Horrible rider position at mid-high levels

[Chestnut_Mare1]

I went to a local Gold show recently and could not believe how horrible some of the riders’ positions were at the higher levels. One in particular made my jaw drop! That horse was a bloody saint to put up with the jiggling and bouncing and reins being used as handlebars. They came out with respectable scores and got 1st and 2nd ribbons. EVERY part of her body was bouncing at the sitting trot, head, shoulders, hands, knees, calves and feet kept on hitting him with spurs every stride due to the lack of body control.

I’m only wallowing in the lower levels and am generally in awe of the rider skills that can take them past 4th level. I usually get a 65 on rider position in my tests so I’m not great but I can sit my mare’s big trot.

What could get such a horrible rider good scores at the higher levels? Is the horse being looked at more than the rider?

[emipou]

I don’t know. I suck enough as a rider, it’s not really my business how others ride their horses. I guess on one hand, you could keep it as a personal learning experience to yourself? Every rider has some weakness though.
Wouldn’t it suck if you were scrolling here one day and someone else created a post regarding some show and the horrible riding, and it dawned on that they were talking about you?

[Training_Cupid]

The directives for each test are pretty clear, you should know what you’re (or other riders) being scored on. Or at least I’m assuming it’s the same in Canada. Here, we have collective marks for “Rider’s Position and Seat” and “Rider’s Correct and Effective Use of the Aids”, which is a total of 20 points out of 200+. The rest of the test is not directly related to the rider’s style, though obviously the rider will (with few exceptions) affect how the horse goes.
I sure hope this rider you are raking over the coals here doesn’t have some medical condition. Maybe they’re just doing the best they can.

[x-halt-salute]

@Chestnut_Mare

I went to a local Gold show recently and could not believe how horrible some of the riders’ positions were at the higher levels. One in particular made my jaw drop! That horse was a bloody saint to put up with the jiggling and bouncing and reins being used as handlebars. They came out with respectable scores and got 1st and 2nd ribbons. EVERY part of her body was bouncing at the sitting trot, head, shoulders, hands, knees, calves and feet kept on hitting him with spurs every stride due to the lack of body control.

I’m only wallowing in the lower levels and am generally in awe of the rider skills that can take them past 4th level. I usually get a 65 on rider position in my tests so I’m not great but I can sit my mare’s big trot.

What could get such a horrible rider good scores at the higher levels? Is the horse being looked at more than the rider?

The scoring system does indeed focus more on the horse than the rider (with an implicit assumption that it takes a good rider to produce good movement from the horse).

But honestly, I’m not about to judge other riders’ positions if they are humane and produce quality movement from their horses. If riders balance on the reins or spur accidentally on every stride I don’t know of too many judges who will turn a blind eye, especially at the upper levels – it will be scored and commented on appropriately in the collectives. But if the horse nevertheless executes a good test the overall score can be high, thanks to the preponderance of good movement scores. We all had a pretty good debate about the relative contributions of riding, innate ability of the horse, and all else that goes into a dressage test after the Del Mar fiasco, and in response to the FEI proposal to drop collectives other than rider score.

I’m not seeing the same trend at shows I’ve been to recently.

[WildLittleWren]

I think everyone is doing the best they can. Some people, like myself, deal with chronic pain. My back is beyond messed up from training and hitting the ground too many times. THIS is why I am so anxious of going to a dressage schooling show after 17+ years away from the ring. I am nowhere near what my previous riding ability was, and I am terrified people on the sidelines are judging and talking about “that horrible rider”! The only feedback I want nor need is from the judge.

[Chestnut_Mare1]

I’m sorry if this came out so catty, it was not my intent to rake someone over the coals, however, I’m looking for a discussion on rider skill at different levels.

Being fairly new to the sport (4 years), I thought that one would only move up the levels as a rider when you have reached a certain level of skill. For example, being able to sit the trot on your own horse, using your seat to influence the ride and rely less on the bit and pulling the head around. It seems that riders in my small geographical area move up to the next level each year regardless of an increase in skill level.

If the horse can do it, does the rider simply follow?

My mare can’t halt straight and doesn’t have the strength to stay in frame, but she does lovely lead changes, does that mean I should move from training to 3rd or 4th next year?

