Horse being naughty with others

[the_sandiest_shoes]

My five year old mare gets training sessions from my coach trainer once or twice a week and is otherwise ridden by me. Apparently she is occasionally kicking out while in cross ties/ being held (presumably at flies?) and has also a couple times tried to push my trainer’s groom into the wall.

The trainer disciplines her when she sees this and has complained to me about it. I’ve seen her kick out at flies once before and got after her, but she hasn’t done it since. She’s never pushed me around or against the wall - it doesn’t seem like her. She’s not grumpy to groom at all and seems to enjoy curry combing.

She is a mare though and maybe senses the groom is timid and is being more bullying with her? I want her to behave well but don’t know how to train her for problems I don’t witness firsthand. She’s somewhat young and I’m wondering if she’s testing others like toddlers do.

Trainer also said the pushing into wall thing can be a sign of ulcers. I’ve never heard that. Does anyone have any advice, other than keeping an eye out? I obviously don’t want my horse to hurt anybody. Maybe there are strategies I could practice with her to have her behave better with others?

[Simkie]

I’d be there when your trainer and the groom handles her, to see what’s going on with your own eyes. Mare is doing something with the groom, who’s telling the trainer, who’s telling you…that’s quite the game of telephone. See it for yourself and decide what needs to be done from there.

[Bluey]

Ask them to video a little of that?

Set their phone to video on something close that catches the aisle and crossties and see what is happening there.

[Denali6298]

@Simkie

I’d be there when your trainer and the groom handles her, to see what’s going on with your own eyes. Mare is doing something with the groom, who’s telling the trainer, who’s telling you…that’s quite the game of telephone. See it for yourself and decide what needs to be done from there.

This. It’s quite easy to fix the pushing into the wall thing. Kicking at flies? Does she do that with you?

I’m trying to figure out how to ask this next question gently. Do you as an owner give the impression that you do not like people to discipline your horse? I ask only because this behavior is quite fixable, especially if she doesn’t do it with you. If she does, I suggest to start training her.

[the_sandiest_shoes]

@Denali6298

This. It’s quite easy to fix the pushing into the wall thing. Kicking at flies? Does she do that with you?

I’m trying to figure out how to ask this next question gently. Do you as an owner give the impression that you do not like people to discipline your horse? I ask only because this behavior is quite fixable, especially if she doesn’t do it with you. If she does, I suggest to start training her.

No, I definitely don’t give that impression - obviously not ok with abuse of my horse but I trust my trainer and her discretion for reasonable discipline of a 1,000 pound animal. She kicked out a flies once with me and I got after her swiftly/firmly enough that she never did it with me again. My trainer also disciplined her when she saw the fly kick-out and I don’t think she did it again with her.

Could be I just need to tell the groom in person how to quickly shut down the behavior and explain she doesn’t do it with me/ this is what I did the one time I saw her kick. I’m concerned if she gets away with stuff with the groom that she could develop bad habits.

[Denali6298]

@the sandiest shoes

No, I definitely don’t give that impression - obviously not ok with abuse of my horse but I trust my trainer and her discretion for reasonable discipline of a 1,000 pound animal. She kicked out a flies once with me and I got after her swiftly/firmly enough that she never did it with me again. My trainer also disciplined her when she saw the fly kick-out and I don’t think she did it again with her.

Could be I just need to tell the groom in person how to quickly shut down the behavior and explain she doesn’t do it with me/ this is what I did the one time I saw her kick. I’m concerned if she gets away with stuff with the groom that she could develop bad habits.

Yes I would talk to the groom. They may not think it’s okay to get after them for that behavior. I’m not talking about overreacting but correcting. Some people think a correction is overreaction. I’ll never forget one barn I was at, my mare got really pushy because she’s cute, and everyone loves her. She kicked out and made contact, I corrected her. A girl who adored her saw it and looked at me wide eyed. I said yes she’s adorable. She can also be an ass.

[the_sandiest_shoes]

@Denali6298

Yes I would talk to the groom. They may not think it’s okay to get after them for that behavior. I’m not talking about overreacting but correcting. Some people think a correction is overreaction. I’ll never forget one barn I was at, my mare got really pushy because she’s cute, and everyone loves her. She kicked out and made contact, I corrected her. A girl who adored her saw it and looked at me wide eyed. I said yes she’s adorable. She can also be an ass.

