Horse Diet Question..

[Scoutranger]

Hello, so this may be a lengthy post… I am in the process of trying to switch my horses to the most beneficial and natural diet possible. I consulted with a homeopathic lady who has prescribed my horses with a new diet. I want to make sure it sounds “ok”. Both horses were previously on Triple crown ration balancer (half a pound) and Triple Crown Low Starch (4 cups) and supplements like fastrack, salt, MSM, and flax seed. They also got beet pulp depending on their weight, workload, and weather… Both horses looked great but one coliced! Here is what the lady is recommending:

Whole Oats (anywhere from 1 cup- 2 cups)
Hi-Fibre Gold Dengee (1-3 quarts)
Powdered Rice Bran ( 1/2 cup - 1 cup)
Alfalfa Cubes (3-10 cubes soaked)
Seed Mixture of shelled sunflower seeds, flax seeds, millet seeds, split peas, rose hips, febugreek (1/8 a cup a day a 1:1 mixture of all)

*I would still give MSM, salt, and vitamin e to the hoses. This would also be in combination with 24/7 hay (timothy grass mix- ok quality) and NO pasture- it is very overgrazed.

Is this enough to meet their needs? I know the amounts are so varied but she said (it depends on each horse) I worry it wont be enough during the cold winters we have… On FeedXL it said that many of the mineral levels are not balanced (copper, seleium, etc.) However, when I put a pound of Triple Crown Balancer in- everything evens out. Should I add balancer too just to be safe?

What does everyone think? (The colic was a gas colic- possibly due to being dewormed the day before. However, he has coliced a year previous and gas colic as well. He is a very sensitive gelding.) The other horse can be a bit of a hard keeper in the winter… Nothing terrible…

[JB]

Why are you feeding only 1/2lb of TC 30, and roughly 1lb of the Low Starch? Why not a full pound of the 30?

Why do you feel the colic was related to the current diet? Horses colic while on every diet imaginable, including just grass or just hay. Countless horses never colic on a diet like you have.

The recommended diet is, I guarantee, not remotely balanced. What you have now is much better

Are you aware of how truly little 1/8c is? That comes down to a few seeds of each of the things in that seed mix.

[Scribbler]

I don’t see where homeopathy and horse nutrition overlap.

Your horse will do best on one of the following:

Very good hay plus a good ration balancer fed at the required level for that product (probably a pound or so).

Very good hay plus a good vitamin mineral supplement fed at the required level (one or more ounces) in a small mash of alfalfa cubes and/or beet pulp.

To either of these add an ounce of white salt, and optional a cup of flax.

If your horses are not keeping weight on, feed more hay. Also feed more hay in winter. The hind gut digestion process of hay keeps them warm

The biggest deficiency in most horses is minerals, which have long term results of poorer hair hoof and overall health quality. It is useful to test your hay for sugar, protein, and mineral levels.

If you want to understand horse nutrition get Juliet Getty’s Feed Your Horse Like a Horse.

[dungrulla]

This lady seems like she’s trying to take you for a ride. That doesn’t sound very balanced, and whole oats are pretty high in sugar. TC is an excellent food, why switch?

[Scribbler]

I’m guessing that funky seed mixture is probably that over priced unfortified “natural organic” feed we’ve criticized several times on here.

Fun fact: horses manufacture their own Vitamin C. You don’t need to feed them rose hips or citrus etc.

[Scoutranger]

@Scribbler

I’m guessing that funky seed mixture is probably that over priced unfortified “natural organic” feed we’ve criticized several times on here.

Fun fact: horses manufacture their own Vitamin C. You don’t need to feed them rose hips or citrus etc.

Thats good to know! It’s not crypto aero but it’s similar ingredients.

[Scoutranger]

@dungrulla

This lady seems like she’s trying to take you for a ride. That doesn’t sound very balanced, and whole oats are pretty high in sugar. TC is an excellent food, why switch?

Thanks for your honesty. I’m trying to switch to something with less additives/ soy and all that. Trying to see if that will help his gut and overall health. But I’m thinking about keeping the balancer… I can’t risk an unbalanced diet

[Scoutranger]

@Scribbler

I don’t see where homeopathy and horse nutrition overlap.

Your horse will do best on one of the following:

Very good hay plus a good ration balancer fed at the required level for that product (probably a pound or so).

Very good hay plus a good vitamin mineral supplement fed at the required level (one or more ounces) in a small mash of alfalfa cubes and/or beet pulp.

To either of these add an ounce of white salt, and optional a cup of flax.

