Horse ets spookier with work

[SuzieQNutter]

@J-Lu

That’s OK. I told the NH resident trainer about this, who is not emotionally attached to horses. He said “I do that with [the favorite horse he owns], too”. I am not opposed at all to speaking “horse” with my horse; I don’t expect him to see me as anything but “boss mare” from his perspective, so why not allow mutual grooming when I scratch his itchy spots? It is a bond reinforcing behavior. He doesn’t bite or move his feet. He’s extremely expressive about grooming and scratching (loooooooves it), and most things. He has a very big personality and really enjoys being around people. I pick my battles.

Scratching his itches which he enjoys is not mutual grooming which I was thinking of when you said it. Mutual grooming which they do with each other is the big no no with you.

If he loves it this much you will probably find that brushing him over daily with permoxin will take away the itch. We do that after every ride. I don’t know if you have that over there.

Every horse is different. Every horse is unique. Normal exercises do not work on them UNTIL,

they start getting over the basics and start understanding and then suddenly the exercise that did not work before works now. This is why something that you tried before, that did not work may work now.

Also don’t forget that every horse has read their own book. Not our textbooks. The horse book they share with each other. This is not the book you want them to read.

That is the book you need to understand and it is not written in English, you are told about it with every horse you interact with. This is why good trainers can go from one horse to another. Exactly how a good musician can go from one instrument to another with instruction.

You can’t tire out an adrenalized tb. So you never try but it should not happen again and if it does with side reins he is working himself and less likely to injure himself.

So what would I do?

Grassy hay only. 24/7 turn out. Lunging twice a day in solid side reins at the GOD. Controversial all of that but elastic side reins can teach them to pull and lean. Twice a day as he sounds fit and strong.

Lunging without side reins causes a very fit horse but not a horse that is in work. After months the rider gets into trouble as the horse especially an otttb gets too fit for the rider. Not only does lunging without side reins cause this, but so does a hot horse that is ridden and not worked. Eg walk, trot, canter and jumping jumps only warms them up and is not work. That is also where a lot of riders get into trouble with ottbs after months of riding. I am talking generally not saying yours is a tb. I am also not saying all tbs.

You do not sound like you have this problem with your riding. You sound like you can work a horse. I have not seen you ride.

I would lunge twice a day at the GOD, just like you did, until there is no reaction. No reaction to GOD. No reaction to next door neighbor mowing. No reaction to horses galloping in the field. No reaction to gale force wind through long grass. No reaction to tripping, in my case with my mare, over hard cow manure, slipping on wet cow manure or if a calf came to look at her. If a pelican flew overhead. If she went in a dip on the ground. The list goes on.

I started lunging her as hubby bought her without me for him and saw me on her one day leaping from side to side in canter and banned me from riding her alone. Which of course I am 5 days a week.

So I lunged her in the solid side reins. I never pull them in. She was trained western, she went with her face horizontal to the sky, there was 3 feet between her back hoof steps and her front ones and she bucked at EVERYTHING. I mean everything. She bucked at the saddle so I changed it to a roller. She bucked for 3 days. I put the bridle on. 3 days. I put a loose side rein on. 3 days. You get the picture.

I lunged her just as something to do after I had ridden the gelding. I stuffed jeans with newspaper and tied it to the saddle. I put boots in the stirrups where they wouldn’t hit her elbows and let them dance around her. She had been ridden in a stock saddle with their feet on her shoulders and she was reacting to my legs on her side. I figured this out one day when she reacted to the rein touching her neck. I stayed in halt and touched her all over to show her that being touched did not matter.

I only lunged her once a day. We did not get to no reaction in 3 days. Sigh.

Then one day I realised that she had not bucked for absolutely ages. I was now looking at a dressage horse. She WAS TRACKING UP. I actually cannot tell you how long this was but I started lunging her down in the cow paddock and by now we had built a dressage arena. Lets say months but yours is a lot more advanced than she was.

I hopped on her. Nobody else around but she had told me that it was okay now. She was wonderful. You really know when a mare has bonded with you.