That sounds plausible - my horse is generally popular/cute and folks like to dote on her, so the groom might not be thinking of her the way she would a big “aggressive” horse. I’ll talk her to her!

[Denali6298]

@the sandiest shoes

That sounds plausible - my horse is generally popular/cute and folks like to dote on her, so the groom might not be thinking of her the way she would a big “aggressive” horse. I’ll talk her to her!

That and she may not realize you are OK with correction. I started helping out at my barn for 5 hours a week. That was one thing I asked the manager. Are owners okay with correction? I will not let a horse push me around so if someone’s ill behaved beast couldn’t be corrected I wouldn’t help out.

[Scribbler]

yes, go observe and then give suggestions.

When you say groom, is this an experienced adult or a 13 year old child who is working off the cost of lessons?

[the_sandiest_shoes]

@Scribbler

yes, go observe and then give suggestions.

When you say groom, is this an experienced adult or a 13 year old child who is working off the cost of lessons?

She’s an adult who has prior experience with horses but I get the sense that’s she’s not super-experienced. She’s also apparently had issues putting my horse’s bridle on (which, again, has never been an issue for me). Maybe I’ll have a little show and tell with her on how I get the horse ready and what I would do if she were to misbehave.

[Denali6298]

@the sandiest shoes

She’s an adult who has prior experience with horses but I get the sense that’s she’s not super-experienced. She’s also apparently had issues putting my horse’s bridle on (which, again, has never been an issue for me). Maybe I’ll have a little show and tell with her on how I get the horse ready and what I would do if she were to misbehave.

Age has nothing to do with it. She may have had run ins with woo woo owners who think poopsie can do no wrong. I’m almost 40 and have worked in the industry for a grip before finding my ultimate career. I STILL asked the barn manager how owners were about me correcting their beasties.

[Scribbler]

Ok you have an adult beginner as a groom and a coach that isn’t adequately mentoring or training the groom. It is what it is, so I would suggest you book up an hour or so one day to just do a run through of how to handle your mare with the groom. Just be upbeat and practical like you were taking on a leaser or something. Have groom handwalk halt backup etc. Watch her on cross ties. Have groom watch you with horse. Hopefully your trainer can train horses better than she trains her staff

[the_sandiest_shoes]

Ha yes to be clear, the trainer is an excellent rider/coach and training the groom as well (who is new to the job and still learning I think). I think maybe trainer doesn’t realize that the mare is only being this way with the groom and not me - I’ll reiterate that.

[XXS]

1. I’d watch this behaviour myself.
2. Sometimes it is worth to trust a horse and its sense of whom to like and whom not. Make sure it is really about being naughty and not a reaction on handling.

[cheektwocheek]

My 2 cents…My 5 yr old WB, aka (my teenage boy) will slightly assess everyone at this point. He’s looking to see what antics are acceptable.

They absolutely need consistent handling from their caregivers, especially at this age. Same response needs to be given to any questionable behavior. If everyone is on the same page, you’ll definitely get fewer phone calls.

[the_sandiest_shoes]

omg ugh

Things seemed like they were going ok. I haven’t had a chance yet to be there and watch the handler get my horse ready. Then, today, I get a text from the trainer that my horse kicked the groom in her calf. Apparently “unprovoked” and happened just as my trainer was switching horses with the groom and the groom walked behind my mare.

W.T.F. I’m a little beside myself. This (a BAD escalation of apparent bad behavior) is exactly what I didn’t want to happen. I’ve been handling her myself for the past while and haven’t seen anything even close to this. The worst I’ve seen her do is paw a bit while I’m grooming her, and sometimes pin her ears if I groom her in her stall while she’s eating her first hay in the morning, which I discourage but the level of irritability in this regard has always seemed like several big steps below kicking aggressively - I’ve never even seen her threaten to kick. The one time I saw her kick at what appeared to be flies, I was nowhere near her back legs, I got after her right away, and haven’t seen her kick since (that was months ago after I first got her). I walk behind her/ handle her hind end, etc. regularly and haven’t ever seen anything like this. Ugh ugh ugh ugh. The farrier and her horse masseuse also tell me what an angel she is.

So for now I’m doing all the handling myself. No more training rides. So frustrating. I obviously want to correct her behavior, but don’t know how to correct what I don’t see. I also have never seen her doing anything like squishing me against a wall - it sounds paranoid but I’m almost thinking that for some reason, she really doesn’t like the groom? I’m getting a vet out this weekend to rule out any pain related causes, whether ulcers or something. Then maybe buy her kicking chains? Ugh I’m so frustrated.

