Horse drops head/neck over jump

[Crown_Royal]

One of my horses always drops his head/neck down low over jumps (although he’s only jumping about 2’6"). I’m coming back to riding after having a baby and having some trouble sticking with it. He’s not spooking and looking at the jump, it’s just his style.

Anyone have horses that jump like this? Tips for sticking with it better? I didn’t use to have a problem with it, so I know it’s mostly a strength issue on my part. I’m trying to figure out how to make thing more comfortable for my horse and I while we get back in the swing of things. He’s green but pretty honest and doesn’t do anything dirty after he lands. Is there any kind of release that would help stabilize me better and make sure I don’t catch him in the mouth when he drops? We had a few flukes yesterday when he surprised me so I slipped the reins instead of pulling on him. Pre-baby I could do an auto release or various crest releases but I don’t think I have the upper body strength back to do that yet

[CHT]

Is he also jumping over his shoulders? Is he really over jumping?

It sounds like a jumping form issue that I would try to correct rather than adapt to.

I would try a canter pole on the landing side, or bounces.

[Crown_Royal]

I think yes and yes…he does over jump and I think he is jumping over his shoulder. Can you post/link a photo example of it? I’ll try to post a photo of him from my laptop in a little.

How else would you correct this? I have limited poles/standards. We have mostly just trotted single fences. Some oxers and grids, sometimes with placing poles 9’ before and after jumps when I boarded him and had access to more jumps.

[CHT]

I tried to find a picture but failed. I used to have a boarder whose horse has similar jumping issues (I think). We did wide, ramped oxers, raised poles put far enough past the jump that he had to reach for them a bit (with this horse that meant about 12’) , and jumps on a circle or arc so the horse couldn’t stiffen his neck and dive down.

Landscape poles work good for extra poles (they are flat on two sides so won’t roll as easily if they get hit).

Could also be a fitness thing (weak hind end), so working on shoulder in, lots of prompt transitions, or hill work may help.

[Highflyer]

This is what I would consider a horse jumping over its shoulder (I found this image through Google so I have no idea who this is): https://zenbabyhorse.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/img_9513.jpg

It’s a serious fault because it can cause a rotational fall.

OTOH, this is a horse that’s natural style was to jump with his head low (this one is one of mine):
https://scontent-lga1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/74942_4947265527125_2029429082_n.jpg?oh=4e27f02a3db92d30b753ea4fe4ff8b31&oe=569D3CE1

Hard to learn to ride, and finding the uphill gallop for xc was a struggle, but he was a great jumper.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=Highflyer;8325006]

OTOH, this is a horse that’s natural style was to jump with his head low (this one is one of mine):
https://scontent-lga1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/74942_4947265527125_2029429082_n.jpg?oh=4e27f02a3db92d30b753ea4fe4ff8b31&oe=569D3CE1

Hard to learn to ride, and finding the uphill gallop for xc was a struggle, but he was a great jumper.[/QUOTE]

So cute! If someone said their horse puts his head and neck down, I think of something like this shot…and think of it as a positive. This is usually accompanied by a rounder jump but it is harder to stay with. You’ve got to have a good core to stay back and you cannot rely a faulty neck-leaning crest release to help you because the neck goes down…

The horse with the natural tendency to wrap around the jump with their head and neck, and lifts their belly to form a truly round bascule is a good thing…

[CHT]

Jumping over the shoulder doesn’t always mean a hanging knee though, it just means they don’t reach forward with their elbows when they jump.

[RugBug]

Do you have a picture illustrating this? I can’t picture a horse jumping over it’s shoulder that isn’t also hanging (maybe not to the extent that horse picture is, but to some extent)

[Crown_Royal]

HighFlyer- love your horse! I think my guy is in between the example from Google and your horse.

These are the only jumping pictures I really have of him, his form kind of varies (I guess depending on our approach…maybe whether we trot or canter it?).

Like this one (bad angle), PICTURE, his knees are pointing down, he’s dropped his neck, but he’s overjumping this tiny log. We trotted this jump.

We also trotted this jump PICTURE and again, his knees are pointed down and I think this may be what you mean by jumping over the shoulder? He just jumps high enough over it that he doesn’t catch a leg.

But this was a canter jump with a placing pole 9’ before PICTURE and was an oxer (just not very wide). I don’t think he’s jumping over his shoulder here, right?

Another jump that he cantered up to, and also an oxer PICTURE. Doesn’t appear to be jumping over his shoulder and knees are not pointed down, but he’s not putting in much effort either. I’m terrible at evaluating bascule. Round jump, or not?