She never bucked again. Not the day she stumbled, went down, came up and just trotted forward.

Not the day that she slowed coming to the centre line and I thought it was because the sand was a bit deeper and non verbally assured her that everything was okay and to trot on. Along the rail I glanced down and I now know what they mean when they say that your life flashes before your eyes.

It really happens. I had seen that the side rein, that after lunging I had taken off the bit and attached it to the d ring at the top of the saddle, which incidentally I had been taught to do. Had detached from the d ring and was now swinging between her legs as she trotted.

I don’t actually remember doing it or how, as I said my life flashed before my eyes, but I asked for halt, bent down, picked up the side rein, reattached it to the d ring and asked for a halt trot transition and she trotted on as if nothing had happened. As I said she never bucked again.

[RhythmNCruise]

@J-Lu

Thanks. The video was when he was coming 4. He’s now 11.

The guy I worked with brought major changes to his mental state and I think understands behavior better and is more flexible than TT.

Can you see that the horse is tense and distracted and uncomfortable in that video that you posted? Can you see that the guy working with him seems either oblivious to the horse’s body language or surprised by it? Can you see that the last thing that horse needed IN THAT MOMENT was to have the back cinch of a western saddle buckled and flags flapped in his face? Can you see that the horse was nowhere NEAR ready for either of those things? Can you see that the guy was asking conflicting things of an already nervous and tense horse? Were you able to see that? Because the guy working with him obviously couldn’t.

I won’t speculate or judge anything else you or the other trainers have done with your horse. But that video you posted shows a guy who is not at all a good judge of a horse’s behavior. It doesn’t matter how old the horse is, how long he’s been there, or what happened after that video. IN THAT VIDEO the trainer is doing more harm than good. He’s exacerbating the situation by doing things to an insecure, reactive young horse that confirm its insecurity and reactivity. I know you say he benefited the horse in the long run, but all I can judge is what’s in that video. And that video says a lot. So does the fact that 7 years later you still have a horse that you don’t trust because he might put you in the hospital over the darn gate to his home arena.

I feel for you, and I hope you receive advice some day that you deem worthy.

[J-Lu]

@RhythmNCruise

Can you see that the horse is tense and distracted and uncomfortable in that video that you posted? Can you see that the guy working with him seems either oblivious to the horse’s body language or surprised by it? Can you see that the last thing that horse needed IN THAT MOMENT was to have the back cinch of a western saddle buckled and flags flapped in his face? Can you see that the horse was nowhere NEAR ready for either of those things? Can you see that the guy was asking conflicting things of an already nervous and tense horse? Were you able to see that? Because the guy working with him obviously couldn’t.

I won’t speculate or judge anything else you or the other trainers have done with your horse. But that video you posted shows a guy who is not at all a good judge of a horse’s behavior. It doesn’t matter how old the horse is, how long he’s been there, or what happened after that video. IN THAT VIDEO the trainer is doing more harm than good. He’s exacerbating the situation by doing things to an insecure, reactive young horse that confirm its insecurity and reactivity. I know you say he benefited the horse in the long run, but all I can judge is what’s in that video. And that video says a lot. So does the fact that 7 years later you still have a horse that you don’t trust because he might put you in the hospital over the darn gate to his home arena.

I feel for you, and I hope you receive advice some day that you deem worthy.

Ummm, yes. This horse bucked off a quality advanced level eventer working with him prior to this and she broke her collarbone. He was a mess as a 4 year old for no reason (AGAIN, professionally bred, handled and started - he was a mess when starting). This video was taken on day 4 of saddling. Did I mention he was professionally started a good 6 months prior, I rode him, took lessons, and eventer rode him, and this is how he responded to saddling? I disagree with your opinion of the guy working with him here.

That’s the risk of posting to COTH. I’ve worked with more than qualified dressage trainers, only one of whom will ride him, and other trainers. I’m sure you think they are terrible. You have no input other than basics. Thanks!