[LSMarnell]

What did they do when she kicked? If they stood around and did absolutely nothing and lost the “teachable moment” I would be out of there in a hot minute. These people don’t know how to handle/train horses. You need someone who is willing to actually discipline her. Of course you can’t be there every second to do it yourself. (And it sounds like she is relatively well behaved for you anyway)

[mmeqcenter]

Some horses need particular handling.
I have a sassy, very particular mare. She kicks, bites, and has even lunged at small children with her teeth bared. I’ve had my mare at home for almost three years, and she’s been just wonderful since she’s been under solely my care and supervision. In some boarding barns, she was a borderline nightmare due to lack of turnout and improper handling. One barn had their non-horse-experienced son doing the barn chores for a time, and during that time there was a significant increase in her “bad behavior” thanks to ridiculously poor decisions by the son. She knew and knows what her expected manners are, but learned with that person she could get away with crap.
Clearly, your horse knows it can get away with crap with this particular groom. Groom needs to be taught how to handle the horse, or should not be the one handling the horse. Honestly, if they’ve been having problems with your horse kicking at the groom, why on earth would the groom walk behind her close enough to get kicked? SMH.

But yes, ulcers could be making her extra cranky, and I would treat with Ranitidine for a few weeks.

[RainWeasley]

My absolute angel of a gelding is the most polite horse I have ever had, is never pushy about hay or feed or anything, will wait calmly for people to walk into his stall, dump his feed, then walk away before he will even approach it. I had a call from a friend that was boarding at the same barn as me once, she said the girl that had been feeding the horses had called her really pissed off, claiming that my horse had tried to double barrel her while she was dumping feed and saying that I needed to come out and “work his ass”. Girl never said a word to me about it, though I did go out to see if he seemed off or antsy or anything and to see what he would do if I gave him some feed (absolutely nothing, though I DID notice he was a bit head shy suddenly and wary of the pitchfork when i picked his stall out so I’m thinking she must have done something to him). Same girl has also claimed that another person’s horse had run her over and injured her to get out of his stall (I’ve never seen this horse do anything like that even in his most spastic moments and I have known him since he was a yearling), among other things. It’s ENTIRELY possible it is just this groom. And I might ask around quietly to see if the groom has had problems with anyone else’s horses.

And my gelding? I’ve never had anyone else say he has done a thing. Most people rave about how well mannered he is for a four year old. So if he DID try to kick at her…I think she must have done something to warrant it. Or she totally misread what he was doing, i.e. he kicked a leg out at a fly and she flipped out thinking it was a kick at her.

[anon6003733]

First of all what a drag to be dealing with this. And I agree with mmeqcenter that it’s critical to investigate and see if there are some care and management issues at this barn that are exacerbating your mare’s behavior. Other than that I also see some red flags with her handling.

For slow to mature breeds 5 is a funny age. Now that I’ve raised kids I roughly compare them to 15 year olds - big, strong, smart and hilarious along with a brain that’s not completely developed yet. They’re often quite chuffed with themselves, make attempts to challenge authority and look for ways to not always toe the line. It’s a normal, natural phase to be worked through, just like with teenagers.

At this stage she is still very much in training and learning how to be a good citizen. There is no way inexperienced or timid handlers should be working with your horse in any capacity right now, or maybe ever, depending on her personality. I fault your trainer for that. The old saying that a horse is either being trained or untrained is particularly true in horses of this age. She shouldn’t be provided with any opportunities for those ‘aha’ moments, such as only needing to behave with some people while with others she can (figuratively or literally) push them around.

For example the lifting of the hind feet (uninvited and with questionable intent) is a big no-no when any human is in range and a good experienced trainer can teach her that (without flying off the handle) by being aware of the very early signs that she’s even thinking about it. Spraying down her legs and belly before working with her also helps to set her up for success.

So for me the good news is that it’s all fixable if you take action now. Start by managing who is and isn’t to be around your horse and then honestly I’d launch into weekly sessions with an excellent trainer specializing in ground manners that you both can learn from. I’d go this route whether or not I thought she had any mal-intent in her actions. It’s win/win.

I think I saw your video with your horse in the dressage forum. You’re lovely together, such a beautiful mare! Best of luck and I’m sure it will all work out with a good plan :).