lightly trimmed (basically just rasped/prepped foot for cast) and casted. You can see in the pic that the white foot (RF) was casted to raise the toe (since he was 100% positive he was rotated). horse was more comfortable (3 out of 5) for two days and then he went seriously lame (4/5, sometimes 5/5). I involved my vet by taking rads. Barefoot trimmer #1 wouldn’t work with me because I got my vet involved and put the horse on bute. Radiographs attached. Vet recommended no shoes (no foot to nail into) and 4-6 week trimming cycles. Working on trimming flare, but not to touch the heels. She said that it would take an entire 8-11 months to regrow the hoof, so we probably wouldn’t do shoes until then.

Since barefoot trimmer #1 wouldn’t work with my vet, I found barefoot trimmer #2. When barefoot trimmer #2 came out to evaluate my boy, she was quite upset about how tight the cast was on the foot and how bulked up the toe was. She told me that when we took that cast off and then started the corrective trimming process that we would probably be dealing with a lot of damage done by the cast job. From Oct 2016-July 2016 we have been dealing with LOTS of abscessing, LOTS of separation of the white line, all while we have been doing the corrective trimming and casting. This horse is extremely particular in how he’s managed. Meaning that you can never to anything too quickly or too aggressively. Barefoot trimmer #2, knows the toes are still too long and the heel still needs to come back. Believe it or not the toes and flaring in the Aug 2017 pictures look WAY better then 3-4 months ago. I wish I had been good about taking pictures all through this process.

If think someone asked when the trim was done before the Aug 2017 pictures. horse was trimmed (barefoot trimmer #2) and shod (farrier #2) on Aug 12th. He blew out a major (and I mean MAJOR) abscess under his frog Aug 21st (left front) and a different type of shoe was put on to get him up off his heel even more (to help relieve the pain).

He is right now as sound as he can be with the left heel higher then the right heel (due to the shoe on the abscess foot).

[candyappy]

The first pictures left me speechless.
The second set is more of what I try to avoid here.

I would not be pleased with either farrier. I know what I want to see in the work of a good farrier,
( but lack the expertise of the majority on here to explain it ) .

I think farrier/ trimmer # 2 isn’t what you need either. Can your vet recommend a better option?

[IPEsq]

The Xrays show way too much toe and flat to negative angles. The heels are also still far too forward, but better than the first photos! He also needs to grow more sole. They were pretty awful to start with but I’m sorry to say they are far from good now. What about a wedged shoe with equipak? (can you even do that?) And a new trim?

[S1969]

@IPEsq

The Xrays show way too much toe and flat to negative angles. The heels are also still far too forward, but better than the first photos! He also needs to grow more sole. They were pretty awful to start with but I’m sorry to say they are far from good now. What about a wedged shoe with equipak? (can you even do that?) And a new trim?

I think the rads are from about the time as the first set of pictures (Sept 2016)? Isn’t the RF in a cast?

I would probably get updated rads and see if they will help the farrier/trimmer get those toes back. I don’t love the trim but if the new trimmer/farrier has made improvements and realizes that the toes are still too long…that’s a good thing. A new set of xrays might give them a bit more confidence to speed up the timeline for correction. I realize that your horse is sensitive and you don’t want to do too much, too fast, but being a bit more aggressive might actually help.

[IPEsq]

Oh sorry I interpreted the post as including recent rads, with one of the later trimmers, but I guess I didn’t read closely enough.

[BoyleHeightsKid]

I don’t even know what to say looking at those feet…:eek::eek::eek:

I would not move forward with either trimmer/farrier you’ve been using. Tell us where you are and maybe we can help you find someone who can help your horse. Wow… I’m sorry for you and your horse. Bless your boy, he must have been in so much pain and still cannot be very comfortable.

[JB]

:eek: :eek: Holy toes! Wowzers.

Any chance of getting new rads? How long since the last trim before that set?

[alterisfine]

trimmer #2 trimmed 5 weeks before these xrays. He was trimmed right after the xrays were taken. We are taking xrays again in October (my finances need to recuperate from all of this).

I am guessing that the xrays now show a lot of improvement. I don’t have pictures of his feet (from the outside) from when the xrays were taken, but they long WAY WAY WAY better now then they did then. IN April he had so much flare and toe. Everytime we tried to take toe, he was go massively lame. After April we were doing trims every 2-3 weeks to try and take the toe back as much as possible.

Now he’s at a barn really close to my trimmers and she micromanages his trims every week.

[JB]

Thanks for that timeline. I figured the rads were at the end of the cycle (and if you mentioned that up there somewhere, I missed it, so sorry!).

I can’t wait to see an update in Oct!

[IPEsq]

The angles got better, but wow those toes! I hope the weekly trims have been helping.

[Second_Star_To_The_R]

I’m going to share my experience with Dexter’s feet before his injury and founder. Before we bought him back, he was a padded performance walking horse. He stood in pads 24/7, 365 with no turn out, ever. He had shallow soles, long toes and under run heels.

We had a farrier who talked a great game. He had an answer for everything and my daughter really believed in him and trusted everything he told her. She was told that Dexter’s toes could not be shortened until the heels were fixed. That it would take a very long time for his heels to grow out properly, you could take too much to or he would be sore. Etc etc etc. I guess I should clarify that Dex was not boarded near me and my daughter handled everything with him.

When I saw his feet I was sick. The vet that did his X-rays told my daughter his feet were dangerously long and then recommended the farrier that was already NOT trimming him short enough. Like I said, the guy talked a great game.

When Dexter had his surgery, the surgeon who is also a farrier trimmed his RF and what do you know, it was a correct trim. The toe was proper length and the heels were as good as they could be given the circumstances. Had a new farrier trim his LF after he foundered on it and poof, nice toe length, better angles etc. He still has issues but point being, I can’t see any reason to ever leave toes that long. Or leave them so long that in five weeks they look like these.

Some where out there is a trimmer that can fix that foot length without quicking the horse. The heels may take some time and circumstances may cause the feet to grow differently for a time (Dex grows a crazy long high heel on his surgical foot now but not on the other but I think a farrier that understands balance can really get more done for horse much more quickly than all this.