[QUOTE=Kyzteke;3822190]
Thanks S14, but I don’t have to “look them up,” I’ve owned many and known many more. Some have been fine with kids – others not so much. Depends (again) on handling & socialization.
I love 'em too, but when the ones with a more aggressive mind-set get into attack mode they are pretty hard to “turn off.”[/QUOTE]
One of the saddest stories I ever read was about a Pit Bull who jumped between a grandmother with her granddaughter and took a bit on the face from a King Cobra. They tried to save the dog but there was no hope. The owner rushed home from work and his dog, it’s face horribly swollen waged it’s tail, licked his hand and died in his arms.
Wish I still had that story.
They are totally ban here so I will not run into them again in my area.
OK, I vote we skip the “shooting dogs” part of OP’s concerns as an alternative. I feel like 99% of the time there is no contact between dog/horses so lets not get crazy here! Of course it CAN happen but likely it WON’T happen so…
Why not just keep moving away from the dog in a slow,steady pace so the dog thinks he’s scaring the monster/interloper away. Seems to work for me every time! It tells your horse that it should just ignore a barking dog and that it’s just no big thing. Use a calm friendly voice to both animals. I have used “good boy” to the dog too when I am clearly trespassing into his territory and I know he’s doing what the owner wants him to do. They ALWAYS stop at the end of thier turf. I pass regularly behind an estate where there are 2 watchdogs who always bark & come out growling to tell me to “go away”. I know they are very sweet dogs (Kuvacz?) just doing their job. Heck my basset hound barks & growls whenever a car goes by on our rather isolated road. I know she’s actually scared and protecting us.
And funny how horses learn about barking dogs. Mine foxhunt, know all the local farm dogs and ignore them. But everyonce in awhile; we come upon a new or stranger dog and they get alert & on their toes. They are young and learning. Sometimes they get nervous when they hear one in the distance. 5 yr olds are in learning mode and I want them to LEARN to remain calm around dogs, different dogs, breeds, places etc. Like everything else; it’s training! Best wishes!
And if breeders such as yourself would cull these agressive dogs instead of telling people how “even the 5 week old puppies are agressive and fight” then we might not be having this conversation. Serious breeders who are seriously concerned about the breed don’t breed agressive dogs. Ever. It’s the Holy Grail of bully breeding.
Patricia McConnel has a story in her book about going to see a litter of puppies and the owner said something like - wait out here while I move the mother to another room because she’s really protective of her puppies. Patricia said thank you but no thank you and got in her car and left without even looking at the puppies. Her point was that you cannot accept anything but perfection in temperment or you create monsters instead of family pets.
No one accepts it when horse breeders breed agressive stallions and mares and then “hope for the best” but people do it with dogs all the time and think it’s ok. My parents and I went to look at a stallion and he was handled with a lip chain. My mom asked if she could touch him and the owner said no. The stallion was pissy and snappy with his teeth. We threw the literature in the trash as soon as we got home. Why would you breed to that?
And I’ve never heard Cesar call them “warriors.” He says they are powerful breed dogs.
And yeah Pits and Pit crosses are a staple at no-kill shelters. So are Labs and Hounds. Labs, Hounds, and Pits are CHEAP. You can pick up a dog for 50 bucks. Kind of like you can pick up a cheap backyard quarter horse for 100 bucks. But how many Akhal Tekes or German Riding Ponies or Dutch Warmbloods are standing around in back yards being bred and sold for a hundred bucks?? Not many. Easy access to cheap dogs - so that’s what people buy. They sell them in the parking lots of Walmart. During the spring time on my way to work, I probably pass 5 homemade signs stuck out in the yard “Puppies for sale.” These aren’t expensive, rare breed dogs. They’re Labs, Hounds, Pits, Herding crosses, or just muts.
I don’t think Pits flood shelters just because they’re Pits. I think they flood shelters because they are so cheap to get and so abundant.
A-2–to clarify, I’m not spreading trash about pits, I’ve had 'em, love the breed, would have one now except Mr Jeano Does Not Do Terriers.
A pit dog, especially a hog dog (commonly pits are kept in this part of the world specifically as catch dogs or hog hunting dogs) are bred to tackle large prey and to bite and hold on like grim death. That kind of dog is not going to be deterred by anything short of something that will cause a lot more shock and awe than a pellet or two of birdshot from a 22. That was all I said, not one word about slavering pitbulls being the Breed From Hell all set to ravish and destroy innocent horsies and riders.
