Hopping/rocking canter

[talkofthetown]

This is probably a dumb question, but I just want to make sure this isn’t a problem. I’ve been playing around with DH’s appaloosa since I can’t currently ride my mare. He is SO much fun. Really game, slightly cranky, very lazy…like an overgrown pony. He came to us with 90 days professional western training*, so I assume that there are some buttons on him that I haven’t discovered/don’t know what they do.

I’ve noticed that when I ask for the right lead canter, he has a very dramatic uplift with his front end on every stride. Going to the left, he simply pushes into the canter and goes along smoothly. Going to the right, though, he lifts he shoulders quite a bit at takeoff…but then he’ll do that every stride. Very rockinghorse-feeling. If I take my legs off, he’ll immediately come back to a walk. If I really get after him (lots of verbal cues, more heel nudging), he’ll pick up the pace and the canter feels more normal.

Am I accidentally cuing him to lope? Or something? He’s completely sound, I don’t think it’s a physical thing. I’ve never seriously ridden western (trail riding was as crazy as I got) so I wasn’t sure if cues varied between the disciplines.

• I do understand that there are many different disciplines within the western world. I’m not sure exactly what sort of training this was; previous owner said “trails and things”. So. There you go. :yes:

[beau159]

[QUOTE=talkofthetown;8757248]
He’s completely sound, I don’t think it’s a physical thing. [/QUOTE]

Can you explain how you verified this?

When was his last lameness evaluation by a qualified vet?
Chiropractic check?
Dental check?
Saddle fit?

Sometimes there can be things that are “off” that will hinder a horse’s performance but won’t necessarily make them lame.

With my horse Red, as an example, I know he needs a chiropractic adjustment when I have to ask twice for his right lead. He’s very dominant on his left lead and when he’s due for an adjustment (one of the places he will get “out” is in his withers) he’ll try to pick up the left when I cue for the right, and he knows better. Get him adjusted and then he’s just fine.

What kind of shape is your horse in? Just like anyone or anything else, animals and humans can have a preferred side and/or be more athletic/flexible in one direction versus another. It could be he needs more conditioning to help him carry that right lead, than he does the left.

Your cue for either side (right or left lead) should be identical. Just, of course, you are cueing the opposite side. But you shouldn’t have to do anything differently (hypothetically) on a well-trained horse for a specific side.

Are YOU possibly riding him different? Just as the horse may need more flexibility/conditioning on a particular side, maybe your leg/hip/torso is more stiff to the right and that is in turn inadvertantly cueing him to do what he’s doing.

[athohan]

Yeah. I had the same problem, but with a hunter/jumper mare so I can rule out that it isn’t just a “western lope” thing.
There were two problems with my mare: After a few rides of her bobbing her head A LOT in the canter, we found out she was sore. When she was better, she still bobbed her head.
We’ve grown out of that annoying phase, but when we struggled with it, it was a matter of a slow canter. Like you said, if you get him up, he stops bobbing, and same with my mare. Canter him with a big stride and a fast feel, that solved it for my horse.

[Montanas_Girl]

Sounds like he’s behind your leg and/or sore somewhere in his hind end.

[Luseride]

90 days is nothing to speak of training wise. I would say he is just weak to the right and stronger to the left. The best fix is lots and lots of loping to the right. Vary the circles in size and speed.

There really is not any difference in how you cue a horse western or hunt seat until you get into advanced training.

[talkofthetown]

No problems found by the vet. He stretches easily on both sides, he is fine when I palpate his back, I was riding bareback when I discovered this, and he w/t/c freely in both directions in the pasture. He’s sound.

There’s a chance I was riding him differently going that direction; I’ll have to pay more attention to that next time I ride.

He definitely wants to suck back and fall behind my leg, I have to continue to ask for forward to maintain whatever speed we’re going. And like I said, once he gets himself in gear and we get more impulsion, the canter feels better.

Good idea about being weaker on that side/hind end. Will transition work help to strengthen that as well?

What I think is happening is, the transition from trot to canter isn’t clean and strong, so he ends up loping at first. Am I correct that lope and canter are two different gaits? Is it “easier” for a horse to lope rather than canter?

[Montanas_Girl]

[QUOTE=talkofthetown;8762596]
Am I correct that lope and canter are two different gaits? Is it “easier” for a horse to lope rather than canter?[/QUOTE]

No. A lope is just a slow, collected canter. The rhythm should be exactly the same. In fact, it is harder for a horse to lope correctly than to canter, due to the slower pace and increased collection. A horse who is loping correctly should not be “hopping” or bobbing his head. Watch this horse for a correctly executed lope.