If your horses are not keeping weight on, feed more hay. Also feed more hay in winter. The hind gut digestion process of hay keeps them warm

The biggest deficiency in most horses is minerals, which have long term results of poorer hair hoof and overall health quality. It is useful to test your hay for sugar, protein, and mineral levels.

If you want to understand horse nutrition get Juliet Getty’s Feed Your Horse Like a Horse.

Thank you get the book suggestion. I will definitely look into it. I’m not sure where they overlap either… but she has put “hundreds” of horses on this diet and they have done well. She’s a big name around my parts… I just want to do what is right and best for my horses.

[Scribbler]

Well, done well is relative.

Horses generally do well enough if they get enough hay.

You need to look at the diet before and the level of owner education or ignorance to really evaluate “done well.”

I would look for someone with qualifications in nutrition.

[dungrulla]

@Scoutranger

Thank you get the book suggestion. I will definitely look into it. I’m not sure where they overlap either… but she has put “hundreds” of horses on this diet and they have done well. She’s a big name around my parts… I just want to do what is right and best for my horses.

Any time someone claims they’ve put hundreds of horses on specific foods and ‘all of them did well’, they are lying to you. Horses are individual and have metabolisms that vary much more than other animals. There are a LOT of people that get taken by the pseuoscientific hogwash that is homeopathy, which is how people like this snake oil saleswoman get popular. Don’t be one of them. You’re looking for a problem where it doesn’t exist.

If you are truly, truly concerned, talk to a veterinary dietician or nutritionist, NOT some random lady hawking homeopathy, which demonstrably doesn’t work.

[JB]

@Scoutranger

Thanks for your honesty. I’m trying to switch to something with less additives/ soy and all that. Trying to see if that will help his gut and overall health. But I’m thinking about keeping the balancer… I can’t risk an unbalanced diet

If your goal is low/no soy, then that’s totally understandable as a relatively easy thing to try. I’d look at Uckele U-Balance Foundation (only soy product is the soy oil way down near the end of the ingredients, no meal, no hulls which are the usual culprits of soy intolerances), which is a nice pellet that is much more robust in its nutrients than most. If you want totally soy-free, their Spor Horse Grass I think is totally soy-free, or you can do Horsetech’s High Point Grass. That HPG is more liekly to have a palatability issue, IME, than the U-Balance Foundation.

California Trace (Plus) is another option.

Most others are going to require adding Tri-Amino or Nutramino to get the lysine and methionine up.

Then you can use alfalfa pellets to add the calories, which will just be a few pounds.

That is how I feed my easiest keeper, and I also add copper and zinc to help balance the high iron.

[Scribbler]

Especially do not feed homeopathic doses of minerals!

[Palm_Beach]

@Scoutranger

Thanks for your honesty. I’m trying to switch to something with less additives/ soy and all that. Trying to see if that will help his gut and overall health. But I’m thinking about keeping the balancer… I can’t risk an unbalanced diet

The first thing you need to do is get a hay analysis. Otherwise you have no idea whether or not your diet is balanced. What are the scientific, medical and health reasons to use something with “less additives/soy and all that?” If you are feeding free choice hay, the amount of soy in any hard feed is pretty small and there is no evidence to support claims that soy has an adverse effect on horses. Anecdotes are not evidence. What are wrong with additives? My feed has lots of additives, such as salt, magnesium, flax, rice bran, etc. I love them.

[Scribbler]

It’s true, if you read a feed label you will see the items that make up the body of the feed and have nutrition value in their own right such as grain, grain by products, alfalfa meal, beet pulp, soy hulls or meal, etc. Then you will see the things that translate to mineral and vitamin fortification.

There are soy products in some feeds because it’s the most efficient source of protein in the feed makers arsenal.

But as far as “additives and all that,” there is rarely anything in horse feed that isn’t doing a job. No artificial flavors, colors, preservatives.

You may prefer certain formulations for certain horses, or dismiss a whole product line as too high in sugar or low in minerals. Some feeds are high fat, some high protein. Etc. But making the choice requires some understanding of horse nutrition.

Btw as I understand it, any potential problems with phytoestrogens tend to be linked to soy meal and not soy hulls.

[walktrot]

“Additives” are the source of many vitamins and minerals. They often have unrecognizable, unpronounceable scientific names so it’s hard to figure out what they are. Some “additives” that people throw into people food aren’t additives for horses. They are stuff they eat naturally, which includes a wide variety of plants: grasses, grains. weeds, etc.

