Wow.
Again, what you’re doing trying to force this horse to do what you want when you don’t have the skillset to do so is tremendously unfair to him. He’s been trying to tell you for 6 years and you aren’t selfless enough to hear him.
Yeah, another piece you didn’t want to hear or somehow isn’t relevant. But it’s the most relevant. It just doesn’t fit your “me me me” agenda.
I agree with the top 2 posters. Especially that horses want to please and suffer in silence.
If you look at a well trained dressage horse you see a very happy and confident horse, especially in their rider.
That is not what I ‘see’ in this thread.
Hi OP.
I too have a quirky horse we’ve had since she was a weanling. Like yours, she is predictably unpredictable. She’ll be utterly fine, and then she’ll have days where her own tail brushing her hocks surprises her and she startles badly. Or she’ll suddenly feel my heel or calf on her side, giving an aid, and she’ll startle badly - like she’d forgotten that I was there. She likewise would get markedly more amped and anxious as work got harder or involved something new. She has no physical limitations.
In short, I’ve come to believe that she was overfaced a couple years ago when she was started. Her colt starter was a real good guy and I don’t at all think there were abusive actions on his part. I think he didn’t realize she was overfaced. Kind of like the video of the guy you posted. In the video, which I know was some years ago, the trainer didn’t give your horse a true release before going on with the next ask. Your horse needed a moment to clear his head between requests. He needed lots of those moments. Over the years, your horse has learned to hold it together mentally - sort of. When he gets overfaced, he can’t hold it together - he doesn’t have the tools and he’s got to express himself.
You wanted some novel advice. Here’s what I did; I don’t know if it will be novel to your or not. I got off my mare. I set aside any of my own ideas of what I wanted to accomplish. Nearly every day for the last five weeks, I’ve saddled her and I lead her about three miles on a path my husband mowed in our pasture. Around and around this big rectangular pasture. I don’t ask anything of her except to walk with me. She licks and chews a great deal. She now walks along with swing and her head low like a good cowpony. She still spooks at her own tail on occasion but she’s able to come back to herself within an instant. Overall, she’s just calmer, more content. She has returned to being the sweet, sweet girl she really is. I may get on her today, and if I do, it will just be for a short walk.
She’s taught me that I need to slow way, way down. That’s what she needs from me; I thought I was doing all the right things but I was wrong. I thought I was going slow, but it wasn’t near slowly enough. Same with your trainer in that video. I think your horse needs you to slow way down. Of course your horse is unique. I believe you. And your unique horse is saying in his own way that he can’t mentally tolerate this stuff. You’ve got to believe him and meet him where he is.
If he were my gelding, I’d saddle and lead him for a couple weeks. I’d only introduce one change per ride, so after a couple weeks of leading, I’d get on and we’d walk a week, then walk/trot the next week and so on, so that his confidence and faith in you builds and he’s only asked to do what he deeply understands and knows. Yeah, it’d be boring for you and you may feel like you’re not progressing toward the goals you’ve set. But it’s not about you, is it?
Best of luck.
This is a wonderful post!
It’s really easy to get into the OP’s mindset of “But he should know this already!” I do it too. Heck, I have known my gelding since he was 1 day old and have owned him since he was a yearling. I’ve done every single bit of his training. No one else has ever sat on the horse in his entire life (he’s 12 years old). So, when he starts acting like a dinkus, especially when he’s normally NOT a dinkus, I do find myself blaming HIM for his behavior. I say things like “What’s the matter with you today? C’mon! You’ve seen XYZ a million times. Stop acting stupid.”
But it’s not his fault. He’s a HORSE. Horses are gonna Horse, LOL.
Yesterday my horse, who is so laid back under saddle that I have a thread about trying to sensitize him to the whip, was an absolute snorting, spooking mess in the barn both before and after our ride. He was fine during, but a nervous wreck before and after. He doesn’t live in the barn and only come in for grooming/tacking, and it’s not unusual for him to be a bit nervous in there, but yesterday he was completely torn out of his frame.
