[QUOTE=Shadow14;3823875]
The way I read it it was sheep that they trailed behind the army when they went into the field:):)[/QUOTE]
You sure they used the sheep as an early warning system? ;):winkgrin:
[QUOTE=Guilherme;3823816]
You’re quite right; they are very effective “watch critters.”
The Roman Army “trailed” flocks of geese when they went into the field. They were turned loose after camp had been set up and allowed to roam. Way better than human sentries, according to reports. 
G.[/QUOTE]
I have three geese (two Africans and a tufted roman) and no one comes on the farm without me knowing it. I used to have a Belgian Malinois dog who ‘flunked’ cop school, but looked the part anyway. If someone pulled up to the front gate, she would meet them halfway up the drive and sit, looking menacing. Well, the UPS guy used to come in the gate, drive up the drive, pet the dog, give her a biscuit and put my packages on the porch. Then I got the geese. Now I’m lucky if he wraps my packages in plastic before he chucks them over the fence.
Not to go off topic but I have a dog that is horse aggressive. He’s an australian shepherd and his attitude with horses seems to be “I better get it before it gets me.” He is a rescue so I think a lot of this comes from having a fully formed aussie brain but no exposure to horses (or bikes, skateboards, joggers, skaters, and apparently bearded men wearing hats). I am working with a trainer and we have worked through a lot of his issues and he is becoming a good boy. The trainer plans on coming to the barn to see if we can solve this one as well. (My dream is to be able to let him come to the barn and run around while I care for the horses. The more exercise he gets the better.) Anyway, have any of you ever cured a dog of horse aggression and if so, how? Or is he just a lost cause when it comes to horses, destined to spend his mornings locked in the house rather than running in the fields?
Part of my training loop use to go along a grass section that was used by dog walkers. There would be 6-10 people walking their dogs off leash along this stretch. Everyone seemed to know me a Strider and most just let the dogs loose to sniff him. I would stop, say hello and then pick up a good run, certainly nothing really fast but a good run and the whole pack would try running me. I would go say 1/4 mile with them strung out behind me, certainly they couldn’t outrun him but then I would turn and run them back to their owners… Never did I have a problem with them bitting, sure there were some healers but nothing that hurt Strider and he never kicked any.
It was just good fun and the owners only complaint was they loved his poop:lol::lol:
S
Wow, I haven’t checked in for a couple of days. This thing has taken off. Lots of good advice and I thank you all for that. As far as using a gun, I actually thought about a pellet gun right away, but when I mentioned it to my daughter she said “You’d have to be one heck of a shot to actually get the dog with a pellet while your horse was spinning around trying to kick it.” She’s right. While it was happening, my hands were in his mane while holding the reins and a crop. I couldn’t even see the dog once he got under my horse. I was just shocked that the dog didn’t run away like all the rest. I don’t know what I would do if it happened again. Hopefully that was a once in a lifetime event.
Are there such things as expandable-handle cattle prod?
[QUOTE=Chall;3824359]
Are there such things as expandable-handle cattle prod?[/QUOTE]
With the horse dancing around and you hanging on for dear life how would you handle a cattle prod?? Would this also mean you have to carry the thing on every ride?? The chances of this happening again are slim so just hope and keep riding. The next time if it happens hopefully you can outrun the dog and clear out of the are IF it happens every again.
I assume you are not new to riding and this is your first time encountering something like this and hopefully your last but carrying a gun and actually shooting a dog is unlikely and dangerous and a cattle prod while not dangerous, well shocking but not life and death is just too much trouble and if the horse is really panicing how are you going to handle it anyway.
I kept promising myself I would stay out of this but…if you want to carry a “weapon” against stray dogs that are not deterred by your voice, then carry a foxhunting whip.
It isn’t hard to teach your horse to tolerate a hunt whip in action. I’ve done it with all my foxhunters – takes about two lessons, and they lose the wide-eyed look for a bored expression. And it isn’t hard to aim it at your target (in our case, a foxhound that is rioting <running on the scent of the wrong game>) even as your horse is galloping and dodging trees and whatnot. If you are good, you can crack it on either side of the horse.
Most of the time all it takes is one good CRACK with the whip in the air to stop a dog dead in it’s tracks and cause a quick canine retreat – even a dog like the one that came after the OP.
Furthermore, a hunt whip is designed to be carried while riding. It is the ultimate cur/hound control for the equestrian.
The photos below show a typical hunt whip, and one being carried by a Huntman.
[QUOTE=Auventera Two;3822418]
And if breeders such as yourself would cull these agressive dogs instead of telling people how “even the 5 week old puppies are agressive and fight” then we might not be having this conversation. Serious breeders who are seriously concerned about the breed don’t breed agressive dogs. Ever. It’s the Holy Grail of bully breeding.