[J-Lu]

@IPEsq

Ok well here is one extension of what I did…liberty work. I don’t mean round penning. And I started on it in a paddock (which he considered his space). But I had built better connection on a line first. And some help from someone skilled in liberty work.

Another suggestion that someone mentioned—X-ray or ultrasound this horse’s neck and poll. Try a course of a substantial dose of methocarbamol, maybe he has a kind of wind up syndrome. Or hormones for the hyper vigilance.

Horse behavior is really not that complicated. And desensitization is really not the concept, so I would not have that as your goal. Especially not for this horse.

Yea, I regularly free longe my horse IN THE ARENA I RIDE IN. You probably missed that. By free longe , I mean no tack, not even a halter. He moves in circles around me and follows voice commands because he knows how to longe. He also knows how to be directed in various directions by my arm and body movements.

I think horse behavior is much more complicated than you think.

[J-Lu]

@AnastasiaBeaverhousen

OP you are out of line here. IPEsq has some really great threads about what she went through trying to get her horse sound
She really has some great advice that you should consider before you blow her off.
You’ve obviously spent a lot of resources trying to figure out why your horse does what he does.
He really isnt unique in the sense that he has a behavior that no other horse has ever displayed

I get why you are defensive, no one wants to admit they’ve got a horse they love but cant figure out.

I would contact the clinician that you mentioned up thread, the one who rode him so beautifully and see if you can send your horse off to him for a few weeks and see if that will make a difference.

I understand that it may not be feasible but after all the time and money you’ve already invested it may help you decide whether you want to keep going on with this horse.

You may have to face the possibility that he will never be the safe ride you want. Hes already hurt other people, so please consider this going forward.

There is no magic bullet here.

Her replies don’t apply to this horse, but is blaming me and the trainers. I’m not out of line, she misses the point.

Yea, he is unique. So say the many trainers I’ve employed (see first post). It seems that COTH people want to think he isn’t unique. OK. Whatever.

Horses don’t often display issues when a new rider is riding them. They are focused on figuring out the rider. The rider upthread lives in Germany. My current trainer will ride him and loves riding him but is aware she can’t push him. Why the hell don’t people on COTH want to listen? Are there no real trainers on this thread? I don’t get nearly this pushback when I talk to trainers in person. Sooooo frustrating.

[Fellbutbackup]

I am curious to see a recent video

[J-Lu]

Thanks, people.

I hoped to get some quality advice on COTH, and I did get some. It appears that some were offended when I said I tried their advice and got no response. It appears that some are offended that their advice doesn’t apply. They obviously aren’t good trainers.

I think I’ve met the limitations on helpfulness on COTH, so thanks to you who were really trying to be helpful. I’ll rely on quality RL trainers in the future.

[J-Lu]

@SuzieQNutter

Scratching his itches which he enjoys is not mutual grooming which I was thinking of when you said it. Mutual grooming which they do with each other is the big no no with you.

If he loves it this much you will probably find that brushing him over daily with permoxin will take away the itch. We do that after every ride. I don’t know if you have that over there.

Every horse is different. Every horse is unique. Normal exercises do not work on them UNTIL,

they start getting over the basics and start understanding and then suddenly the exercise that did not work before works now. This is why something that you tried before, that did not work may work now.

Also don’t forget that every horse has read their own book. Not our textbooks. The horse book they share with each other. This is not the book you want them to read.

That is the book you need to understand and it is not written in English, you are told about it with every horse you interact with. This is why good trainers can go from one horse to another. Exactly how a good musician can go from one instrument to another with instruction.

You can’t tire out an adrenalized tb. So you never try but it should not happen again and if it does with side reins he is working himself and less likely to injure himself.

So what would I do?

Grassy hay only. 24/7 turn out. Lunging twice a day in solid side reins at the GOD. Controversial all of that but elastic side reins can teach them to pull and lean. Twice a day as he sounds fit and strong.

