Horse BTV??!!! Help!!

[Abby0500]

I currently ride a 10 year old stock breed paint. He is a bit shy of 17.2 and is very deep bodied for his size. A lot of riders have are afraid to ride him because he will tear up about a foot off the ground if he doesn’t want to go in a certain direction or if there is something on the ground. He still tries it every so often. I started riding him last summer after a western rider rode him for months to stop his rearing. The western riding can have very harsh hands. The rearing problem started when he was first ridden when he was 2-3. The old rider used draw reins on him and pulled his nose nearly to his knees. She is known doing that to many horses. During some rides, he goes behind the vertical and tucks his nose while also bringing his poll downward. He is already really forward and tries to canter when ever I’m on him. He is really forward but very hard on the forehand. If I ask him to lift his shoulders he curls his nose under, sometime with connection sometime without, and then he starts running. I can’t slow him down or ask for anything collected or atleast balanced without him going behind the vertical.
Another problem he has is he can’t stand still. He can only stand for 1-2 seconds bridge dancing around in place. I am supposed to show him next year but I don’t know what to do to stop him from going btv!!

Ps. He tends to go btv more when he is tired. Is there anything I can do to get him stronger, without having him behind the bit and running? If I don’t have contact on the reins and runs and doesn’t listen, If I do he is BTV. If I ask for him to move more uphill he runs and doesn’t sit back on his hind end. And if I try and get him balanced he goes btv.

[Foxtail]

I used to train a horse with a similar story and the answer was to decompress his mind and strengthen him with groundwork. I switched his bit to a very mild snaffle, rode him on a loose rein in the arena and let him put his head where he was comfortable. If he got too quick or started jigging I’d guide him into a volte so he’d have to slow down and relax. When he learned he could relax and walk on a loose rein I repeated the process for the trot. I also took him on trails frequently and did hill work. I incentivized learning to halt with clicker training.

Once he was mentally relaxed I started working on groundwork. I used a lot of techniques from the French tradition. Without knowing your horse, the best I can recommend is look up Philippe Karl and Jean Froissard and learn how to apply those techniques to your horse’s situation.

Here’s the rub though: This is a slow process. You will likely not be able to show your horse next year. It took me about eight months to get that horse from a nervous wreck to a reliable walk/trot with leg yield. I hadn’t gotten a canter on him when I had to stop training him. Trying to push a horse like that too fast can leave you worse off than when you started. However, the payoff is worth it. It’s a great feeling knowing you were able to turn around a horse like that.

[SendenHorse]

No freaking out needed, this is totally normal and it will go away with strength and good work.

Do you have the experience needed to ride him properly? it will take a lot of time and patience to re-train a horse with a history in draw reins.

[Abby0500]

[QUOTE=SendenHorse;8754547]
No freaking out needed, this is totally normal and it will go away with strength and good work.

Do you have the experience needed to ride him properly? it will take a lot of time and patience to re-train a horse with a history in draw reins.[/QUOTE]

I do have experience with horses ridden in draw reins. The reason I need help is because he is the 5th dressage I have started to work with. One of the other was ridden in side reins also, but he doesn’t rush and listens better. Only 1 of the other horses goes btv when it’s out of shape is also the one that was ridden in side reins. The reason I seemed frantic is because the problem seemed to be worse today, but I feel that is because yesterday was his first day back to work after a week and a half off. So he could be a bit sore.

[Scribbler]

Given that history (draw reins, side reins, harsh western riding, rearing, going btv, rushing) you are going to have to retrain him to think and respond to the bit in an entirely different way in order to have any lasting effect on his way of going. The use of side reins and draw reins can teach a horse to just roll behind the bit, in order to protect himself from contact. He thinks this is how you want him to go now, when he is ridden. He is doing what he has been taught.

Foxtail has some good suggestions.

I’d also add that you will need to ride him forward, and not be afraid of his speed, because if you are teaching him to reach for the bit willingly, you can’t be always clenching back out of fear he will bolt.

[Abby0500]

[QUOTE=Scribbler;8754819]
Given that history (draw reins, side reins, harsh western riding, rearing, going btv, rushing) you are going to have to retrain him to think and respond to the bit in an entirely different way in order to have any lasting effect on his way of going. The use of side reins and draw reins can teach a horse to just roll behind the bit, in order to protect himself from contact. He thinks this is how you want him to go now, when he is ridden. He is doing what he has been taught.

Foxtail has some good suggestions.

I’d also add that you will need to ride him forward, and not be afraid of his speed, because if you are teaching him to reach for the bit willingly, you can’t be always clenching back out of fear he will bolt.[/QUOTE]
Most of the time he doesn’t bolt, but he does canter. He will canter and then when we turn the corner that the gate is in he will throw his shoulder out and towards the gate sometimes I don’t react fast enough and when I do try to redirect him he will rear up a tiny but.
I plan to cut our arena in half (it can fit 3 full size arenas inside the whole thing) and then working from that side until he gets forward enough to break that habit of going behind the bit. I think a lot of the problem is I didn’t know what to start fixing first.

[SendenHorse]

[QUOTE=Abby0500;8754870]
Most of the time he doesn’t bolt, but he does canter. He will canter and then when we turn the corner that the gate is in he will throw his shoulder out and towards the gate sometimes I don’t react fast enough and when I do try to redirect him he will rear up a tiny but.
I plan to cut our arena in half (it can fit 3 full size arenas inside the whole thing) and then working from that side until he gets forward enough to break that habit of going behind the bit. I think a lot of the problem is I didn’t know what to start fixing first.[/QUOTE]

Hmmm…sounds like a big project! Has a trainer evaluated him?

you start first by getting basic ground manners, then steering. Then freely forward and only THEN do you think about BTV/not BTV.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/47569339787540977/

[Twigster]

You’ve gotten some great advice from Foxtail, Senden, Scribbler so far. I would like to reiterate that you cannot focus on the horse’s head right now. First you must get him moving forward, not rushing as he is now, but is relaxed and rhythmically forward off your aids. Work on prompt transitions,introduce leg yield and turn on the forehand. Encourage stretching and work at the walk and eventually all three gaits on the longest rein possible with a light contact. All of this work will help build a horse that can carry himself and is confident in your aids.

Once the relaxation is there, and he is more happily moving forward, and you as a rider can trust that the forward is not running away but nice working gaits, then I think the position of the head will follow no problem.

[csaper58]

Thess may help.

www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/shoulder-in_volte.php

www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/behind_the_vertical.php