Patricia McConnel has a story in her book about going to see a litter of puppies and the owner said something like - wait out here while I move the mother to another room because she’s really protective of her puppies. Patricia said thank you but no thank you and got in her car and left without even looking at the puppies. Her point was that you cannot accept anything but perfection in temperment or you create monsters instead of family pets.
No one accepts it when horse breeders breed agressive stallions and mares and then “hope for the best” but people do it with dogs all the time and think it’s ok. My parents and I went to look at a stallion and he was handled with a lip chain. My mom asked if she could touch him and the owner said no. The stallion was pissy and snappy with his teeth. We threw the literature in the trash as soon as we got home. Why would you breed to that?
And I’ve never heard Cesar call them “warriors.” He says they are powerful breed dogs.
And yeah Pits and Pit crosses are a staple at no-kill shelters. So are Labs and Hounds. Labs, Hounds, and Pits are CHEAP. You can pick up a dog for 50 bucks. Kind of like you can pick up a cheap backyard quarter horse for 100 bucks. But how many Akhal Tekes or German Riding Ponies or Dutch Warmbloods are standing around in back yards being bred and sold for a hundred bucks?? Not many. Easy access to cheap dogs - so that’s what people buy. They sell them in the parking lots of Walmart. During the spring time on my way to work, I probably pass 5 homemade signs stuck out in the yard “Puppies for sale.” These aren’t expensive, rare breed dogs. They’re Labs, Hounds, Pits, Herding crosses, or just muts.
I don’t think Pits flood shelters just because they’re Pits. I think they flood shelters because they are so cheap to get and so abundant.[/QUOTE]
You need to go back and read for comprehension, sweetie.
*“even the 5 week old puppies are agressive and fight” * NOT what I said.
Every one of those pups went on to good homes and were good dogs. As I told you in the PM (since you now want to bring it public) the sire was a Champion AND a family dog, the dam was the best kid’s dog I ever owned and would wander loose happily all over the LA Equestrian Center and get pets by all and sundry (including Robert Duvall who called her "the weirdest looking dog I’ve ever seen <g>). The barn cat would curl up and sleep next to her as well. And one of the females from this bitch’s first litter went on to get her championship at only 18 months old – almost unheard of for a female bully.
My gawd— what HORRIBLE bloodlines.
But these dogs were bred for the pit originally and if you talk to enough breeders most will admit that if any of their dogs show even the slightest tendency towards discord with each other, they will never, EVER leave those two dogs alone unattended.
As for your idea that the shelter is full of pits because they are so “cheap”, well it so happened I visited our local shelter today. Something like 20+ pit/pit-crosses up for adoption. Yet I can get heelers for $50 or less around here, lab-cross puppies for free all day long – just as two examples. There was ONE heeler there, ONE heeler cross and 2-3 lab crosses. Ans 20+ pits…hmmm…
There are certain breeds that are simply not suited for certain lifestyles or certain people. JRTs are another, but they only weight 10-20 lbs, so it’s not as big a deal when they get frustrated and act up. They eat your sofa or dig 100 holes in your yard – maybe nip the kid once or twice, but they won’t chew up the toddler.
It IS a big deal when a 90 lb pit who is off-leash for probably the first time in ages wants to burn off some aggression by taking on a child, horse, another dog – WHICH IS WHAT THEY WERE BRED TO DO.
You know, maybe making some little 2 lb froo-froo dog into Cojo Jr. is also the owner’s fault. Probably so. Ditto with the pit who attacks. You’re not getting any argument from me there and I’d said that several times. I LIKE the breed, as I’ve also said. But when things get ugly and it’s your kid on the ground getting chewed, whose fault it is is not real important to the parent.
If I didn’t love dogs as much as I do I would wager you any amount of $$ that you could take a random goldie from any litter and a random pit from any litter and by improper handling you could make the pit turn into a biter and the goldie either never would or would take twice as long.
Why? BECAUSE THEY ARE DIFFERENT. Even CM says that – he says “make sure your lifestyle is suitable for a powerful breed.” And, yes, in his tv show he calls them either “warrior” or gladiator breeds.
Just two examples of pit tenacity:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/services/newspaper/printedition/sunday/localandstate/orl-pitbull2808dec28,0,1583004.story
And this one:
http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamascounty/index.ssf/2008/11/90pound_pit_bull_attacks_girl.html
Now, I can read between the lines on the second. Dog locked in basement for heaven knows how long. Now outside UNSUPERVISED with hyperactive, squealing 7 yr old spinning around on a tire swing. Probably alot of dogs in that case might have nipped or even took one good bit. But this pit fought off 3 people, got hit over 40 times with a base ball bat, choked, dragged – and the only thing that finally stopped him was a bullet in the head. Very sad, but I will argue to the end of time that no goldie or lab or poodle or cockerspaniel would hang in there that long.