Lunging without side reins causes a very fit horse but not a horse that is in work. After months the rider gets into trouble as the horse especially an otttb gets too fit for the rider. Not only does lunging without side reins cause this, but so does a hot horse that is ridden and not worked. Eg walk, trot, canter and jumping jumps only warms them up and is not work. That is also where a lot of riders get into trouble with ottbs after months of riding. I am talking generally not saying yours is a tb. I am also not saying all tbs.

You do not sound like you have this problem with your riding. You sound like you can work a horse. I have not seen you ride.

I would lunge twice a day at the GOD, just like you did, until there is no reaction. No reaction to GOD. No reaction to next door neighbor mowing. No reaction to horses galloping in the field. No reaction to gale force wind through long grass. No reaction to tripping, in my case with my mare, over hard cow manure, slipping on wet cow manure or if a calf came to look at her. If a pelican flew overhead. If she went in a dip on the ground. The list goes on.

I started lunging her as hubby bought her without me for him and saw me on her one day leaping from side to side in canter and banned me from riding her alone. Which of course I am 5 days a week.

So I lunged her in the solid side reins. I never pull them in. She was trained western, she went with her face horizontal to the sky, there was 3 feet between her back hoof steps and her front ones and she bucked at EVERYTHING. I mean everything. She bucked at the saddle so I changed it to a roller. She bucked for 3 days. I put the bridle on. 3 days. I put a loose side rein on. 3 days. You get the picture.

I lunged her just as something to do after I had ridden the gelding. I stuffed jeans with newspaper and tied it to the saddle. I put boots in the stirrups where they wouldn’t hit her elbows and let them dance around her. She had been ridden in a stock saddle with their feet on her shoulders and she was reacting to my legs on her side. I figured this out one day when she reacted to the rein touching her neck. I stayed in halt and touched her all over to show her that being touched did not matter.

I only lunged her once a day. We did not get to no reaction in 3 days. Sigh.

Then one day I realised that she had not bucked for absolutely ages. I was now looking at a dressage horse. She WAS TRACKING UP. I actually cannot tell you how long this was but I started lunging her down in the cow paddock and by now we had built a dressage arena. Lets say months but yours is a lot more advanced than she was.

I hopped on her. Nobody else around but she had told me that it was okay now. She was wonderful. You really know when a mare has bonded with you.

She never bucked again. Not the day she stumbled, went down, came up and just trotted forward.

Not the day that she slowed coming to the centre line and I thought it was because the sand was a bit deeper and non verbally assured her that everything was okay and to trot on. Along the rail I glanced down and I now know what they mean when they say that your life flashes before your eyes.

It really happens. I had seen that the side rein, that after lunging I had taken off the bit and attached it to the d ring at the top of the saddle, which incidentally I had been taught to do. Had detached from the d ring and was now swinging between her legs as she trotted.

I don’t actually remember doing it or how, as I said my life flashed before my eyes, but I asked for halt, bent down, picked up the side rein, reattached it to the d ring and asked for a halt trot transition and she trotted on as if nothing had happened. As I said she never bucked again.

Oh PLEASE!!! You have missed of this post, post, as have others.

He’s turned out 24/7. He gets longed in side reins when not working for periods. He’s not an OTTB.

How did you attach your rien to the D-ring? I surmise what you did, and I’m not sure that would work with this horse, but I’m curious to know your set-up.

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

How did you come to buy this horse?

[J-Lu]

@RhythmNCruise

There’s always a reason.

For what it’s worth, and I know you’ve already dismissed him as not being worth your time either, but I’d never even heard of Tristan Tucker until this discussion (though I realized once I Youtubed him that I’d seen his funny dressage “demonstrations”). I watched a two-part video of a session he did with an “Explosive” 5-year old gelding called Ironman. I’m not easily impressed with most “TV trainers” to be honest, but this guy gets it. He understands horses, and I thought about you and your horse while watching the videos.
I’ve linked the first video (Episode #7) and it continues with Episode #8.
I know you may not be interested, but maybe others will be. I’m glad I discovered him thanks to this thread at least.