For the record, I am an acquaintance of the rider (there are no physical health issues), she talks the talk and had me fooled that she was a GP level rider. This is the first time I saw her ride.

[Manni01]

my opinion… I always get the comment from the judges that my horse is beautiful und very talented (Gaits usually 7.5 and higher) but that I suck as a rider. I am an older rider who did not ride for 20 years and I am riding my horse all by myself. I have occasionally (once or twice a month) lessons but nobody but me is riding the horse. We made it up to 4th level now. I guess I do suck as a rider and the better my horse looks the more I look bad… I tried a lot to change it. So far I wasn’t very successful. So with your comment what do you want me to do… Stop riding???

[x-halt-salute]

@Chestnut_Mare

I’m sorry if this came out so catty, it was not my intent to rake someone over the coals, however, I’m looking for a discussion on rider skill at different levels.

Being fairly new to the sport (4 years), I thought that one would only move up the levels as a rider when you have reached a certain level of skill. For example, being able to sit the trot on your own horse, using your seat to influence the ride and rely less on the bit and pulling the head around. It seems that riders in my small geographical area move up to the next level each year regardless of an increase in skill level.

If the horse can do it, does the rider simply follow?

My mare can’t halt straight and doesn’t have the strength to stay in frame, but she does lovely lead changes, does that mean I should move from training to 3rd or 4th next year?

For the record, I am an acquaintance of the rider (there are no physical health issues), she talks the talk and had me fooled that she was a GP level rider. This is the first time I saw her ride.

We had the discussion about rider skill at higher levels ad nauseam after the whole Del Mar debacle! And in the qualifying rule possibility threads. And to a lesser extent in the FEI collectives thread. Nobody likes seeing unprepared riders putting in embarassingly bad tests on talented horses. But there doesn’t seem to be any evidence that it’s a truly widespread problem.

It’s quite common for riders to use their scores in deciding to move up a level. Perhaps that means the horse’s preparation for the next level will in some cases influence the decision more than the rider’s. I can’t speak to the one level a year regardless of preparedness and prior performance model, as I don’t know anyone who works that way. If a judge’s rider collectives and comments and the counsel of a trainer doesn’t stop riders from signing up for tests they can’t truly ride, what good will a thread on an internet forum do?

If your horse isn’t ready for 3rd or 4th (which she isn’t if she can’t halt straight and isn’t strong enough to carry herself), how does your hypothetical jump to those levels demonstrate a rider simply following a horse that can do it?

This isn’t sounding any less catty with the addendum.

[Chestnut_Mare1]

@Manni01

my opinion… I always get the comment from the judges that my horse is beautiful und very talented (Gaits usually 7.5 and higher) but that I suck as a rider. I am an older rider who did not ride for 20 years and I am riding my horse all by myself. I have occasionally (once or twice a month) lessons but nobody but me is riding the horse. We made it up to 4th level now. I guess I do suck as a rider and the better my horse looks the more I look bad… I tried a lot to change it. So far I wasn’t very successful. So with your comment what do you want me to do… Stop riding???

You’re right, maybe that is what is holding back my riding career. I should probably stop worrying about my skill level and how I look and just go for it. I should probably try that double bride too, maybe it will help my mare stay in frame.

[WildLittleWren]

@Chestnut_Mare

You’re right, maybe that is what is holding back my riding career. I should probably stop worrying about my skill level and how I look and just go for it. I should probably try that double bride too, maybe it will help my mare stay in frame.

I don’t think that is what anyone here means. But your original post came across as catty. This one, even more so.

[Denali6298]

@Chestnut_Mare

You’re right, maybe that is what is holding back my riding career. I should probably stop worrying about my skill level and how I look and just go for it. I should probably try that double bride too, maybe it will help my mare stay in frame.

Not a pure dressage rider but that’s what I’ve been doing at low low levels. My equitation and position has always sucked. It takes a lot of effort for me to look pretty. Am I an effective rider that can use my seat, legs and hands independently? Yes. Do I always look extremely pretty? No. Skill doesn’t always equal presentation. For the record I’m 6’ with a torso that is proportional to my legs. Keeping my upper body where it needs to be is a struggle.

Are they harming the horse?