I couldnt agree more that irresponsilbe owners, MOST of whom are too clueless to SPAY AND NEUTER, are filling the shelters with bad dogs, good dogs, and far too many dogs.
I cant rant about backyard horsebreeders, unfortunately I am a purchaser of grade horses who undoubtedly keeps them funded with all my high dollar purchases of same. Oh, wait, no, that makes me a “rescuer”.
All my non-livestock pets are from shelters or foundlings.
Um what he said… yes there are plenty of ways a gun can go wrong. I have done civil war stuff and CMAS SASS whatever name you were under.
But it was the you can’t go wrong -not what will go wrong… plenty could go wrong with or without. Thats a specious argument. But if you train yourself and your horse, its one of the safest things to do.
But as we can see that isn’t in the OP’s not really intersted in that… okay fine.
Next thought.
While I WANT to agree with you that no sensible person would breed despite a dog/horse anythings look regardless of the disposition… its done all the time. I hate to bring up a breed that is used frequently but Arabs have a horrible reputation for being nuts in the show world. Why because people have been breeding them for looks not for brains and I can tell you my stallion would not be as such if he was remotely unstable. I don’t have time for that… its imperative that people put aside oh he is so bla bla bla for the reality that character is a huge part of an animal, it isn’t just looks.
A2 me thinks we agree on more than meets the eye! I like you more and more every day!
[QUOTE=Auventera Two;3822418]
No one accepts it when horse breeders breed agressive stallions and mares and then “hope for the best” but people do it with dogs all the time and think it’s ok. My parents and I went to look at a stallion and he was handled with a lip chain. My mom asked if she could touch him and the owner said no. The stallion was pissy and snappy with his teeth. We threw the literature in the trash as soon as we got home. Why would you breed to that?
And I’ve never heard Cesar call them “warriors.” He says they are powerful breed dogs.
Just to clarify - you stated that a small shell might deter a dog but “pit bulls now might be another story.”
And that is trash, and it’s false. Both Pits I’ve had would rather roll over and die than get yelled at by their mum. My guy goes running for his kennel if people raise their voice. He pees all over himself if anything scary happens. The other two dogs rule the roost and all it takes is an ugly look from them to send the big scary killer pit bull rolling on his back with his belly exposed begging for mercy. He has scars and fear to show he was abused then dumped, probably when he wouldn’t fight. His hocks have thick callouses and no fur so he was probably kenneled on concrete. He is terrified of things like the manure fork, brooms, wheelbarrow, sticks, etc. He dives for cover at the smallest bit of commotion.
If you talk to owners of Pits, even ones that came from bad bloodlines and are unsocialized, they’re usually much quicker to tuck tail and retreat than to launch an unprovoked attack.
PEOPLE act differently around Pits and that causes a whole lot of trouble. The first time my friend came over and saw my dog she grimmaced, said he had an “ugly mug” and “i wouldn’t trust that dog.” Poor guy, he did nothing to deserve that. He’s a super sweet boy. She wouldn’t pet him, and if he got near, she held her arms up to her chest like he would just reach up and rip her fingers off or something.
Dogs sense that fearful, unbalanced energy. It puts them on alert, and makes them nervous. We are the problem, not Pit Bulls. Cigarettes kill 450,000 people a year. Pit bulls?? 3-5. Which one should be feared? You figure it out. Shark attacks, plane crashes, murders, influenza, and lightning strikes kill more people than Pit Bulls.
Regardless of belief, Pits were never bred to be human aggressive. Read the story in my sig about Michael Vicks’ dogs. Of the 51 dogs that were bred and trained to fight, and lived in horrific conditions with no socialization and daily abuse and neglect, only one had to be euthanized because he was too vicious to be homed. The others share their lives with people, even children, who love them.
I respect the fears that other people have, but please just don’t push your fears off on everybody else. Just because you’re afraid of a Pit Bull doesn’t mean you should throw out comments about how a bullet wouldn’t even deter a Pit Bull. Please. It’s just more bad rap these dogs don’t need
All I’m trying to say is that any dog could attack a horse, Pit Bull or Chihuahua, Black Lab, or Rottweiller. The dog that attacked the OP’s horse was a hunting dog of some sort.
Breeders of any species select those characteristics that they think the market (or their own peculiar needs) will best appreciate. This includes physical characteristics as well as temperment.