ETA: After reviewing your original post, I’ll add one more thing before I hush for good. Regarding supplements: SmartCalm Ultra is one of the better calming supplements I’ve ever used. I don’t tend to put much stock in them in general, but I used that one when hauling my horse to shows when he was young, and it definitely helped him chill out and focus better.

Yes, there is always a reason. Sometimes it is the horse’s reactions and ability to process information.

Did you miss where I said I discussed this horse with Tristan in person?

[J-Lu]

@AnastasiaBeaverhousen

How did you come to buy this horse?

I didn’t buy this horse.

[J-Lu]

@AnastasiaBeaverhousen

How did you come to buy this horse?

I didn’t buy this horse.

[CanteringCarrot]

@J-Lu

Thanks, people.

I hoped to get some quality advice on COTH, and I did get some. It appears that some were offended when I said I tried their advice and got no response. It appears that some are offended that their advice doesn’t apply. They obviously aren’t good trainers.

I think I’ve met the limitations on helpfulness on COTH, so thanks to you who were really trying to be helpful. I’ll rely on quality RL trainers in the future.

I’ve tried to keep quiet on this, and I have a “different character” of a horse myself, but the condescending tone and rudeness is too much.

Obviously they (people on this board) aren’t good trainers. Obviously. How utterly rude. People are trying to assist. They don’t know you and your horse from a hole in the wall. You’ve posted videos from years ago. No recent ones, so they don’t even have anything visual to go off of. Which, may have helped you receive more relevant and accurate advice. I know it’s frustrating when people don’t read every word of your post, or misjudge a situation, but it happens. If it is so not useful, just ignore it, they didn’t take the time to understand the situation.

I haven’t seen anyone be terribly insulting, remember, they generally mean well and don’t know you. I’ve missed simple things before (oops! I guess I’m not a good trainer or rider!) so I don’t get too offended when people point out the obvious or basics. No one is offended that their advice doesn’t reply, they’re mostly offended at your crap attitude.

But yes, please rely on quality RL trainers, because we’re all shite and have probably never brought along a difficult or different horse. Heck, maybe we’ve never even touched a horse! You’re clearly eons above all of us! All kidding around aside, these RL trainers know you and the horse best, so that’s a more valuable approach if you have access to quality trainers in person. If what they say works for you and they understand your horse, there’s no need for our input. Each person often speaks from their own experiences, which can differ or not be relevant to every horse, and that’s fine.

IIRC you’ve tried Working Equitation with this horse which means you are open to some new methods or thinking a bit outside of the “dressage box” and I can commend you for those efforts, I think that’s great. As well as the use of the NH trainer. Sometimes acquiring knowledge from different “disciplines” can be valuable and open us up to methods or a way of thinking we might not have considered otherwise. Best of luck to you and your horse.

[fordtraktor]

@CanteringCarrot

I’ve tried to keep quiet on this, and I have a “different character” of a horse myself, but the condescending tone and rudeness is too much.

Obviously they (people on this board) aren’t good trainers. Obviously. How utterly rude. People are trying to assist. They don’t know you and your horse from a hole in the wall. You’ve posted videos from years ago. No recent ones, so they don’t even have anything visual to go off of. Which, may have helped you receive more relevant and accurate advice. I know it’s frustrating when people don’t read every word of your post, or misjudge a situation, but it happens. If it is so not useful, just ignore it, they didn’t take the time to understand the situation.

I haven’t seen anyone be terribly insulting, remember, they generally mean well and don’t know you. I’ve missed simple things before (oops! I guess I’m not a good trainer or rider!) so I don’t get too offended when people point out the obvious or basics. No one is offended that their advice doesn’t reply, they’re mostly offended at your crap attitude.

But yes, please rely on quality RL trainers, because we’re all shite and have probably never brought along a difficult or different horse. Heck, maybe we’ve never even touched a horse! You’re clearly eons above all of us! All kidding around aside, these RL trainers know you and the horse best, so that’s a more valuable approach if you have access to quality trainers in person. If what they say works for you and they understand your horse, there’s no need for our input. Each person often speaks from their own experiences, which can differ or not be relevant to every horse, and that’s fine.