Today it’s 20 degrees cooler and the wind is blowing like crazy…I go out expecting more of the same and he comes in quiet as a mouse and stands like a gentleman. Calm, soft eyes, totally relaxed. I free longed him in the roundpen and piddled with some TRT stuff I’ve been learning about. I then took him sightseeing around the farm to the places he normally doesn’t get to go, but often stares at with bugged-out eyeballs from a distance. The farm has lots of “stuff” including chicken/duck pen, gardens and flower beds, a swimming pool, and lots of little buildings (one with an awning that was flapping in the wind today). All good. He snorted once when we were approaching a scary place and I immediately started doing some TRT. Not sure I do it exactly right, I need to watch more videos, but I basically did the thing where I don’t let him close the distance between us by creating energy in the space I don’t want him to be in (basically slinging the lead rope around until he backs and stands away from me.) Maybe it was a fluke, but after doing this a little, I could almost see him thinking “WTH?” But he was thinking! And I swear he just chilled out, licked his lips, dropped his head and was fine.
No idea if it was just a fluke and a lucky day for me, but I want to believe there’s something to that ground work. I also believe the fact that I didn’t have any expectation or agenda that day except seeing if I could help him overcome his fear and uncertainty from yesterday really set the tone for today.
But I have definitely fallen into the trap of getting frustrated with him because I think he “knows better” and shouldn’t be behaving a certain way. But that’s just not how horses operate. At least, not until we give them the information they need to think through a situation and learn that they don’t have to be tense and scared.
“suffers in silence”? Oh brother.
Thank you for taking the time to write this.
This horse was started not by the guy in the video, but by a professional dressage and WB breeder as a 3 year old. She has bred and started WBs, (including starting his half brother imported with him, who went on to win the 70 stallion test. She’s good) for 35 years. He was difficult with her and bucked her off because of his hypervigilance. She couldn’t remember the last time she was bucked off. She took her time with him, but he would get freaked out when she changed paddocks of horses (not him) to stop over-the-fence bickering. She had to change back the paddocks while her farrier held his trembling self before we rode that day. Please, please do not throw out simplistic suggestions, people! Geez!
He was restarted with me (after months off between 3 and 4 years old) with a great young horse and GP dressage rider here in NC, and when she got pregnant, she recommended an advanced level eventer who was bucked off and broke her collar bone. That is when he went to the guy in the video I posted. Please, read all of the posts to get the story straight! He’s never had a bad or unkind experience as far as anyone knows.
Please, he has been ponied, we’ve done QH shows, group trail rides, multiple sessions of working cows, groundwork clinics, obstacle course clinics (we have an obstacle course at the barn), working equitation clinics and so much more than you seem willing to accept. Please stop telling me I’m forcing him into a certain role.
Can people accept that the video was taken well after he was professionally started ridden and many many years ago? This horse is well beyond hand walking for 5 weeks. But thanks.
Oh please, @RhythmNCruise, he has been ridden by trainers who also experience his issues. I don’t rely on internet training techniques, I rely on quality trainers in person.
This thread seems to have gotten long enough that people haven’t read the whole thing. That’s increasingly frustrating.
Thanks!
ok, ok, I’ll bite…
JLue, I used to own and show a horse very similar to yours, except he was an OTTB that also spent 4-5 years as a pony express horse (rodeo race) too! He could come to a dead stop from a medium canter in less than 1 stride; he could “swap ends” and be at the other end of the arena in a microsecond. I can’t tell you how many times I would find myself standing on the ground in front of him when I could’ve sworn we were cantering a 10 or 15m circle. I tore a hamstring on him (never fell off) doing a medium trot down the long side when a cat darted out from under the trailer parked nearby. I had a number of trainers tell me what an amazing horse he was only to give me the “oh my” face when some unknown thing caused him to uncork for a few seconds. He really was an amazing horse, especially for a TB, but also always a challenge.
I did learn from him though. I learned to just ride the horse I had in the moment. I learned to quit expecting him to change and to just accept he would always be a dingbat. To be honest, initially, I became a very defensive rider which clearly didn’t help and was exquisitely hard to overcome. However, the less I expected from him and the more I appreciated his efforts, the better he got, and so I learned infinite patience. He was a horse that always wanted to have contact with legs and hand–no walking on the buckle for him, it was simply too stressful! If I felt him ramping up, I managed to teach him to chill with a few strides of “deep”, then back up to “normal.” We were just beginning to dabble in 4th level when he dropped dead from a ruptured aorta at age 19. He never did get over being tense at that one spot in the arena, but he did stop uncorking at least, and I truly loved riding him even though he was so challenging. Oh, one thing to try at the GoD that helped Lad and I…I did renver or counter si at the “bad place” instead of si. For some reason, facing shoulder or haunches TOWARDS the scary stuff worked better than bending AWAY from the scary stuff.