[talkofthetown]

[QUOTE=Montanas_Girl;8762697]
No. A lope is just a slow, collected canter. The rhythm should be exactly the same. In fact, it is harder for a horse to lope correctly than to canter, due to the slower pace and increased collection. A horse who is loping correctly should not be “hopping” or bobbing his head. Watch this horse for a correctly executed lope.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for that. For some reason, I’ve always thought that a lope was a slow 4 beat gait.

To clarify, the horse is not bobbing his head at all. Maybe hopping wasn’t the best choice of words. I’ve read many articles about how to create more “jump” in the canter stride…more impulsion and a stronger push from the hind end. That is exactly how this feels. There is a ton of “jump” in his canter, significantly more going to the right, but it’s almost too much. The forward momentum is lost because of all the vertical movement. Does that make sense? Hard to explain.

[Where_sMyWhite]

[QUOTE=talkofthetown;8762793]
Thanks for that. For some reason, I’ve always thought that a lope was a slow 4 beat gait…[/QUOTE]

That’s what you see in the show pen but doesn’t mean it is really correct. The lope/canter is a 3 beat gait

[Montanas_Girl]

[QUOTE=talkofthetown;8762793]
The forward momentum is lost because of all the vertical movement.[/QUOTE]

In my experience, that is very typical of horses who have been made/taught to go slow above all else - slower than they are physically capable of. It takes a lot of strength for a horse to properly lope, which is why you see so many poorly executed, 4-beat lopes. My old hunter horse used to do something similar when he got lazy and behind my leg. When I’m riding a horse who does this, I make them go forward immediately - even gallop them out a little - and then gradually bring them back to a more appropriate pace, without losing the forward. It takes time, but eventually the horse will develop the strength to carry himself properly and will learn that forward is imperative.

[talkofthetown]

Got it, thank you!

[Palm_Beach]

[QUOTE=talkofthetown;8762793]
Thanks for that. For some reason, I’ve always thought that a lope was a slow 4 beat gait.

To clarify, the horse is not bobbing his head at all. Maybe hopping wasn’t the best choice of words. I’ve read many articles about how to create more “jump” in the canter stride…more impulsion and a stronger push from the hind end. That is exactly how this feels. There is a ton of “jump” in his canter, significantly more going to the right, but it’s almost too much. The forward momentum is lost because of all the vertical movement. Does that make sense? Hard to explain.[/QUOTE]

Does he feel like a dolphin? If so, and he is not slinging his head up and down or 4 beating, he is going correctly. The horse should lift his shoulders and round his back, so you kinda feel like you are on a dolphin until you get used to it.

The lope is a 3 beat gait. That’s great if he’s only has 90 days professional training. Did you ride h/j prior to switching to western? If so, a good western pleasure horse “hunts for the stop” like a good h/j horse “hunts for the next jump.” His natural “laziness” is actually a good quality, IMHO. It’s easier to put a little bit of Go into a lazy horse than it is to soften and quiet a forward horse.

What are your goals for this horse? That determines whether you want to preserve the training he’s had or make some changes so he is better prepared to do what you want.

[Montanas_Girl]

[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8762949]
It’s easier to put a little bit of Go into a lazy horse than it is to soften and quiet a forward horse.[/QUOTE]

My experience has been exactly the opposite. You can’t do anything well without installing forward first. In fact, I’m currently selling a horse for exactly that reason. Everyone else who rides her loves her, but I don’t like feeling like I’m working harder than the horse just to maintain our forward momentum. I can channel the energy in a forward horse into something productive, but I cannot physically make a horse go forward who doesn’t want to.

[talkofthetown]

[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8762949]
Does he feel like a dolphin? If so, and he is not slinging his head up and down or 4 beating, he is going correctly. The horse should lift his shoulders and round his back, so you kinda feel like you are on a dolphin until you get used to it.

The lope is a 3 beat gait. That’s great if he’s only has 90 days professional training. Did you ride h/j prior to switching to western? If so, a good western pleasure horse “hunts for the stop” like a good h/j horse “hunts for the next jump.” His natural “laziness” is actually a good quality, IMHO. It’s easier to put a little bit of Go into a lazy horse than it is to soften and quiet a forward horse.

What are your goals for this horse? That determines whether you want to preserve the training he’s had or make some changes so he is better prepared to do what you want.[/QUOTE]

Dolphin is actually a pretty accurate description. No slinging or bobbing, just a very exaggerated motion.

Re: 90 days training. I have no idea what he had prior to that. He seems extremely well trained but we don’t know his history. We bought him from a woman that rescued him, rehabbed him, rode him a bit and put him in training. But he’s very responsive to the aids, patient, brave. We really lucked out with this guy.

While I haven’t competed or trained in years, I do/did eventing. I haven’t switched, still plan on riding english, but my mare is currently not able to be ridden so I am just riding DH’s gelding for fun. Nothing serious, no need to change his training to fit my needs.