In the early ‘70s we bred St. Bernards and Bernese Mountain Dogs. Saints at that time were under some “popularity” pressure and there were some very questionable lines being bred (some serious temperment issues). As long as people were willing to pay for the animals’ production they got bred. I knew some breeders who ended up with some of these very questionable animals and many ended up being put down. You just can’t have a “mean streak” in 175 pound dog.
The Berners were different. When we were active they were a “rare” breed and you had to work to find one. In the late 70s and early 80s they got very popular and anybody who could come up with a dog and bitch became a “breeder.” All of our Berners died of cancer, all between the ages of 9 and 11 years. We recently researched getting another and found that they still die of cancer, but now lots between the ages of 3 and 5 years.
In any animal if you breed the best to the best you’ll likely get a good result. If you breed skank to skank you’re gonna likely get skank. If you breed best to skank you don’t what you’ll get. That’s where the term “crapshoot breeding” comes from.
Dog breeds, like horse breeds, have bred in temperments (just like they have bred in color, way of going, cow sense, tracking ability, etc.). Dogs bred for agression will behave aggressively.
Agreed. If you get a good Pit Bull from a good, reputable breeder, they won’t have aggressive tendencies. Couple that with correct socialization and training, and you’ll likely end up with a friend for life. Good bully breeders don’t propogate aggression.
Pitting dogs were selectively bred and trained for pitting with rats, bear and bull baiting. They were not bred and trained to attack humans. I would argue that some of the other german guarding breeds have been far more selectively bred and trained as guard dogs and are more likely to attack humans than a Pit Bull.
Being a terrier, the dogs have a chase instinct. Something like 70% of attacks are on small, male children, by dogs that are improperly socialized, untrained and usually intact males. Some Pit experts think that boys are most likely to taunt dogs and then run to get them to “play.” The dog reverts to its instinct to chase and hunt this small prey. Couple it with hormones and no training or socialization and you can watch the carnage unfold.
Just like you wouldn’t let a small child run through the legs of a 2 year old Thoroughbred stallion right off the track and hang off his tail, children shouldn’t be allowed to play with an unsocialized, untrained, intact male Pit Bulls. Or any dogs sharing those same characteristics.
It’s really unfortunate that most “Pit Bull Attacks” are never quantified with all the details. In most cases the dogs have very unfavorable characteristics anyway and came from bad homes with bad histories. And in many cases they aren’t Pit Bulls at all but other breeds and have been misidentified.
Horses with similar characteristics and histories would not be labeled ruthless killers worthy of breed extinction. They would be labeled rescues with an abusive past, and they would go into good homes who can care for them properly and rehab them. War horses of old fought right along with their human to kick in heads and trample unto death, but we don’t label them as killers today.
Remember the story of the girl who died when she tied a leadrope around her waist and then was drug to death by her horse? Is it the horse’s fault or the child’s? The poor little girl did a silly thing, like children tend to do. It’s not her “fault” but it wasn’t the horse’s either. The horse is an animal with an instinct - run. Dogs have instincts too and humans are usually the ones at fault.
This is a tough issue. I’ve followed it for a long time but I think the breed hysteria is unwarranted.
I am a fan of the Dobies. I think they are handsome and fleet. I also want one as someone who grew up in the sticks I have a strong desire to be proactive in my safety. I have been told and believe I am a fair looking woman, who could potentially run into an ill begotten suitor especially as I enjoy running…
in which case I looked at breeds and the atheletes and which ones people go… awwww how cute and the ones that people just sort of shy away. Airdales are good running partners, keep up with the horse, little high maintance for me despite that they don’t shed. But they have this propensity to draw folks to them… aw how cute effect.
I can’t stand that as a single woman running. So Dobies it was… and I was completely capitolizing on the fact that people believe they are agressive dogs.
If you a. know one or b. care to do a little research you’ll quickly find they are well adjusted happy family home dogs.
Saying that pits are agressive and bla bla bla… its like saying all men are sexist, all women are flakes… yeah there are some, but don’t paint them all with the same brush. Its fair to know one and only serves to make you look as ignorant as you probably are.
Actually backed up and read again quiet a bit more.
and the answer is YES. You can do these things.
We rode with revolvers, not a mag, so you get 6 shots, make 'em count. And after I got to the point where I rode alone frequently for longer distances and my father was diployed, I aways wore a colt 45 revolver.
You horse despite being excited, should be controlled under you, even in an anxious state. Thats what training is. You of all people should understand this, you are constantly talking about training… now here you go.
