Hoof Pictures, what am I seeing Update New Pics Post 24

[skip99]

Anyone want to take a peak at some hoof pictures? I wasn’t thrilled about how mares hooves looked last cycle and she was being quite tight in her hindend and back. After she was shod again there was pretty noticeable improvement in her way of going. Now we’re two weeks in and I’m getting that same feeling again. Vet is coming out today to do x-rays because I just feel something is not right about her feet (the curved growth rings have become quite noticeable for one). In the meantime I figured I’d share the pictures here and then follow up with what x-rays reveal.

[Album] imgur.com

[ThreeWishes]

I’d bet you will find negative Palmer angles on your hind rads given the bull nosed look.

[JB]

There isn’t a bullnose though. They are flat, to slightly dished in the LF (I’m assuming these are fronts)

They don’t look terrible, but they do need some improvements. These were trimmed 2 weeks ago? Do you have pics of what they looked like 2 weeks into the last trim, or even right before this trim?

It’s clear these have had long toes for a while, the flare goes most of the way up the wall. But it’s not possible to tell in this pic whether the tighter growth up top is growing down, diminishing, or staying the same

Do I see a rocker on the shoes?

The heels are a bit underrun, especially for only 2 weeks in, and the shoes set right at the end of that, which is not what you want.

I’d also like to see the hind feet.

[trubandloki]

@JB

There isn’t a bullnose though

I do believe that they are talking about the hind feet, which are not the topic of this discussion but can be seen in the second photo.
Bolding mine on the below quote.

@ThreeWishes

I’d bet you will find negative Palmer angles on your hind rads

[beowulf]

JB, if you click the image it goes to an IMGUR album. It took me a second to figure out as I thought it was just one photos as well.

JB would definitely think the hinds are bullnosed once they see them.

OP you are right to be unhappy with this trim, especially only 2 weeks in. The fever rings are usually a sign of subclinical laminitis - which could be because her front hooves have a long toe and are flat, which impacts sole depth negatively.

I’d be concerned about the jamming coronary bands too; laterally, they show a lot of chronic imbalance… and I don’t like at all how pronounced the bull nose is behind, which usually comes with NPA because the toe is “nosing” out because the distal phalanx drops down and the tip is pushed out closer to the hoof capsule, resulting in a broken back hoof pastern axis. It’s always a bad thing to see externally.

I really don’t like the ‘tenting’ of the coronary band in that last photo.

A caveat about x-rays and vets… most vets really don’t recognize a pathologically unhealthy hoof outside of hideous x-rays – I think in part because a big portion of their livelihood involves coexisting with farriers. Vets can be very reluctant to criticize a farrier’s work, or even appraise it honestly – because they will burn professional bridges when they do.

[endlessclimb]

I was confused at first too - but… it’s an album. Gotta click the photo, then the rest are there.

[JB]

ohhhh, I didn’t realize it was an album I had to click into!

Yeah, those front feet are definitely short-shod with underrun heels

The hinds, 100% bullnose, and while I’ve seen NPA without bullnosing, I’ve never seen bullnosing without NPA (or at least flat or almost flat)

If the feeling I have of this being a long-term farrier is true, then you need a new one. It won’t matter what the xrays prove, the fact that s/he has let the feet get to this point says he doesn’t know or doesn’t care that they aren’t in good condition.

[IPEsq]

@JB my last horse regularly had bullnozing without NPA. Checked often with X-rays as he had other hind end problems. But as you may remember, he was speshul and most likely just dragged his toes a lot out on our hard ground, wearing them down from the front.

Front shoes on this horse look worn out and overgrown (on the sides, not just short shod in the back) already for 2 weeks.

[JB]

@IPEsq

my last horse regularly had bullnozing without NPA. Checked often with X-rays as he had other hind end problems. But as you may remember, he was speshul and most likely just dragged his toes a lot out on our hard ground, wearing them down from the front.

Yep, that’s “false” bullnosing, and usually fairly easy to differentiate. In those, the wall comes down straight from the coronet, as it should, and then gets more worn and rounded as it gets close to the ground, from dragging (or the farrier doing a crappy job).

True bullnosing is the wall pushed out, and like flare (concave, vs convex), you can see the straighter tighter more correct growth diverge higher up

[skip99]

Thanks everyone…I should have specified it was an album link, my bad

X-rays showed a completely flat angle behind. Front feet were unremarkable minus some sidebone which the vet was not concerned about at all, though he did say the toe is too long up front. Had her hocks and stifles x-rayed just in case there was anything else going on and they looked very clean. I’ll have copies of the rads by next week.

@JB is right - this is a long term farrier has been doing this horse since she was a long 2 year old. I feel like he’s been more inconsistent recently.

