Horse ets spookier with work

[kande04]

There are different opinions on the value of flooding (make him do it now) vs gradual habituation, and I think I may now be seeing the benefits of gradual habituation vs flooding. The horses that I’ve gradually habituated seem to have ended up more confident than the ones I pushed harder–although it’s hard to say for sure because there are so many factors that go into habituating a horse to the things he fears–and we’re often talking decades rather than weeks or months.

And then there’s also the problem with evaluating which worked better, but I think what I’m seeing is that horses who have been allowed to habituate gradually end up more dependable than those who have been pushed harder (same time frame).

The problem with pushing harder may be the risk of causing horsie ptsd, in which the horse seems like he’s okay when he’s actually fearful of negative (painful) consequences on top of his original fears, which he’s never actually overcome.

[RedHorses]

J-Lu - You aren’t just dealing with an unusual horse, you are also aware enough of your own abilities and approach to things to recognize when a technique or method isn’t something that you can do. The person using whatever strategy or method affects the application and the way the horse responds. We don’t have to try everything especially if we’re aware enough to recognize “that’s not going to work for me.” I think that’s a valuable trait/skill to have when dealing with unusual horses like ours. :yes:

[J-Lu]

@SuzieQNutter

“We groom each other” as far as I know is a big No No and a red flag for me for your “partnership”.

That’s OK. I told the NH resident trainer about this, who is not emotionally attached to horses. He said “I do that with [the favorite horse he owns], too”. I am not opposed at all to speaking “horse” with my horse; I don’t expect him to see me as anything but “boss mare” from his perspective, so why not allow mutual grooming when I scratch his itchy spots? It is a bond reinforcing behavior. He doesn’t bite or move his feet. He’s extremely expressive about grooming and scratching (loooooooves it), and most things. He has a very big personality and really enjoys being around people. I pick my battles.

[RhythmNCruise]

J-Lu, first of all, you are a real trooper for sticking with a horse like this. I’ve dealt with a few, and I just don’t have the patience or courage (especially as I get older) to put up with it. There are too many horses out there who are willing, compliant, safe partners for me to invest the blood, sweat, and tears (and money) into one like yours. So, big kudos to you for keeping with him and trying to make him a better horse.

I have to say though, that when I watched that video of the NH trainer working with him, it all made sense. Not only was that guy totally misreading the horse and doing exercises with it that it was not in ANY way mentally ready for, apparently you don’t see that either. That wasn’t a video of a horse that is afraid of flags. That was a video of a human TEACHING a horse to be afraid of flags (and cinches, and…people).

Your horse doesn’t trust people to keep him safe, and that video was probably just 8 minutes of his life that confirmed what was probably already present in his mind from birth: “People do stuff that scares me.” He doesn’t trust that NH trainer…at least not in that 8 minutes, and horses live in the present, we have to train what’s standing there in front of us, not what we had in front of us yesterday or a week ago.

You said in one post you are not afraid of him. Yet you often think about whether you want to risk getting sent to the hospital by him that day when you ride. These two things don’t add up. And frankly, you have every right to be afraid of him. You don’t trust him. And that feeling is mutual.

That’s where you have to start. And I know he has a history of a lot of time, energy, and money being invested in him, and you are truly to be commended for that. But until he trusts you (and people in general), you won’t be able to trust him.

Other than that, I’d say to stop referring to the gate of your arena as “The Gate of Doom” both on here an in your own mind. It’s just a gate. Don’t play into your horse’s anxiety by developing negative associations with things he has an aversion too. And, as hard as it is, stop thinking of him as a special snowflake who has to be treated differently. This is a horse who needs his routine and world to be upset often so that he can learn to cope. It’s not going to be comfortable or easy for everyone, but he CAN learn it. He needs to trust and have confidence in the people who are working with him to gain those coping skills.

I hope this doesn’t come across as critical. It probably does, but I see and understand your frustration. And I really do admire you for all of your effort and care for this horse. I hope you continue to find success with him.

[oranges2016]

Have read most all these pages. Lots of good advice but OP, you often seem dismissive or explain away any that does not seem to apply (in your view) to you, your horse, your past or present trainers or training methods . At this point, you may - or may not - be able to change your horse, despite your efforts and commitment to him. I’d be asking myself at this point is it fair to him or to my riding goals to continue this partnership. If not, find another partner for him or maybe an entirely different job, place. Not a criticism, have been there myself and only felt good about it for both horse and myself.

As an aside, the best in the world for me for ground work through GP is Tristan Tucker. It goes 100% beyond Natural Horsemanship.

[J-Lu]

@RhythmNCruise

J-Lu, first of all, you are a real trooper for sticking with a horse like this. I’ve dealt with a few, and I just don’t have the patience or courage (especially as I get older) to put up with it. There are too many horses out there who are willing, compliant, safe partners for me to invest the blood, sweat, and tears (and money) into one like yours. So, big kudos to you for keeping with him and trying to make him a better horse.