IIRC you’ve tried Working Equitation with this horse which means you are open to some new methods or thinking a bit outside of the “dressage box” and I can commend you for those efforts, I think that’s great. As well as the use of the NH trainer. Sometimes acquiring knowledge from different “disciplines” can be valuable and open us up to methods or a way of thinking we might not have considered otherwise. Best of luck to you and your horse.

Amen. OP has supposedly “tried” everything with no results. Meanwhile her quite aged horse is still “spooking” at the same things after 6 years of work with supposedly the best real life trainers. I find it hard to believe any system has been applied methodically and for a long enough time to be successful.

Many of us have or have had very spooky, difficult horses and have used a variety of methods to make progress with them. Many of the most brilliant horses are quirky and difficult. I am more than willing to meet them in the middle and figure out what makes them tick, but that isn’t easy to do based off a many years old clip and the OP’s descriptions which rule out everything anyone says.

All I see in this thread is a bunch of excuses for horse and rider. I don’t know what OP is expecting from us. I have actually seen this quite a lot IRL, “my horse is so special and unique and not like any other horse and that’s is why my training has stalled at a low level” or as an excuse not to ride the horse at all.

OP, if you are serious you should look at the recent COTH article about the former Young Rider who took her GP horse back to square one after an epic meltdown at WEF a few years ago. After slow, steady complete rehabilitation as if he was being started as a colt, they are back in the ring and doing well. That is what you need to do if you want results, IMO.

alternatively, put your horse in a program with one of those world class trainers you have, and commit to that program. They should be able to help you make progress.

[RhythmNCruise]

@J-Lu

Yes, there is always a reason. Sometimes it is the horse’s reactions and ability to process information.

Did you miss where I said I discussed this horse with Tristan in person?

No, I saw that. Did you miss where I said “I know you’ve dismissed him as not being worth your time either”?

You are correct that the reason can be the horse’s reactions and ability to process information. Tristan Tucker literally talks about the importance of giving the horse that information so that he can make good decisions and be in control of his reactions and body. That’s kind of the foundation of his entire philosophy.

Have you spent much time watching him work with horses and listening to his philosophy and methods? Have you tried any of it with your horse? You say you discussed your horse with him and you were not impressed? Can you elaborate on that? What was it he said that made you feel he couldn’t help your horse? What is it about his philosophy and methods that you feel will not work with your horse?

[IPEsq]

@J-Lu

Yea, I regularly free longe my horse IN THE ARENA I RIDE IN. You probably missed that. By free longe , I mean no tack, not even a halter. He moves in circles around me and follows voice commands because he knows how to longe. He also knows how to be directed in various directions by my arm and body movements.

I think horse behavior is much more complicated than you think.

Free longeing in the arena is not what I was suggesting.

[IPEsq]

Also since the discussion has come back to Tristan, before I had heard of him I used a body worker who knows him through a guy T used to work for in Australia. This guy is a good horse trainer in his own right, having had a successful cutting horse business in the past including starting a lot of colts. Some of what a Tristan has recently added to his discussions come from working with him about bringing awareness to areas of tension in the horse’s body through touch.

He started working on my horse in the middle of a 6 month layup. He also was asked by my vet to trot him in hand in the arena for the first time in months which aside from producing a pretty lovely passage involved my horse exploding from a near standstill with all 4 feet above this guy’s shoulder height a few times. Horse tried to shove him around the stall several times. Would decide he was leaving. Even tried standing up on his hands when he was stretching out a front leg. We have become friends since then.

The change he could produce in my horse and the control he had over his energy in order to do this was remarkable. And then when I had to rehab this horse and give him a job when he then went on to have chronic pain issues that were typically performance and behavior limiting only (no limping), I had to learn a different way to doing things and looking at things. It got really bad before it got better. Really bad. There were some days I had to repeat out loud to myself “You don’t get to hurt me today” as he reared straight up or charged at an arena wall…so I could try to keep riding forward and not freeze. He once gave himself a scraped up nose when I called his bluff on the arena wall. He was obviously more of a fighter than a spin and runner. His fear came out more as bolt and buck and he did plenty of that too. Around this time is when Warwick Schiller started looking more at the horse’s mental state and I started to follow him. I took a clinic from Anna Blake. I had done a lot of “groundwork” but I started over completely.