And you ride with your gun on your hip and no where else. if you come off, it shouldn’t be on your back, you can break your spine. You should learn how to fall with it on… know that it WILL hurt, you will be bruised… deal. Move on. You may only carry it under something if you have a CCW. If you ride, you should practice with an unloaded pistol or a fake… practice walk trot and canter, drawing… why… so you don’t shoot your horse’s ear off, they tend to not take kindly to that. You should also practice reload. Forget a mag, try 6 actual shells… its just practice. Slow is steady, steady is smooth smooth is fast. Period. Training is more time spent dropping mags/reloading pulling from the hip, recoil return and seating again than actual shooting. And yes… you can do it. Its a pain in the ever living balls, but yes you can…
You should never allow a dog to come close enough that you should be worried about him at your horse’s heels. If at 50-25 feet the dog is coming fast, you should already be drawn and prepared. at 25 and closing there better be blanks one in the air usually is best. Then put it down in the dirt… at that point, if he is still coming, you should be able to actually get him… as stated a 45 blank will do damage… not much but enough.
The Dobe was the “red neck guard dog” of the '70s. Along with the German Shepard it was desired by the “trailer trash” crowd because it was “mean” and would provide “protection.” Sadly, there was a grain of truth in this as Dobes and Saints (and Shepards) suffered temperment issues resulting from the “breed popularity syndrome.”
In addition to being members of the local dog training club we were members of a kennel club where we trained dogs for the show ring. One night I was sitting on the floor with my Berner, leaning against the wall and watching my wife work with one of our Saints, when I was “buried” under three Dobes. They all crawled into my lap (or tried to), rolled over on the backs, and wanted their bellies rubbed. Given the breeds reputation, I was taken aback! The owner, who was talking with another member, saw what had happened and came over, shooing the dogs off and appologizing profusely. I told her “no harm, no foul” and we had a nice conversation about Dobes (and Berners and Saints). I learned a lot that evening about a quality breeding program, what it took to establish one, and what it took to maintain one.
It is possible with intelligent selective breeding to breed for very targeted agression. Sadly, not all breeding is intelligent. Nor is every intelligent breeding 100% successful. If breeders of aggressive animals are willing to “cull” (and by this I mean put down) those with temperment issues or misplaced target issues I’ve got no “heartburn.” In our current mileau of “rescue everything” I have little or no faith that breeders accress the board are willing to do that. This may be damnably unfair to responsible breeders, but there it is.
[QUOTE=Guilherme;3823152]
In our current mileau of “rescue everything” I have little or no faith that breeders accress the board are willing to do that. This may be damnably unfair to responsible breeders, but there it is.
G.[/QUOTE]
the ones I have know are goofy as hell! I love it!
and as a stallion owner, I can’t tell you how much anti stallion crap there is… Its really sad. Its RESPONSIBILITY that we need… not warm fuzzies all the time…
And its funny cause hardly anyone believes my boy is intact, I had people all up under there checking b/c they simply didn’t believe. I’m blessed with a truly smart horse, but as A2 said… only as good as the training allows.
Our Chow died a few months ago but that’s another breed that’s been unfairly criticized. He was also a rescue, a really good boy but he looked like a small black bear and scared the crap out of most people. :lol: I found him while riding in the woods. He was infested with fleas and half starved. When I wrestled him into the bath tub to attempt drowning the fleas, the water turned black and the surface was moving like a mass of black jello. :dead: He was so grateful for the de-fleaing and some good meals that he became THE most devoted dog I’d ever seen. We had him 10 years and never saw any aggression.
The MOST aggressive dogs we ever had were two Afghan Hounds. They were a real mess, the male especially. Again, rescues. I was a small kid and after the male chased me up onto the hood of the car and tried to eat me for lunch, then bit my uncle, he was euthanized.
And the next scariest moment of my life was being repeatedly knocked down by my grandmother’s gander goose and flogged and pecked. Good grief, I remember sneaking around hiding from the stupid goose, trying to make it from house to barn or barn to garage before that thing came after me. My family laughs at looking out the window to see me face down on the ground in a snow suit with the goose in the middle of my back. Yeah guys, real funny. :o That same goose attacked a man that stopped at the house to see my grandma. The guy was kicking at the goose and that thing just kept flying up in the air and going for his face. Then a few years ago I got flogged by another one of those flappy bastards while trying to feed them some bread at the wildlife sanctuary. Based on my horrible goose experiences, THOSE things should be banned!! :eek: :lol: :lol: :lol:
well, do I have any more credibility if I share that I’ve been goose-bitten myself? (Moral of story, dont put your hand close to a setting goose.)