I agree with Montanas_Girl, I hate feeling like I am working harder than they are simply to maintain a gait. If I ask for a trot, please keep trotting until I say otherwise.

[Palm_Beach]

[QUOTE=talkofthetown;8763178]
I agree with Montanas_Girl, I hate feeling like I am working harder than they are simply to maintain a gait. If I ask for a trot, please keep trotting until I say otherwise.[/QUOTE]

My horse is like that. I sometimes ride with a dressage whip. What I’ve been focusing on lately and having great success with is applying my aids very sloooowwwly and trying to make them as light as possible. Strangely, its been very effective in getting a more prompt response from my horse. She is now super sensitive to a very light aid.

For forward, I use light heel. If no response, a cluck, if no response, a rhythmic tap tap tap with the whip until I get forward. I too rode tbs, so the change to a quieter breed was kinda hard. This is a good video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3eCJJKXdDE

I bet if you messed around a bit with this horse you’d really have fun with his responses.

[Montanas_Girl]

[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8763446]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3eCJJKXdDE[/QUOTE]

That’s a great video! I’ve never heard of that trainer before, but I’ll definitely be checking out more of his work.

I like my horses to respond to very subtle, light, slow cues, as he illustrated. When my old guy was fit, I could get him to change leads just by shifting my hip and shoulder every so slightly in the direction of the new bend. I don’t enjoy horses I have to beg and cajole into reacting, although I’m perfectly capable of escalating my aids when needed. I find that what I consider to be very heavy/harsh aids are considered “light” by a lot of people, especially in the western world.

For example, I was riding a reining horse recently who was described as “very quiet”. I literally COULD NOT make the horse lope. I tried light seat and thigh/calf cues, as I’m accustomed to. Nothing. So I added heel and more obvious seat cues. Nothing. I added vocal cues (I tried many of them!). Nothing. I resorted to straight-up “pony kicking”. Nothing. Not even a faster trot. Even when I added spurs, it was all I could do to get a few strides of lope. Horses like that are no fun for me, but that horse is a favorite of many of the students in the program.

I think that a lot of people are just naturally louder in their application of the aids than others. You’ll often hear people with that characteristic to the extreme level described as having an “electric seat”. I, however, am on the opposite end of the spectrum. My seat puts horses to sleep! Add my 27" inseam to that and I absolutely cannot ride a horse who isn’t immediately responsive to very light aids. It’s probably a big part of why the Arabian is my breed of choice. :lol:

[sahqueen]

Do you ride him with spurs ? Depending on the type of training he’s had he might need a bit of extra encouragement to lope correctly and forward. I have one that I don’t think I could get to jog without any spurs and to get a good quality lope I have to break out the rock grinders.

[beau159]

[QUOTE=Montanas_Girl;8763029]
but I don’t like feeling like I’m working harder than the horse just to maintain our forward momentum. [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=talkofthetown;8763178]
I agree with Montanas_Girl, I hate feeling like I am working harder than they are simply to maintain a gait. If I ask for a trot, please keep trotting until I say otherwise.[/QUOTE]

And no one should have to.

Of course, there’s something to be said if a horse and rider aren’t a perfect “match” together, but most lazy horses can still be trailed to be responsive horses.

In my mind there is a difference between laid back vs. lazy.

Laid back is a personality trait. You can’t change it.
Lazy is a learned trait. The horse will get away with what the rider lets them get away with.

My Shotgun can certainly be on the lazy side because he IS so laid back. I love that he is laid back but I’ve certainly had to take a very different training approach compared to my other gelding (who is not at all laid back).

My philosophy is I will ask nicely one time, then you better move your butt.

So let’s say you are at a standstill and you’d like your horse to move into a walk. Give your normal “walk” cue with your seat and a light squeeze with your legs. If the horse does not immediately and briskly move into a walk like you have asked, you are going to CRACK them a good one with the whip in your hand. If the horse isn’t jumping/leaping forward from your whip, then you aren’t using it hard enough. You need to elicit a very big response from it. Let them surge forward a couple of strides, then ask them to stop and REPEAT. Again, give them a nice cue for a walk that you would normally give. If they give you a nice brisk response, allow them to walk on. If not, they get a SMACK with the whip again. Repeat.

Of course, never allow them to move on when you’ve had to give a correction. Always end on a good note where they responded nicely from your soft cue.

You can do this with any gait transition (walk, trot, canter) as well as when you are maintaining gait. If I ask for a trot at a certain speed, it is the horse’s job to maintain it until I say otherwise.

Most horses usually catch onto this VERY quickly and it only takes a couple of rounds with the whip and they understand they should just respond to the cue in the first place.