Horse bites and charges

[shiloh]

Any horse that bites you in THE FACE is very very dangerous. That’s really overstepping the bounds. I mean, you could understand arms or legs or torso, but your face? First thing have a vet give this animal a once over. Then, you must really think about whether it is worth it to keep an animal on your property that really, if you think about, has the potential to escalate and possibly kill someone. In training, I don’t think this is the situation where violence can be met by more violence so I would be wary of anyone who says they can “fix this.” And say you found someone with a “way” that could either eradicate or minimize the behavior. She would still be a horse that you could never, ever take your eyes off. That doesn’t sound like fun.

If it was me - and yes, I would struggle, too - I would euthanize. Something is clearly up and she sounds like she is miserable. I wish you good luck and echo others sentiments that you go get another been there done that horse that everyone can have fun with.

[PeteyPie]

I am not as experienced as many who post here on COTH, but I think my opinion has some merit since I have four Thoroughbred mares, three of which are Off Track Thoroughbreds (OTTBs).

The first thing I would look for in this horse is PAIN. A good vet can really help with this, but some horses can have problems which are really difficult to diagnose. Have you ever hurt your back? It’s awful, and not all back ailments in humans show up definitively on MRIs or Xrays. Imagine how awful for a horse to have someone sitting on its back if it has back pain, neck pain or pelvic pain. Tooth pain, damage to a facial nerve, or even broken bones in the face or jaw can cause serious problems and are sometimes hard to find.

There is a long list of known problems which cause such pain, like the aforementioned kissing spines. Some ailments, like brain tumors, are often only found during a necropsy. Pelvic fractures are not uncommon in OTTBs. Mares can have not only hormonal problems which can cause increased aggression, but also pain from ovarian or uterine cysts. Many here have written about problems with their horse’s behavior caused by ulcers. I haven’t even touched on diseases like Lyme, and the list is long for all of the things which can go wrong with the legs and feet.

Someone wrote on this forum about a horse they had which went crazy when confined to a stall and once given 24/7 turnout became a new (sweet) creature. So there are mental and social issues which can affect a horse.

The most disturbing thing, and what I see as the bigger problem is that this mare has learned to handle her problems, whether they are pain-related or behavioral, with serious aggression towards you and your family. Personally, I would always worry that even if the physical problem were fixed and her behavior improved, she would still have that capacity to act out aggressively.

If she were my horse, I would have her examined thoroughly by a vet, because I would want to know what the problem was, and if I weren’t convinced that she could be fixed, both health-wise and behavior-wise, I would have her euthanized. What I would NOT do is send her to a trainer who would work her hard when she may have pain issues, and I would not pass her off to another person. Unless she is incredibly lucky, she will go downhill with each owner and likely end up on a meat truck to Mexico.

I’m so sorry you are having this issue with your first horse.

[kathy_s]

@Race Horse

The police called back and said they do not take mares. He gave me some suggestions and a trainer that they use. I am going to give him a call and see what he can do.
We are new to horses and did not have a vet do a pre purchase. Learning the hard way i guess. We are looking forward to being good horse people.

Kudos for asking for advice. It speaks to your willingness to accept your shortcomings, and your desire to educate yourself about horses. You will find there are some really good trainers and horse people here. Ignore the snark and you’ll be fine.

[luvmyhackney]

Call a good vet and have a once over ASAP. Always rule out pain first. Then call a trainer that can teach you proper ground work and how to safely handle the horse.

Personally I would start on ulcer meds today

[stanza]

You have received a lot of good advice, so I will not add any. But, I do want to give you encouragement, and say that you are doing the right thing by seeking advice. Even people who have been in the horse business a long time, have new things to learn. If horses do anything for you, they will certainly humble you. And may I say, welcome to horses. I know you will get the help you need, and you will come to have a great relationship with these beautiful animals.

[Race_Horse]

Thank you all for the advise. I am going to call and have her evaluated. Learning a lot pretty quick.

[IronwoodFarm]

OP, regardless of what happens with this horse, do not be hard on yourself. My non-horse parents bought a string of less than stellar ponies and horses for their horse crazy daughters. So I have been there. As others have said, this horse deserves an evaluation by a vet to determine if she is fixable or not. If she is fixable, she still may not be the right horse for you. I also agree with Clanter and Guilherme that euthanasia has to be an option. What you should not lose is your interest in having horses. Yes there is a learning curve in horse ownership, but it is a much easier curve if you get a more suitable horse. Don’t give up on horses if this one does not work out.

[Sparrowette]

@Race Horse

Thank you all for the advise. I am going to call and have her evaluated. Learning a lot pretty quick.

I hope you will keep us posted on how things work out. I know I am interested, and I think others are as well.

Don’t feel bad. See that beautiful face to the left there? I bought her without a pre-purchase exam from a vet, and wound up with $,$$$. bills for fetlock surgery. She had a bone chip in a fetlock that needed to be removed, so don’t worry. You’re not alone.