Anyway, my friend had been traveling over to work on Tristan’s horses a lot and you could see him changing his methods some to focus on not just if the horse had tension but where the horse had tension. You see this when he touches points at the base of the neck. I have also seen horses who instead tremble in the flank.

The trainer who helped me with the liberty work also did a bit of a restart on him using a lot of the same philosophies. She also had done a lot of starts and restarts but was also rethinking the traditional methods and looking more at how the horse was feeling. She had started taking clinics from Frederic Pignon (one of the originators if Cavalia). She also played with some Straightness Training, but I find that method difficult because the lady is hard to follow.

A book you might find interesting is Mark Rashid’s Finding The Missed Path - The Art of Restarting Horses.

My problem horse was never going to be totally fixed. But he did get to a place where I didn’t always have to be scared which he hated. Upon necropsy we found just how much pain he must have had despite our best efforts. He was a sweetheart on the ground and didn’t like sitting around and so I tried everything. It wasn’t smooth sailing or even a constant positive trajectory in the slightest, but that didn’t make me dismiss the process.

It is difficult to do this using online help. But it can be educational to watch some of these trainers work with horses that exhibit some of the similar behaviors. I hope you can find a RL trainer that can find out the secret to this horse. And I also would not dismiss the idea that there is a physical component (including neurologic or chemical). But of course I’m sure none of my experience could possibly apply to this horse. But maybe some of the resources I mentioned might be interesting to someone else following the thread.

[Denali6298]

OP I have a horse that was like yours. The best explanation I got on how to fix the behavior was to create a bigger worry cup. This came about when she dumped me because she backed into the end of a ground pole and she touched it with her hoof. She had a complete overreaction.

So while yes we were working on lateral movements, grids and jumping small courses, she lost her mind if something scared her.

My goal then became filling her worry cup so it gets bigger. My goal was to get her to THINK instead of react. To accomplish that goal we did a lot of ground work and one ear HAD to be on me. Same thing for under saddle work. She was not allowed to look outside of the arena.

During ground work I purposefully did things to make her spook. For example she HATED the lunge whip being waved 10 feet in front of her face. I kept waving it because she freaked out and decided rearing and backing up out of the arena was an appropriate response. I’d stop once she relaxed a little bit. I would do that all the time and she went from freak out to ugly mare faces while standing. Now she doesn’t care.

For under saddle I will use your gate of doom to explain something that really helped us. When my horse spooked at some permanent thing in the arena I made it clear that she could move away from it, but it will be while leg yielding. I spent a lot of time riding 10 meter circles around the area because if she for one second had time to think my butt would be on the ground.

We did poles, caveletti, small jumps, serpentines, large circles, small circles, all in rapid succession. I kept her guessing and her attention on me.

Horses can have great training and a small worry cup. While I get you have tried different things with this horse, you need to realize it takes a long time with a method that works for you both. What I mean by that is, a method you can effectively implement that has him relaxing a little bit. It took my horse two years to get it. She still spooks but it’s not as bad.

I think if you approach the training with the goal of getting your horse to think through scary stuff rather than desensitizing him to scary stuff you will make better progress. Remember too that any training method will not work if you don’t have the horse’s attention. That needs to be your first goal.

ETA: The highly qualified people you’ve had work this horse doesn’t matter. It’s clear to me no one spent the time teaching him to think instead of overreact. Despite what he knows, I recommend stepping back to basics and purposefully spooking him so he can learn to think. My horse trusted me 100% on the ground. Not so much in the tack.

[SuzieQNutter]

@J-Lu

Oh PLEASE!!! You have missed of this post, post, as have others.