So you go merrily skipping along telling everybody that pits are so easy and so wonderful and every one should have one and then MORE people who have no business owning them will get them. Then there will be even more of them in the shelter. You are not doing this breed any favors.
And if you don’t understand that I AM trying to, then there really isn’t any more I can say.
[QUOTE=Las Olas;3823998]
I have three geese (two Africans and a tufted roman) and no one comes on the farm without me knowing it. [/QUOTE]
I had two geese too – one African & one of the big white ones (forget the name). The neighbor’s heeler killer them both. Geese scare people, but dogs don’t seem to be too afraid of them.
Well Kyzteke - I strongly disagree with you. All this nut job hysteria is unwarranted thanks to an uneducated media just trying to get a story. They did it to other powerful breed dogs as well.
You knowingly and willingly bred and sold dogs that were showing aggression at 5 weeks of age. That’s not my definition of a responsible breeder.
Your little goldie challenge is bullsheeeeet. I was in high school, walking our Irish Setter down the block, and a Golden Retriever was inside a sun porch with a screen door. That dog hit that door so hard he tore it half off the hinges and he came after us. He knocked me down and was on top of my dog with teeth and the two of them were brawling for 5 minutes before the owner came out and pulled her dog off. She was holding that dog’s collar and he was reared on his hind feet drooling and teeth snapping. From then on I tried to avoid that house because if we got too close, that dog went balistic, smashing his teeth against the glass door (since the screen door was now off!). I was really scared of that dog.
Our neighbor next door had a long haired black dog of some sort - looked like maybe a shepherd and collie cross or something. He was also a holy terror. It took months before he ceased trying to tear his chain in two and get to us. When I left on a walk, I crossed over the street, went down a block or so, then crossed back over, trying to avoid both dogs. That black one was loose one time and he ran us right back into our own house. He would come at you with a full mouth of teeth. I was scared to death that if he ever knocked me or my dog down that one of us would be toast.
Not two weeks ago a co-worker sent around a “help me” email. She has a herding dog she adopted from the pound that is getting extremely aggressive and she is afraid the dog will end up hurting someone. She is now seeing a behaviorist. All dogs can bite. The hysteria that a Pit Bull is more likely to bite is FALSE. We’ve had a lot of dogs, and the Pits were never the problems.
Like I said, we have had a pure Pit and a Pit cross, and in both situations the dogs came from abuse and neglect and they were fantastic animals with NO problems, no aggression, not even a tiny little inclination to even THINK about biting a human. The female is long since dead now, but she was 50 pounds of bubbling kisses and tail wags for anybody she met. My other dog is half Pit and he’s the same way. The only aggression problems we’ve had were with Afghan Hounds, and my current Beagle/Walker.
ANY dog can turn aggressive for ANY reason. Pain, fear, unsocialized, anything. Pit Bulls are NO more likely to bite a human than any other animal in the same situation. People who are terrified want to justify their fear and throw it all back on the dogs.
I’d be FAR more afraid of a shark attack or a lightning strike than being brutalized by a Pit Bull.
This little terd http://www.hphoofcare.com/S%20(5).jpg bit my husband’s friend on the back of the thigh shortly after we adopted her. She only got his jeans though, not skin. She had MAJOR major major fear issues. She was beaten and dumped and a rescue group got her. For 3 months she hid under furniture after the rescue got her. Deathly terrified of men. He stood up off the couch too fast, she panicked and grabbed him. Any dog can bite. That one was OUR fault. We should not have allowed her to lay on the floor in front of him. If she’d grabbed his finger tips instead, it could have been a serious injury. Dogs like this should never propogate. The problem is that people will breed anything that has the right plumbing.
And no, I never got a PM from you.
I have skipped many posts. To the OP- I have had two good hunting horses attacked by dogs. It caused them great puzzlement, because foxhounds were their friends and often napped at their feet, but no animosity toward dogs in general, even short term. My only regret was that when the one kicked at the dog, he missed (he kicked only after being bitten above the hock). Two other horses I owned, which prior to hunting had been chased through wire fencing by packs of feral dogs resulting in significant injuries, bore no fear of or animosity to either the foxhounds or the dogs around the barn.
I would not ever consider bailing out in such a situation, bailing out for me is only when staying on might result in great harm. I’ve done it twice that I can recall offhand in 50+ years of riding.
With regard to the singling out of pit bulls, or any other breed, I believe very strongly that that is a totally bogus and wrong approach. The most vicious dog I have personally ever dealt with was a black lab. And 11 years ago, walking my two then-pups (Great Dane and terrier) in my neighborhood, 'twas a German Shorthaired Pointer and a Weimaramer that came after them, unprovoked. I have known many pit bulls (and for that matter, dobies and rottweilers) that were real sweethearts, and am old enough to remember that the pet in ‘Our Gang’ was a pit bull. The mutt that recently killed a pet chicken at our barn was a beagle mix. I owned goldens for 20+ years, and bred 3 litters- and I have seen goldens with aggressiveness issues based on poor rearing and handling practices.