Sounds like I’ll be looking for a new farrier. Sucks because the list of farriers I will not use is crazy long and why does firing a farrier always feel so difficult

[JB]

You can just not schedule the farrier again - that’s the cheap way out LOL

how old is she now? These feet have been poorly trimmed at least a full growth cycle, with how high up the tight/correct growth is. Thankfully they aren’t TERRIBLE, and while flat/negative angles can be tricky to correct sometimes, the fronts look like they should start coming around really quickly with solid trims. I see no reason 1 trim/shoe setup cannot fix the breakover of the fronts, and then the flares just have to grow out. The hinds will hopefully be the same

[skip99]

I pre schedule out, so the next visit is Nov 22 - which I don’t want to wait that long now anyway! I’ll probably just take the easy way out and cancel because of work travel and won’t reschedule.

She’s 6 now.

[Kyrabee]

My mare was “flat” (0 degrees) on the hinds. I presented that to one of the old farrier boards (years ago) and several felt that was functionally the same as a negative angle since it should be +3-4 degrees.

I was trying to keep her BF but she was really snubbing off the anterior wall of her hind feet. Since I was trying to keep her BF I did an experiment and put some wedge pads in her boots…just as a trial to see if that would help. It did…quite a bit. Next my trimmer took off toe from the bottom and within 2 trims, that helped quite a bit too. I have been able to keep her BF with only boots for rock protection when needed. So, even “flat” may need some adjustment either through trimming or a small wedge for awhile.

Yep, I would be finding a different farrier. The set up trim really needs to be better.

Susan

[Weezer]

Depending on the relationship you have with your farrier, it may be worth showing him the x-rays and giving him a chance to correct his work. You will learn a lot about his character based on the reaction to your request for correction.

[JB]

But do you really trust a farrier who has put feet into this situation? He clearly wasn’t trimming well on a regular basis. He obviously doesn’t see, or care, about the flaring and bullnosing.

[Kyrabee]

I had one mare that I did x-rays on. The farrier kept insisting on putting these bizarre hand made wedge shoes or egg bar wedges on to get her to 52 degrees. Farrier never bothered to even look at the x-rays which revealed her bones nicely aligned at 48 degrees. Sorry, if I spend big bucks on hoof balance x-rays for you to look at and you can’t bother…bye, bye. She needed to be at 48 degrees. She was a very horizontal horse and 52 degrees was not where she wanted to be.

I switched to a farrier that did Natural Balance shoes and that was just what she needed….at the time. I sold her before I retook x-rays…I didn’t see the PPE ones that the buyer did but they were satisfied with the results. Externally, the tubules certainly aligned better than before these shoes and her foot was much more under the bony column than before the NB shoes (this was a couple years from firing the above farrier).

Susan

[skip99]

Thanks all! I’ve found a new farrier to come out (likely in the next week or two) so fingers crossed he’s able to do a better job on her!

Link to Rads album for those interested (had to do some cropping to omit personal info)

[Album] imgur.com

[beowulf]

Oh wow, ouch. What did your vet think of those rads, how about that lateral imbalance?

Glad you found a new farrier. Fingers crossed for you. I went through something similar about six years ago and fired a farrier I’d been using for 20 years. It sucked but my horse is so much better for it.

[Bluey]

Around here, I have heard some of the top farriers and some lameness vets mention that there are adequate farriers that are just not quite that good, or some time owners that are lax in getting feet attended properly, wait too long or have horses under management that is not ideal for their hooves.
It tends to take about 1 1/2 years for a horse’s feet to show up the improper balance and growth patterns in distortion that makes a horse on and off sore and owners start to doubt the farrier skills.
Vets can only say so much, as it is not only the farrier not quite right feet work involved, but they try their best to help the horse.

Some of this comes back to lack of regulation, anyone can manage a horse stable, take care of client’s horse’s hooves, there is no supervision, no basic education or continuing learning credits required to keep certification.
Is a wild jungle out there for horse owners when it comes to horse’s feet, no easy solution.
Horses manage to walk on any kind of hooves, until they can’t any more and come up sore, when we should have had x-rays from the moment we bought a horse and a farrier that worked with the vet for best foot care for that horse.
We have, for decades, and with today’s portable digital x-rays, is super easy.

All the money spent on massages and chiro and supplements and special gadgets and other stuff, a basic x-ray would be a drop in that bucket and help set a sound base for that horse.

[JB]

Oof, I’m glad you have those rads . I’m glad that the hinds’ P3s are “only” roughly ground parallel, and not yet negative.

I will cross everything that the new farrier knows what he’s doing. I suspect these feet will be easy to fix, the fronts will fix quickly (and distortion will just take the time it takes to grow out), the hinds may take longer.

Were these rads taken with the cannon bones vertical? It’s helpful to see how P1-3 all line up. The LF is the worst of the 2 fronts, with P3 looking close to ground-parallel, it just hasn’t been there long enough to cause external bullnosing.

Fingers crossed!