Anyway, best of luck to you and horsie.
This is a 10 page thread where you’ve been displeased with every suggestion offered. Some of these suggestions are really creative and innovative while others are good reliable tactics. You do not seem to have faith in the numerous highly qualified pros at your disposal, hence this post.
Maybe he’s in pain. Maybe he’s got a brain tumor. Maybe he’s just an asshole.
None of us have met him, much less seen you ride him. At the end of the day, either you enjoy riding a horse who you cannot trust and who tests you constantly despite trying a wide range of approaches or you don’t.
I once had a very talented horse who exhausted my financial resources and really rattled my confidence. In the end, there was a physical component but I also think there was something very off with his brain outside of his physical issues. A dear friend finally sat me down and said: “it’s okay to say enough is enough”. In my heart, that’s what I needed to stop chasing a rabbit down a neverending hole.
The outcome of him becoming a joyful partner who moves up the levels with you seems like it is improbable and that’s a hard pill to swallow. It also does not seem like he has enjoyed the other disciplines you’ve pursued. In your heart of hearts do you want someone to say he is beyond fixing and to walk away? Would you be happier if he was retired and a pasture puff? Would you find it rewarding to help a young pro jumpstart their career on a talented but tricky horse with a known explosive streak?
Just a reminder: you started this thread asking people on the internet for advice because none of these “quality trainers” you’ve used have been able to fix your horse.
One last plug for Tristan Tucker/TRT…the episodes on the “Vertical Mare”…really good stuff that could really help your horse, OP. Heck, just watch it and try some of it, and you never have to tell anyone that you did it. Do it on the sly. We don’t have to know you did it. Do it for your horse. Seriously.
That’s it. I wish you well. I really do.
Oh my!!! What a great story!
Thanks, I’m considering that this is the horse that I have. Rather than being defensive, I’m a bit cavalier. “Oh, you’ve been by this 50 times and act up now? Feel that spur?” I’m a pretty brave rider.
This guy can go on the buckle if you’d prefer Western Pleasure, but has excellent gaits. It all just goes to hell when he spooks sometimes. He actually prefers contact when he’s afraid. I’ve done s-o and renvers at the GoG, but you can sede in his eyes (wrinkles above them and whites of his eyes) that he’s mostly looking for scary things and is genuinely worried. He works much better when he’s bent away. I’m so sorry for the loss of your guy at only 19!
Based on this information, I’d put the horse on Depo. It’s now controversial and not show legal any longer, but if this is the root of the behavior, it might very well help.
My problem horse was started by his breeders who have been breeding for a long time and have had many successful, normal horses. His close-in breeding includes Olympians, one of which I had the opportunity to work with for a summer and was partly why I bought my guy over the other “easier” horses I tried. But the way he reacted to some things, you’d think he’d been tied and beaten. Of course that was not the case. I could jump him around 3’ out in an open field when I tried him as a 4yo. But just because he had enough training for that doesn’t mean he didn’t also need a lot of really simple, beyond back to basics work to help him handle his own mind. Depo also helped take away the obsessive hyper-vigilant behaviors, and I kind of wish I’d tried it much sooner than I did, but I thought it was for “quieting” horses and he could at times be as dull as a rock.
How bizzare that you don’t think I’d tell anyone about a useful method. You clearly miss the point of this thread.
But thanks!
That’s why I suggested getting his attention and keeping it. Being bent away is exactly what he needs to be doing all the time until he relaxes. He relaxes go back to being straight. My horse spent a lot of time bending and not just traveling straight because of the same issue. When she relaxed I would reward her with a stretchy trot (she loves those) and going large. If she wanted to act like the arena monsters are going to eat her (blue barrels) she can work hard.
This can get fixed if he learns his attention must be on you 100% of the time. If I let my mare start looking around all heck will break loose. It took a lot of time. It’s fixable, you just have to be consistent.
None of his dressage training matters if he’s going loose his marbles over a gate.
No, I explained that I already tried the approaches offered. This meant too narrow the conversation but I can see how people can consider this as me arguing with them.
My horse doesn’t rattle my confidence, I’ve been looking for training approaches. It’s OK to not answer or say “I don’t know.”.