It isn’t the breed, it’s the handling. Many McMansion owners remain clueless over the fact that their poopsies, whether poodles or labs or shepherds, pack up with other dogs in the neighborhood and do great harm to livestock and wildlife. Pack mentality is pack mentality.
:lol: When I read the OP, I thought “Well, at least we don’t have to have the same old pit bull argument this time.” I really should have known better.
I think the hunt whip is a GREAT idea. Non lethal way to reach out and touch. Would require some effort and practice for horse and rider but I dont think it would be nearly as dangerous (or satisfying, unfortunately) as some bird shot in the butt.
Off to ride, hopefully will not have to cuss out the local horse biting mutt again.
And in addition (particularly if your horse isn’t used to a whip)- a water pistol can be useful.
More often, though, I find that merely a cheerful hello to the barking dog disarms it. Sometimes- and I don’t recommend this unless you are very good at reading dogs- a ‘don’t you even think about messing with me’ growling voice works.
Do keep in mind that a dog that really means to attack/ bite will do so from the rear, a barking dog in front or running alongside is just doing the macho ‘protecting my turf’ thing.
[QUOTE=Beverley;3825942]
Do keep in mind that a dog that really means to attack/ bite will do so from the rear, a barking dog in front or running alongside is just doing the macho ‘protecting my turf’ thing.[/QUOTE]
I imagine you have more experience of dog/horse encounters than I do, but isn’t a very popular predatory move to go for the throat? True, that seems mildly suicidal for an animal the size of a lone dog attacking an animal the size of a horse, but most dogs who go after a horse seriously aren’t wrapped too tight.
[QUOTE=vacation1;3826009]
I imagine you have more experience of dog/horse encounters than I do, but isn’t a very popular predatory move to go for the throat? True, that seems mildly suicidal for an animal the size of a lone dog attacking an animal the size of a horse, but most dogs who go after a horse seriously aren’t wrapped too tight.[/QUOTE]
Wolves will hamstring a big animal. While one member of the pack keeps the animal’s attention from the front the killer will strike from the back cutting the tendon thus slowing the animal down so the throat hold can be made. No way a wolf can grab the throat of say a big moose. They have to undermine the hind end first.
I have seen my dog make the throat hold twice and both times on command he dropped his hold. Once on a cow and once on a goat.
cats are high… dogs are low.
we had a mountain lion go after our horses in their stalls… between the 3 airdales and the horse… no harm no foul… but we did find some nice claw marks on the back.
typical for a dog to hamstring first.
In general…dogs seriously bent on attacking something will go for the rear end or the underneath of the animal if they’re alone. In a pack situation instinct kicks in and they circle and come from different angles, including the front. But normally a lone dog will not go for the front of an animal…or human most of the time. That’s not to say it never happens, but it’s not the normal approach. People attacked by dogs are almost always bitten on the legs/feet/rear end as they flee. It’s the chase mechanism kicking in…that can turn into the attack response.
I seem to always end up with dog hating horses…not sure why but at least their normal response to dogs is helpful if I’m out on a trail. They kick up a storm, not many dogs can walk away from a kick. And the two I have now are calm compared to two previous mares I’ve had…one of which always went on the attack herself even if the dog wasn’t doing much of anything. She really hated dogs. And was terrified of turkeys. Go figure.
AV2…I don’t think anyone is arguing with you about there being plenty of great pits out there. However, there are also plenty of bad ones too. Not to say they’re inheritently evil, but they have the potential of being walking time bombs. According the american insurance institute the mass majority of serious injuries caused by dogs are by pits…the top 3 listed are intact male pits, intact male pit crosses and neutured or spayed pits. Those 3 groups combined are more than the next 10 breeds combined for causing serious insurance claims due to injuries. Now cocker spaniels may bite more often but they’re not likely to hospitalize anyone. Goldens may be more numerous and do make that top ten list but nowhere near the amount of serious injuries caused by pit and pit crosses. And the insurance institute gets their information directly from both the hospital and the vets who take possession of the dogs who’ve sent people to the hospital. Vets are able to tell if it’s a pit/pit cross or an American Bulldog or Boxer or other semi-popular breeds that are sometimes mistaken for pits.
In this country finding some of the breeds on the silly “find the pitbull” website is like trying to find a unicorn. It’s just not possible that we have enough Dogo Argentinos, Thai Ridgebacks, Boerboels or Ca De Bous to be mistaken for pits thus giving pits a bad rep.
I also wouldn’t base an entire opinion on having owned 2 of a single breed…there are plenty of people who deal with dogs on a much larger scale and come across, own, train or breed many, many more pits and have a more educated grasp on what the breed is capable of.
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