It doesn’t hurt her any more, I’m pleased to say.

You just have different challenges. Whatever you find out, and whatever you decide, we’re with you.

[sdlbredfan]

I am echoing what Sparrowette said. You deserve major kudos for realizing you were dealing with an unusual situation, and for reaching out for help and advice. I hope this will turn out to be a fixable problem. Good luck, and keep us posted!

If you want any volunteer (as in free) help with the second horse,(the one that is not actively trying to kill people for whatever reason), PM me. I am close to the town you mentioned, and would be happy to help you and your family with general ‘horsemanship 101’ questions you may have. Some of those things are easier to share in person than by typing on the internet.

Are you, or any of the other family members, already taking lessons with a riding instructor anywhere? If not, that can be a great way to learn. So many of us who are posting helpful advice learned the time-honored way of being mentored by others. I like to, and try to, find ways to be a mentor to others, as time allows.

[Irish_Ei_s]

Get the Vet now.
And the farrier next.

[RPM]

Originally posted by Race Horse:

We just purchased a 9 year old thourobred mare. The lady we bought her from said she came from a race track but never raced. She had her for 4 years and trained her for dressage and trail rides. Horse has not been ridden on about 1 year. When we got the mare home she was fine for about a month and then she charged me twice

How was she for that month? What were you and your family doing with her (as far as handling her/working with her)? Did any one thing in particular happen that you knew of that might have triggered the change?

Kudos to you for getting her evaluated. Please let us know what you learn. We are here for y’all. Welcome to COTH! I would definitely take those local COTH people up on their offers to help.

[carobeth2003]

 I just got my first horse, and we are woking with a natural horsemanship trainer to get his ground manners back and brush up on his under saddle skills. He is a nine year old gelding that was owned by a little girl. Apparently, he did a small buck with her on his back once, and she was scared of him since. He had been sitting in the pasture for about a year and a half with very minimal work, but the progress he has shown is amazing. In the two months that I have been working with this trainer, he is a completely different horse.
 Although your issue is obviously far more severe, I would take about the same course of action. I believe that no matter how experienced you are, this is a sport where a second opinion NEVER hurts. I always like to rule out the risk of a physical injury before I reprimand the horse for "misbehaving", when in reality, the horse was only trying to tell me he was in pain. I'm sure that an experienced veterinarian will be more than happy to help you with your predicament to rule out anything physical.
 Now, if it is something physical, I'm sure your vet will help you decide what course of action to take from there. If its not physical, enlist the help of a trainer. As I said before, I always tend to lean towards the natural horsemanship trainers rather than those that rely on an artificial aid to do the work for them. Don't be afraid to meet with trainers and get to know them a bit. The worst thing you can do right now, if its not a physical injury, is get a so called "trainer" and have them blow up your horse even more! Nobody ever wins in those types of situations. I agree with Abbie.S above. If you aren't willing to put everything into this horse, you need to find a new home of her, or euthanize her. It may seem mean, but if you aren't willing to put in the work, it is the most fair thing to do for the horse.
 I hope this super long, novel of a comment helps! :lol:

[WB_Mom]

Before going much further with her, get the vet out and discuss everything that has happened so far. All her history that you know. Be sure the vet knows you are new to horses and be truthful with your budget. You can drop thousands of dollars in an instant. The vet should do some diagnostics and go from there. They should also give you some different options. Some of those options may be big $ to try and figure out exactly what is going on. If one of the options is euthanasia, I would take that as a red flag. From your description, this horse’s quality of life at this point is not good, for whatever reason and it is absolutely dangerous. Not only to you, new to horses but to those who have extensive experience with them. Unfortunately, you are between a rock and hard place. Know that if after really discussing your options with the vet you do decide on euthanasia, that although difficult, it is the right decision. Everyone has limits on what they can do, and sometimes it is really the best to allow the pain and suffering to stop. Again, be truthful with the vet and yourself about this. When you do, you will make the best choice. Good for you for coming here and asking for help!

[Bartleby]

So I hope I’m not overstepping but…I hate if OPs don’t come back and update. I gave Race Horse the contacts for a few people in his area. One in particular is a very honest “cowboy” who my Dressage trainer and other locals use to start their young warmbloods. He’s also highly recommended in the local western circles. Lots of experience and he’s very willing, IME, to help the owner develop their own skills as well as walking them through the very basics on horsemanship 101. I strongly believe that he will steer them straight in what is best for them…and the horse. Anyway, I did hear that the OP’s horse is now at this trainer’s place. Obviously I won’t be privy to any further details, but they have enlisted knowledgeable and honest help. Hoping we get more details from OP, especially on whatever resolution is achieved.