Looks like he’s worse when he trots into the jump and it’s a single. Better with slightly bigger (I know, they’re still small jumps!) oxers, too. What should I be doing to work on this?

[flashwhitelock]

[QUOTE=Crown Royal;8325134]
HighFlyer- love your horse! I think my guy is in between the example from Google and your horse.

These are the only jumping pictures I really have of him, his form kind of varies (I guess depending on our approach…maybe whether we trot or canter it?).

Like this one (bad angle), PICTURE, his knees are pointing down, he’s dropped his neck, but he’s overjumping this tiny log. We trotted this jump.

We also trotted this jump PICTURE and again, his knees are pointed down and I think this may be what you mean by jumping over the shoulder? He just jumps high enough over it that he doesn’t catch a leg.

But this was a canter jump with a placing pole 9’ before PICTURE and was an oxer (just not very wide). I don’t think he’s jumping over his shoulder here, right?

Another jump that he cantered up to, and also an oxer PICTURE. Doesn’t appear to be jumping over his shoulder and knees are not pointed down, but he’s not putting in much effort either. I’m terrible at evaluating bascule. Round jump, or not?

Looks like he’s worse when he trots into the jump and it’s a single. Better with slightly bigger (I know, they’re still small jumps!) oxers, too. What should I be doing to work on this?[/QUOTE]

Grids, grids and more grids. He needs to figure out where to put all of his body parts. Safer for you, safer for him and will teach him. try 41/2 4 1/2 rails to 9 foot space to crossss rail to 18foot to another cross rail to 23 feet oxer.

when he can do that comfortably, then you increase the height and then eventually go back to doing individual fences. this is set for trotting in and cantering between.

[Crown_Royal]

[QUOTE=flashwhitelock;8325159]
Grids, grids and more grids. He needs to figure out where to put all of his body parts. Safer for you, safer for him and will teach him. try 41/2 4 1/2 rails to 9 foot space to crossss rail to 18foot to another cross rail to 23 feet oxer.

when he can do that comfortably, then you increase the height and then eventually go back to doing individual fences. this is set for trotting in and cantering between.[/QUOTE]

I’ll see if I can find enough poles to do this. I think I only have 2 sets of standards to use.

[Ambitious_Kate]

[QUOTE=Crown Royal;8325134]
HighFlyer- love your horse! I think my guy is in between the example from Google and your horse.

These are the only jumping pictures I really have of him, his form kind of varies (I guess depending on our approach…maybe whether we trot or canter it?).

Like this one (bad angle), PICTURE, his knees are pointing down, he’s dropped his neck, but he’s overjumping this tiny log. We trotted this jump.

We also trotted this jump PICTURE and again, his knees are pointed down and I think this may be what you mean by jumping over the shoulder? He just jumps high enough over it that he doesn’t catch a leg.

But this was a canter jump with a placing pole 9’ before PICTURE and was an oxer (just not very wide). I don’t think he’s jumping over his shoulder here, right?

Another jump that he cantered up to, and also an oxer PICTURE. Doesn’t appear to be jumping over his shoulder and knees are not pointed down, but he’s not putting in much effort either. I’m terrible at evaluating bascule. Round jump, or not?

Looks like he’s worse when he trots into the jump and it’s a single. Better with slightly bigger (I know, they’re still small jumps!) oxers, too. What should I be doing to work on this?[/QUOTE]
Yah, in ALL those photos, he’s jumping over his shoulder. Look at his elbow, its pulled back. He isn’t reaching with his shoulder, and even when he raises his knees, minimally, by the way, he isn’t using his shoulder. I would re-school him using the techniques mentioned. This is dangerous and if this horse didn’t start improving, I wouldn’t be riding him. Just me.

[RugBug]

I don’t think he’s dangerous, but he’s not great. IMO, the head and neck are the least of your worries. He is jumping over his shoulder. The canter picture are worse to me because he’s throwing himself over with no power. The first canter jump he looks like he’s going to land with his head first because he’s so unbalanced. It looks like in the trot pictures he was maybe a little looky and therefore backed himself off a bit and tried a little harder. The bad news is that his trying harder still isn’t great. BUT, I don’t think it’s dangerous and by no means do you need to stop riding or jumping him.

I wouldn’t be jumping this horse right now without placing poles. 9’ front and back, trot over. This should help him push off from both back feet equally for more oomph…and will also help him know where to do it from. Use big X-rail oxers to help him lift his front and round (start with just x-rails and then move to oxers once he gets it.) bounces are also a good idea to help him get a bit snappier in front.