Sorry you feel your acquaintance is an ugly rider, but in your position I would worry more about myself than whether or not my barnmate or whoever looks pretty. No one likes a rail bird.

[Scribbler]

I get being quietly horrified when a new friend turns out to be much less good than they claimed.

But I’m sure there is one or two in every community. Stars in their own mind. When you say “some” do you really mean lots, or just one, and you feel a bit betrayed because you believed her?

There is nothing you can do about it but smile and look away.

If this is an upper level test in a small community it is quite possible she got 2nd place because there were only 2 entrants in that class.

And yes it is not an equitation class. If the horse has enough brio and training to persevere despite bad riding he will earn the rider a decent score.

It’s the horse that moves up the levels, not the rider. Lots of very competent pros who once won ribbons at Grand Prix end up taking new green sales horses in level one year after year to earn a living.

Likewise an ammie who wants a big boost will buy a schoolmaster if they can afford it. Sometimes that backfires of course. But lots of times they learn to ride the horse well enough.

[Tattooed_Dressage]

@Manni01

my opinion… I always get the comment from the judges that my horse is beautiful und very talented (Gaits usually 7.5 and higher) but that I suck as a rider. I am an older rider who did not ride for 20 years and I am riding my horse all by myself. I have occasionally (once or twice a month) lessons but nobody but me is riding the horse. We made it up to 4th level now. I guess I do suck as a rider and the better my horse looks the more I look bad… I tried a lot to change it. So far I wasn’t very successful. So with your comment what do you want me to do… Stop riding???

You keep riding and being awesome! Seriously.

I’m wondering if perhaps the rider the OP was talking about is a para-rider competing in an able-bodied class? That does often happen if there is no para-dressage classes offered.

[BrokenArrow]

@Chestnut_Mare

You’re right, maybe that is what is holding back my riding career. I should probably stop worrying about my skill level and how I look and just go for it. I should probably try that double bride too, maybe it will help my mare stay in frame.

Where’s the eye roll smiley when you need it?

The thing is, none of us are perfect. We all have our physical struggles and believe me, I don’t think you’d find a rider who doesn’t have something negative to say about their position. In show enviroments, somethings it all goes to hell and there is nothing you can do about it, except ride to your ability with what you have underneath you at the time. My mare’s sit trot is managable for me when she’s soft and going nicely. However, if she spooks and I lose her back, I look like a vomiting cat trying to keep myself stable in the saddle. Does this mean I should never take her out because she MIGHT spook at something and our trot work goes to hell? She’s not a spooky horse so it comes out of the blue. In your theory I should stay at home and never go out because of something that might happen.

People need to stop being so damn judgemental. Worry about yourself and your own horse and stop judging the rest of the world. We’re all doing our absolute best to ride to our skill levels. No one is purposely going out there to look like an idiot.

[lorilu]

I am 65, with various metal parts in my body. I have a saint of a Lusitano who has a VERY hard to sit trot - even when he is properly “over the back” (even my trainer says he is not easy). I am struggling to sit his bigger trots - I am learning 4th level, learning to count changes… and yes, even tho I am getting BETTER, I will NEVER ride as nicely as some. BUt my hands are soft and giving.
And yes I could skip 4th (it’s hard! and 4-3 is murder!) and, like many others, go up to the FEI levels and “fake it” because Bravo has a great P/P… but I struggle along, learning to do it the RIGHT way.

And the very premise of this discussion pisses me off. OP, what level are you riding? You sit your horse’s “big trot” - is is a true Medium or Extended? (somehow I doubt it). You can’t even get your horse to halt straight. You don’t know that a dressage horse doesn’t “stay in frame” - that’s posing. It’s not a “frame” - its coming through from behind into contact. Your horse has “lovely” lead changes - but I bet they are just swaps not changes through collection.

Take a lesson on an upper-level schoolmaster - THEN comment about how a rider should or shouldn’t be riding at a certain level.

Signed: A proud, older, struggling AA.

[Chestnut_Mare1]

I don’t know about the larger dressage communities, but when someone who rides like that gets 1st place in PSG with a score 57% I seriously question the local dressage community. There were only 5 riders in the class. Maybe I’m not educated enough to tell a good ride from a bad one then.