[HungarianHippo]

Hety, that’s awesome update. I admit to a groan when reading the first post, that it was going to be a train wreck.
Kudos to the OP. We’ve all been, or know a good person who’s been, “over-horsed” at some point in their riding career. Help is out there. That said, I would consider this training as preparing your current horse for a different home. It doesn’t sound to me like she’s the right horse for a family that doesn’t have a lot of experience. Training is not a permanent thing, where you install some behavior and that’s that. Training is a continual process, so your family will continue to train her with every interaction. Since you’re beginners, her training will regress unless you keep working with a pro.

Best advice out there, when it comes to being happy with the horse you buy, is to buy a horse that is already successfully and currently doing what you want it to do. You want a family-friendly horse that beginners can ride, so you need to only look at horses who are already doing that. No more horses that “haven’t been ridden in a while”, or horses “with potential”. Don’t even consider them. And every single Craigslist ad for a “project horse” will say “He just deserves more time than I can give him.” Run away from those ads-- I guarantee you the horse needs a TRAINER, not just “time”. As you may already know, an experienced, safe horse costs more money than a “project horse” who needs a bunch of work before it’s reliable. That’s just the way it goes. Older horses may not be flashy, but your family would learn a lot from an experienced horse, and at the same time, ensure a low-pressure, light-duty, loving home that he deserves. Those would be some great lessons for your children.

The Pony Club is an international organization that has a long history of teaching good horsemanship. Every chapter is different, of course, but the parent organization has high standards. Here is one of the Missouri chapters, I don’t know if it’s close to you or not?
https://midwest.ponyclub.org/pages/12.aspx
You might contact them to ask about any older horses in the pony club community that may be ready for sale to a “partial retirement” home.

Another idea for horse shopping would be to see if any therapeutic riding (TR) stables are looking for retirement homes for their horses. Those horses are often pretty bomb-proof, as they’ve been trained to work around lots of unusual distractions. Sometimes TR horses need to retire even though they’re sound, because it’s a stressful job for them. Here’s a directory of Missour TR programs:
https://www.ohorse.com/stables/therapeutic-riding/local/north-america/united-states/missouri/

[sdlbredfan]

@Bartleby

So I hope I’m not overstepping but…I hate if OPs don’t come back and update. I gave Race Horse the contacts for a few people in his area. One in particular is a very honest “cowboy” who my Dressage trainer and other locals use to start their young warmbloods. He’s also highly recommended in the local western circles. Lots of experience and he’s very willing, IME, to help the owner develop their own skills as well as walking them through the very basics on horsemanship 101. I strongly believe that he will steer them straight in what is best for them…and the horse. Anyway, I did hear that the OP’s horse is now at this trainer’s place. Obviously I won’t be privy to any further details, but they have enlisted knowledgeable and honest help. Hoping we get more details from OP, especially on whatever resolution is achieved.

That is awesome, and now I am wondering if I know who the people are, that you recommended, because I am sure I would want to know/know of them too. I really hope the OP (original poster) comes back with some kind of update.

[Race_Horse]

Thank you all for your help. Grace is currently at Shane Irvings place for a 2 week evaluation. She arrived there last Thursday. I checked on her last Saturday and he thinks there is hope for her. He will let me know next wk. She was responding well to his training while we were there. Grace possibly became to comfortable with us and thought she was the lead horse. Our other horse Gypsy is doing well My wife and daughter are working with her.
Sorry it has taken a while to update. Last week was a little stressful. Thank you all for your support. Will let you know how she is doing after the evaluation.

[sdlbredfan]

I am glad to read this update. Would you please tell me a little about Gypsy? What color, what age, etc. I knew a horse by that name, and hoped she was still in the area, and OK. It would be cool if that turned out to be her. Feel free to message me if you would rather not post it in this topic.Or just post a link to a picture of Gypsy please, because I would recognize her if I saw a picture.

I do hope that, if you did not already have a Veterinarian thoroughly examine the problematical mare, that you have asked Shane to have that done while she is there. It really is important! (Horsemanship 101 rule number 1 is that one never, ever assumes a horse has a behavioral problem, without first ruling out physical problems that can cause it.)

[Rackonteur]

Race Horse, thank you so much for updating and telling us how Grace is doing. Great that she is doing so well! I love her name, and Gypsy’s too. And I second what sdlbredfan and others said about having a vet check her out.

I’m sorry last week was stressful for you all; hope things are better now!

[Sparrowette]

@Race Horse

Thank you all for your help. Grace is currently at Shane Irvings place for a 2 week evaluation. She arrived there last Thursday. I checked on her last Saturday and he thinks there is hope for her. He will let me know next wk. She was responding well to his training while we were there. Grace possibly became to comfortable with us and thought she was the lead horse. Our other horse Gypsy is doing well My wife and daughter are working with her.
Sorry it has taken a while to update. Last week was a little stressful. Thank you all for your support. Will let you know how she is doing after the evaluation.

Race Horse, thank you for this. I hope she contineues to progress. You might talk over how you were handling her with S.I., and learn what might have been happening in her head. And I will third the vet check.