Truth be told though, it may just be something that is conformational for him. So improve it as much as you can (balance, and impulsion are your friends) and then just never overface him or push to the end of his ability and you should be fine.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Honestly…I wouldn’t freak out. Just looks like a green horse. Make VERY sure that YOU are not jumping ahead as that will make a horse jump over his shoulder like in the pictures. I suspect in the trot jumps you got a tad ahead on him.

I would do lots of trot jumps with placing poles and some gymnastic jumping. Also just lots of single jumps…especially oxers. As he gets stronger, I bet he will improve. Just really work on your own timing and strength staying with him. It isn’t that he is dropping his head and neck…but his balance has been thrown a bit on his forehand and he is jumping over his shoulder.

Work on your flat work to get his balance back off his forehand more and you will see a difference in the jumping.

[Crown_Royal]

Thanks for the exercise suggestions! I’ll try to get some of them set up. The placing poles before and after are definitely doable.

I disagree with him being dangerous though…and too dangerous to RIDE? Seriously? He is sound, he is sane, he is responsive, he never touches a jump EVER, and these are small jumps. I will work to improve what I can, and hopefully that’ll create a better and more comfortable jump, but I am not seeing how this is truly dangerous on a low level horse.

[CHT]

They mean dangerous as in if he gets into trouble at the jump, he is more likely to catch it at or above the knee, which could cause a flip/fall. This isn’t a comment on his temperament or potential, just that this is a serious jumping fault, that will affect his ability to get himself out of trouble.

Jumping over his shoulders also shortens how much of his body/back he can use at the jump, which further limits scope/safety.

I agree he is likely safe at low levels, but he needs help to improve his form if you want to jump bigger or solid jumps.

[IPEsq]

He just looks high with his body low with his legs. Doesn’t really get to the level of dangerous for me either. He may tighten up as the jumps get bigger. Maybe not. I think you would feel more balanced if your lower leg didn’t slip so much. Grids and bounces may help sharpen up his front end.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

He’s not dangerous or really…no way anyone could tell based on a couple of photos. He’s green and doesn’t jump like something that screams show hunter but not so bad that I would give up on jumping him.

Honestly, if the take good of form over fences that small…they often lack scope. But yes, bounces, tall cross rails all good exercises. Also just keep working in general on giving him more positive jumping experiences.

It is hard to tell how much he will improve though as he is not a natural (though many do not start out as naturals). To give you an idea of how their jump can change, this skinny OTTB is quite a good natural jumper. But very very green. First shot is one of his first jump schools and he is a bit over his shoulder. Within the same ride…he started to sort it out. The second picture was a week or two later. This horse takes a very good natural shape…now if I could just get his ulcers cured. He will be pretty fancy. But he does tend to over jump but now does it in a good shape. I just stopped with him until we get him healthier.

[Crown_Royal]

[QUOTE=CHT;8325321]
They mean dangerous as in if he gets into trouble at the jump, he is more likely to catch it at or above the knee, which could cause a flip/fall. This isn’t a comment on his temperament or potential, just that this is a serious jumping fault, that will affect his ability to get himself out of trouble.

Jumping over his shoulders also shortens how much of his body/back he can use at the jump, which further limits scope/safety.

I agree he is likely safe at low levels, but he needs help to improve his form if you want to jump bigger or solid jumps.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I do understand that (but thank you). I can see how this would apply for upper level jumping… but I am talking about the comment that he’d be dangerous to RIDE. I elaborated on him being sane because he’s NOT the type to forget what he’s doing going to a jump and make a mistake because he’s fighting me, or having a meltdown, or spooking at his shadow… and these are small jumps. I don’t feel unsafe for low level jumpers or cross country because he never ever touches a fence.

I will definitely try the tall cross rails with placing poles and bounces, too! My lower leg undeniably needs work!

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=Crown Royal;8325275]

I disagree with him being dangerous though…and too dangerous to RIDE? Seriously?

<snip>

but I am not seeing how this is truly dangerous on a low level horse.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think he’s dangerous for small stuff. Big, solid stuff, may not be the best idea, but I’ve seen plenty of horses that jump like he does do way more than what you’ve pictured. I wouldn’t feel comfortable over bigger stuff 3’6" with his form, but that’s just me…

FWIW: my trainer’s horse used to jump over her shoulder badly. For her, it was because she had too much power behind and needed to slow her hind end, speed up her front. As she matured and with focused training, she improved by leaps and bounds. It took a while and it wasn’t always by the book (gymnastics were set long at first so she had the room to get her front end up and allowed her to jump correctly instead of her trying to compress when she wasn’t strong enough to yet, etc) but the difference is remarkable