I’m disappointed in this rider and judges and am in awe of her amazing horse to put up with being kicked and yanked throughout the 2 tests I watched.

There were others watching who were very vocal about the ride. I kept my mouth shut, maybe I should not have brought up the subject here either.

I guess I’m just second guessing what it takes to be successful in this sport. Funny thing, my coach warned me about this particular group of riders/coaches/judges. Now I know why.

[Denali6298]

@lorilu

I am 65, with various metal parts in my body. I have a saint of a Lusitano who has a VERY hard to sit trot - even when he is properly “over the back” (even my trainer says he is not easy). I am struggling to sit his bigger trots - I am learning 4th level, learning to count changes… and yes, even tho I am getting BETTER, I will NEVER ride as nicely as some. BUt my hands are soft and giving.
And yes I could skip 4th (it’s hard! and 4-3 is murder!) and, like many others, go up to the FEI levels and “fake it” because Bravo has a great P/P… but I struggle along, learning to do it the RIGHT way.

And the very premise of this discussion pisses me off. OP, what level are you riding? You sit your horse’s “big trot” - is is a true Medium or Extended? (somehow I doubt it). You can’t even get your horse to halt straight. You don’t know that a dressage horse doesn’t “stay in frame” - that’s posing. It’s not a “frame” - its coming through from behind into contact. Your horse has “lovely” lead changes - but I bet they are just swaps not changes through collection.

Take a lesson on an upper-level schoolmaster - THEN comment about how a rider should or shouldn’t be riding at a certain level.

Signed: A proud, older, struggling AA.

Bravo!!!
:applause::applause:

[Denali6298]

@Chestnut_Mare

I don’t know about the larger dressage communities, but when someone who rides like that gets 1st place in PSG with a score 57% I seriously question the local dressage community. There were only 5 riders in the class. Maybe I’m not educated enough to tell a good ride from a bad one then.

I’m disappointed in this rider and judges and am in awe of her amazing horse to put up with being kicked and yanked throughout the 2 tests I watched.

There were others watching who were very vocal about the ride. I kept my mouth shut, maybe I should not have brought up the subject here either.

I guess I’m just second guessing what it takes to be successful in this sport. Funny thing, my coach warned me about this particular group of riders/coaches/judges. Now I know why.

OP worry about your damn self. Can you ride a PSG test? On a school master? I doubt it.

Were you happy with your scores? Did you think they were fair?

[Chestnut_Mare1]

@lorilu

I am 65, with various metal parts in my body. I have a saint of a Lusitano who has a VERY hard to sit trot - even when he is properly “over the back” (even my trainer says he is not easy). I am struggling to sit his bigger trots - I am learning 4th level, learning to count changes… and yes, even tho I am getting BETTER, I will NEVER ride as nicely as some. BUt my hands are soft and giving.
And yes I could skip 4th (it’s hard! and 4-3 is murder!) and, like many others, go up to the FEI levels and “fake it” because Bravo has a great P/P… but I struggle along, learning to do it the RIGHT way.

And the very premise of this discussion pisses me off. OP, what level are you riding? You sit your horse’s “big trot” - is is a true Medium or Extended? (somehow I doubt it). You can’t even get your horse to halt straight. You don’t know that a dressage horse doesn’t “stay in frame” - that’s posing. It’s not a “frame” - its coming through from behind into contact. Your horse has “lovely” lead changes - but I bet they are just swaps not changes through collection.

Take a lesson on an upper-level schoolmaster - THEN comment about how a rider should or shouldn’t be riding at a certain level.

Signed: A proud, older, struggling AA.

Before I bought my mare and we moved to a new town I was riding an upper-level school master in lessons twice a week for a couple of months. It was fun because all the buttons where installed and if I happened to ask correctly, he gave me the movement even though I was up there like a sack of potatoes.

You are right, I don’t have the skill or the horse to ride upper levels yet, but neither does this rider - well, she does have the horse to help her along.

[Chestnut_Mare1]

@Denali6298

OP worry about your damn self. Can you ride a PSG test? On a school master? I doubt it.

Were you happy with your scores? Did you think they were fair?

Yes, I believe my scores were fair. I received 61 on Training 1 and 69 on Training 3 on our first outing earlier this year. My riding and ego is not nearly good enough to move up with such low scores.