Your last paragraph isn’t true and my inclination is to challenge you on this, but I suspect there isn’t any point. I’ll end here. Thanks for your input.
It’s not hthyis easy.
You can’t always get his attention and keep. He’s often (not always) genuinely worried. He’s not relaxed when bent away from scary things, he knows they are still there, He regularly goes into this side of the arena in shoulder fore or shoulder -in. Yeah, he works hard and is allowed to stretch after the gate.
No, he doesn’t get to take over the ride. why would you think he does? Come on.
Think of a horse with training, what else do you have?
OP, I’m the one who suggested starting with hand walking. I know the guy in the video did not start your horse; I was merely reacting to what I saw in the video you chose to post.
Friend, I’m saying this to you with compassion and gentleness. I want you to consider that you asked for opinions and thoughts and you’ve received many that are excellent ideas. You have rejected each of these; none is good enough, or what you want to hear. That’s okay. That’s your right. But if you respond to people in such a way when you ask something of them - nothing is good enough or correct - how do you think your horse feels when you ask something from him?
I did in fact read every post, thought about a response, took the time to write a response to you, a stranger, who’d asked for help. It’s probably taken an hour of my day, which I’ve gladly given. Consider the bolded parts, however, which were directed at me and in which you exhibit exasperation. Consider how an animal who’s trying to please you might feel when a similar wave of frustration is directed at him. How could that animal feel confident amid that wash of strong feeling?
I would do ground work first and then ride. My horse didn’t get to stretch after the scary thing. She got to stretch when she actually relaxed a bit no matter where we were in the arena.
Literally every five steps or strides we did something different. Always bending unless popping her over a cross rail. I would try to let her go straight and if the ears went off me back to bending we would go. IME keeping the brain engaged keeps the spooking down.
I didn’t mean to imply he was taking over the ride. I meant that if his brain isn’t focused on the task at hand he will focus on whatever else he wants. And then he will explode because he’s not thinking just reacting. Keep him thinking.
My horse had training too. The solution for her previous owner who rode dressage was regumate and then giving up and selling. Prior to that she was on the track. She’s a pretty solid citizen now. Hot but not dumping me.
Forget about what level he’s trained to. Get him thinking. 10 meter circle into a serpentine over a cross rail back to a 10 meter circle, spiral out to 20 meters change directions, do it again and then see if he’s attentive enough to go large. If he’s not create some other wacky pattern to ride adjusting the gaits as necessary.
ETA: With the gate, if he starts to shy away before spooking, let him. But make him half pass every single time. Off the rail and back on. And my stretchy trot is the cool down. Our current dilemma is walk breaks. She thinks she’s done spins and threatens to rear. Getting better though.
The fact that you wont train the horse you have, not the horse you think or wish you had, speak volumes about your capabilities.
what, is it beneath you to take it down a notch, take it back to the beginning for a minute? See where the hole actually is? It’s not admitting defeat, it’s being introspective. But hell no, how could you look like such a fool hand walking around. That’s for peons, I guess.
Once more, you prove it’s all about you and your goals for this horse. It’s not about him, and it never was. Me me me.
I wish you’d just give the method a chance. I honestly just discovered TRT via this thread a couple of days ago, and the idea that there is a person like you out there with a horse like yours who is dismissing one of the best training philosophies and methods out there for exactly the kind of thing you’re dealing with just blows my mind. I don’t know what you saw or what Tristan said to you when you met him that made you think he and his methods couldn’t be helpful, but I wish you’d reconsider and at least watch some of his videos. Maybe you won’t see any value in them, but I’ve been riding for 30 years, and I’ve also worked with everything from local riding coaches to NH trainers to Olympians, and I have never seen anyone better at training a horse to think and calm itself when presented with a stressful situation.
I think the point of this thread was to seek out advice from a bunch of internet strangers about how to deal with your spooky horse. You’ve been given a lot of advice. Now it’s your turn to either explore it or ignore it.
My brother will tell you the same thing. A horse does not whimper like a kitten or yelp like a puppy.
Instead they snort, spook, spin, buck, bolt and/or rear.
It is not a naughty horse that snorts,spooks, spins, bucks, bolts and/or rears. They are communicating with you and the behaviour starts small when they tell you. When you do not listen they end up yelling.
They are communicating that they are in pain or they do not understand or are overfed.
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