Someone I used to work with looked at my geese with horror and said “Those things will chase you!!” to which I replied, “Not if you dont run from them, they wont.”
Me, I have no special fear of pitbulls as pitbulls, but a lot of fear of ANY unscocialized or trained/encouraged to bite and hang on dog of any breed. That would include pitbulls with clueless owners who havent obedience trained their dogs and pitbulls used to catch livestock, since my horse could qualify.
They can be very determined dogs, which is why they have been used against formidable opponents likes bulls, hogs…and other pitbulls. Pain doesnt necessarily deter them, assuming they even feel it when they are hyped up. This goes for any dog that is engaged in aggressive activity, including my own two border collie puppies when their sparring escalates into a dog fight.
And once again, I am NOT anti pitbull and dont think they are somehow born without pain receptors. My old pit definitely felt pain when his arthritis acted up. But when he was a young dog and tussling with his favorite toy, a bowling ball, he would worry that thing until his mouth was bloody. So we stopped letting him play with it, because the pain in his mouth while he was “fighting” it didnt seem to register.
That’s at least as scientific an observation as anything else on this thread.
Its cool comfort to anyone witnessing, as I have, a horse being bitten by a dog, to know that its a vanishingly small risk. Uh, not when the biting dog lives next door.
[QUOTE=tnales;3815809]
A few people are wondering where this happened. It was on the Goethe State Forest in North Florida. I just looked at the hunting schedule and it is small game season. My husband explained to me yesterday that you can take wild hog during most hunting seasons and he thought that this dog was for wild hog hunting. [/QUOTE]
Just FYI -
You cannot hunt hogs with a dog during quail season. It’s still quail season at that WMA. If the hunter was a lawful hunter then the dog in question was a bird dog; trained to point or flush small game. There is an open season on feral hogs but the use of dogs is restricted to avoid interfering with other hunters and nonconsumptive users.
The advice given by gothedistance and others is pretty good. Other suggestions can be found on the WMA brochure.
I wouldn’t mollycoddle the horse. Turns a good horse into a nervous wreck; ready to dump its owner every time a squirrel farts. Sorry that happened; I’d have been upset too.
[QUOTE=tnales;3815809]
A few people are wondering where this happened. It was on the Goethe State Forest in North Florida. I just looked at the hunting schedule and it is small game season. My husband explained to me yesterday that you can take wild hog during most hunting seasons and he thought that this dog was for wild hog hunting. I know that you don’t want me to call it a hunting dog, but that’s what the owner called it, and he was in full camo. The dog wore a flourescent orange collar. The kind they use for hunting dogs. I promise you, if a clown had come out of the forest, and the dog had on a too-too, I would have called it a circus dog.
My husband did ask the owner if the dog was up-to-date on his rabies shots. He said that he was, but we didn’t get his name or number. My husband just told him that he didn’t ever want to see that dog on our property again. My horses injuries are not bad enough to need stitches so we didn’t call the vet, but now I am worried about the rabies.[/QUOTE]
Hey Tnales, when you posted this I was wondering if you were in Florida. I go to Goethe sometimes, and yes, they do hunt boar there with dogs, and I wouldn’t be surprised if the dogs attacked a horse. I think you handled the situation the best you could. You should call FWC to report the incident, as you just as easily could have been seriously hurt if the horse threw you, or the dog attacked you after your dismount. I see kids riding out there and I’d hate to have that same hunter with the same dog have a repeat performance with a child on a pony.
JSwan is correct about the season, but I see them hunting out there all year round. Came across a guy shooting gator once (not sure if it they have a gator ‘season’ although I think you can bag 5). This is Florida, after all
I haven’t had time to read the rest of the posts, so sorry if I am repeating any info/advice!
[QUOTE=Beasmom;3823290]
When geese are outlawed, only outlaws will have geese.
Sounds like geese are an effective alternative to guard dogs.[/QUOTE]
You’re quite right; they are very effective “watch critters.”
The Roman Army “trailed” flocks of geese when they went into the field. They were turned loose after camp had been set up and allowed to roam. Way better than human sentries, according to reports.
The owner, who was talking with another member, saw what had happened and came over, shooing the dogs off and appologizing profusely. I told her “no harm, no foul” and we had a nice conversation about Dobes (and Berners and Saints). I learned a lot that evening about a quality breeding program, what it took to establish one, and what it took to maintain one.