There is no way that homeopathic “expert” can design a diet for any horse without analyzing every ingredient for its nutritional value, and then figuring out how much of it needs to added in order to meet the horse’s need. There are so many varieties of grains these days from reputable national and regional companies that you can choose something that is suited to your horse. You should be able to compare them online. If a feed company doesn’t have the basic recipe and nutritional information posted I would avoid them because I wouldn’t have confidence that is consistently the same all year.

There are about 35 or so horses at our barn. Ten are stall boarded and get some grain. The rest, most of whom belong to the BO, live outside on timothy mix round bales. All of them are healthy, shiny, and in good weight. My 24 y.o. gelding has been on pasture board since I bought him in 2001. He needs more calories now to maintain his weight, so I have him on Blue Seal LS, which is high fat, high fiber and extruded. He also gets biotin and vitamin E. I don’t have to create a gloppy mess of oil and all kinds of supplements, a variety of grains, and soaked cubes. All I have to do is scoop grain into a bucket and he gets exactly what he needs every day.

[kiwichick]

I have just been through this, and swapped out my feeds too.
I, like you, was doing the ‘natural feeds are better’ and based the main calories around basic plain grains. I finally paid for feedxl and when I ran through what I was feeding, I discovered it was horribly unbalanced, and that included a vit supplement.

On the recommendation I have swapped back to a balanced feed and a different vit supplement and roughage and literally after 2 days my horses were so much better behaved and content.
What I didnt know, and never would have considered was that the vit supp I was using was totally unbalanced with my feed options, and despite trying to do the right thing, I wasnt managing to meet that goal, its completely changed my thinking, and is significantly cheaper and easier now

[JB]

@Palm Beach

there is no evidence to support claims that soy has an adverse effect on horses.

Just like any given horse can be allergic/sensitive to things like alfalfa, oats, corn, Timothy, other grasses or tree pollens, and more, it’s a fact that some horses can be the same way with soy. Yes, there is evidence. Evidence doesn’t have to be a full blown study.

Horses who are especially insulin resistant, for example, can definitely react quickly and visibly to soy in the diet - some with any soy, some with the amount in a RB but not in a v/m supplement, some with soy meal but not soy hulls.

It is probably a particular protein in soy, as opposed to soy as a whole, just like it’s a particular protein in wheat, for people, as opposed to gluten.

There’s a study out there showing a link between people with a milk allergy, or rather, an allergy to a particular protein in cow milk, and an allergy to a particular protein in soy.

If the goal is to work on doing an elimination diet to see if GI issues go away, then the top of my list of things to eliminate first would be alfalfa and soy.
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[Palm_Beach]

@JB

Just like any given horse can be allergic/sensitive to things like alfalfa, oats, corn, Timothy, other grasses or tree pollens, and more, it’s a fact that some horses can be the same way with soy. Yes, there is evidence. Evidence doesn’t have to be a full blown study.

​​​​​​

Not really. Very rarely is straight soy fed, so when “soy” is removed, so are lots of other things. People remove a ration balancer, which may have dozens of ingredients, but since they’ve jumped onto the soy bandwagon they blame soy, although dozens of other things have been removed as well. You can switch out timothy or alfalfa or remove oats if you feed them straight, and see if there is a difference, but not so much soy. People like to single out and blame something specific, but without testing, you don’t know. That’s why we have science.

[S1969]

@Scribbler

Well, done well is relative.

Horses generally do well enough if they get enough hay.

Agreed. I remember having this conversation with my vet when I got my first horse - having read so many articles and discussion about various feeds, etc. He said something like “It’s a horse. Feed good hay and you’re giving them 98% of what they need.” His recommendation for the extra 2% was Triple Crown Senior. Most horses would do well enough on this, although obviously some tweaking here and there depending on the horse and workload makes sense.

Nothing in the recommended diet is of huge concern for a normal horse that isn’t IR, and seems low on minerals…but seems contrived and more work than it’s worth. I agree that 1/8 of a cup of seeds is a ration for a bird, not a 1000+ animal. That can’t be doing anything useful at that amount, just costing money.

[JB]

@Palm Beach

Not really. Very rarely is straight soy fed, so when “soy” is removed, so are lots of other things. People remove a ration balancer, which may have dozens of ingredients, but since they’ve jumped onto the soy bandwagon they blame soy, although dozens of other things have been removed as well. You can switch out timothy or alfalfa or remove oats if you feed them straight, and see if there is a difference, but not so much soy. People like to single out and blame something specific, but without testing, you don’t know. That’s why we have science.

I’m interested in what else you think could be the problem, other than soy, for a horse who goes from TC30 (ration balancer with soy) to M10 (ration balancer without soy)?

We don’t always need studies to prove experiences.