He’s turned out 24/7. He gets longed in side reins when not working for periods. He’s not an OTTB.

How did you attach your rien to the D-ring? I surmise what you did, and I’m not sure that would work with this horse, but I’m curious to know your set-up.

Oh PLEASE. I did read your posts. You did not read mine. I said in my post not saying yours is a tb. I did say not all tbs just an example of a hot breed.

The mare I was talking about was not a tb.

You said you do not lunge often and do lunge at times without side reins.

For posterity “Yea, I regularly free longe my horse IN THE ARENA I RIDE IN. You probably missed that. By free longe , I mean no tack, not even a halter. He moves in circles around me and follows voice commands because he knows how to longe. He also knows how to be directed in various directions by my arm and body movements.”

That is where my post came from and where I said would be different. This is the thing I would change immediately. He is just being warmed up, not worked.

[Balmonty]

Wow, I have tried to read all of this before I put in my post but I’ve got to be honest I couldn’t read it all! So forgive me if I say all the things that have been said already.

Firstly, horses are incredibly agreeable and trainable and I really don’t think they try and and be naughty. If they were really calculating, they wouldn’t let me catch them, they would jump out of their fields and they would dump me every time I got on. But instead they forgive the rides when I don’t ride well and they still continue to try and please me. So my point is, I doubt your horse is spooking just to be naughty.

Horses are prey animals and humans really struggle to grasp that idea. We are not a prey animal so cannot understand what it would be like to spend everyday thinking something could jump out and kill you. I can only imagine it would be like living everyday in a war zone. We have to provide them with a safe bunker, or as the rider trainer, we have to give them enough confidence that they are safe with us while we work them.

As for pain, horses can tolerate a LOT of skeletal pain and still bust their arse for us. Over the past 30 years I have trained horses with terrible skeletal problems that I had no idea were there until it was too late (if I knew then what I know now…). Lame horses will still go around and try and do what we ask. I am sure if he had a skeletal problems, sacro or kissing spine, you would see it in his topline or way of going. If he bolts and bucks, I doubt it is skeletal. I can tell by your posts that you have looked into all of that and continue to seek the advice of vets and bodyworkers.

What horses don’t seem to be able to cope with is gut pain. Maybe it is their design so they don’t get complacent as a prey animal. Maybe if they didn’t get an acid splash in the gut every time a lion or tiger jumped out, they would get complacent and not instantly react and run. Their biggest weakness of this vulnerable gut area prone to ulcers, might also be the kick in the guts they need to keep them on their toes so they survive.

I know you said you have treated him for ulcers and didn’t really notice a difference, but if they have suffered something for a long time and have a low tolerance of it, it can take months for them to start trusting that the problem has gone. In all my years of training horses it seems that gut pain is the biggest trigger than any other pain for bad behaviour. So many riders say “he went past that and did a massive shy and nothing even happened”. We only think nothing happened, but we can’t see pain. No doubt something did happen to them. The fact that your horse gets worse as the ride goes on is consistent with acid splashes/ulcer pain. If he usually gets a gut pain at a particular part of the arena, he will be weary of that spot. And if the gut pain is intense, it will cause him to run away or bolt from the situation.

I note you said that sometimes when you saddle him he bucks or otherwise refuses to bend. He sounds very much like my problem horse that ended up being treated for ulcers. Not with the normal oral stuff though, with the new weekly injection that has a much better success rate. I had spent over 18months trying to figure out what was wrong with him. If you look at my thread I put up the other day called “Injectable Omeprazole . can ulcers cause back pain…” you can see the video from week 1of what he would do when the saddle went on and see if that looks like your boy. I didn’t ad in my post but he used to be super spooky to ride, he was always looking for gremlins around the arena. Now he can even handle the dogs running around and the water pump coming on when we ride past.

Anyway, may be totally irrelevant for your boy but just thought I would share my thoughts with you. As I said, I don’t think horses are naughty without pain, and I also think that horses will mask skeletal pain and still work for us.

PS @J-Lu Good luck!