I have to say though, that when I watched that video of the NH trainer working with him, it all made sense. Not only was that guy totally misreading the horse and doing exercises with it that it was not in ANY way mentally ready for, apparently you don’t see that either. That wasn’t a video of a horse that is afraid of flags. That was a video of a human TEACHING a horse to be afraid of flags (and cinches, and…people).

Your horse doesn’t trust people to keep him safe, and that video was probably just 8 minutes of his life that confirmed what was probably already present in his mind from birth: “People do stuff that scares me.” He doesn’t trust that NH trainer…at least not in that 8 minutes, and horses live in the present, we have to train what’s standing there in front of us, not what we had in front of us yesterday or a week ago.

You said in one post you are not afraid of him. Yet you often think about whether you want to risk getting sent to the hospital by him that day when you ride. These two things don’t add up. And frankly, you have every right to be afraid of him. You don’t trust him. And that feeling is mutual.

That’s where you have to start. And I know he has a history of a lot of time, energy, and money being invested in him, and you are truly to be commended for that. But until he trusts you (and people in general), you won’t be able to trust him.

Other than that, I’d say to stop referring to the gate of your arena as “The Gate of Doom” both on here an in your own mind. It’s just a gate. Don’t play into your horse’s anxiety by developing negative associations with things he has an aversion too. And, as hard as it is, stop thinking of him as a special snowflake who has to be treated differently. This is a horse who needs his routine and world to be upset often so that he can learn to cope. It’s not going to be comfortable or easy for everyone, but he CAN learn it. He needs to trust and have confidence in the people who are working with him to gain those coping skills.

I hope this doesn’t come across as critical. It probably does, but I see and understand your frustration. And I really do admire you for all of your effort and care for this horse. I hope you continue to find success with him.

Thanks for your reply!

That was Part 4, over a week of showing the horse to the Western Saddle. He had been started professionally before and I rode him before many times. So did other professional trainers to the detriment of one.

He’s not trustworthy. I ride him according to my rules/aids but he can’t always adhere to them. He gets afraid. He mostly trusts me, and people, but he has his own reasons for fearing things. I have to work with that. Have YOU ever ridden and trained a very afraid horse?

I don’t play into my horse’s anxiety, which is why I work with professionals. And of note, I’ve worked with professionals over the last 6 years, all of whom recognize that this horse is “special”. Let’s be realistic. Do you think you’re a better trainer that most?

[J-Lu]

@oranges2016

Have read most all these pages. Lots of good advice but OP, you often seem dismissive or explain away any that does not seem to apply (in your view) to you, your horse, your past or present trainers or training methods . At this point, you may - or may not - be able to change your horse, despite your efforts and commitment to him. I’d be asking myself at this point is it fair to him or to my riding goals to continue this partnership. If not, find another partner for him or maybe an entirely different job, place. Not a criticism, have been there myself and only felt good about it for both horse and myself.

As an aside, the best in the world for me for ground work through GP is Tristan Tucker. It goes 100% beyond Natural Horsemanship.

i’m dismissive because I’ve already tried what most people have suggested. Very nice to suggest selling him, but he isn’t a very sell-able horse. Rare owners could work with him. I guess you missed the post where I explained I watched his demos and talked to TT in person at Indoor Brabant about this horse and got very little. I get TT’s marketing scheme, which is significant. I’ll got very little.

Oh please, PLEASE suggest an owner (the type you consider) that is better than me. Oh please, tell me what my market is.

[RhythmNCruise]

@J-Lu

Have YOU ever ridden and trained a very afraid horse?

Let’s be realistic. Do you think you’re a better trainer that most?

I never said I thought I was a “better trainer than most,” but I’ve been riding for over 30 years, and my first horse was a very green, very reactive, and yes, very fearful horse. The “professional” trainers that had gotten a hold of him before I got him used a 2X4 between the ears to try to cure his habit of rearing. I was a 14 year old kid with one year of riding lessons under my belt when I got this wild critter, and we were scared of each other. But he was in the budget and nearby and I wanted a horse. So I got him. And I took countless lessons with great coaches and trainers, and did ever bit of that horse’s training myself. By the time I did wind up selling him, he was a seasoned lower level event horse. I loved that horse to pieces.

Fast forward many years and one of the three horses I’ve broke and shown all on my own was a fractious QH Appendix colt. He had picked up his dam’s extremely nervous, shy disposition. She didn’t trust people at all, and neither did he. I bought him when he was a few days old, and had the luxury of bringing him and his dam to my farm so that I could begin working with him immediately. And I did. This was a colt who couldn’t handle it if more than one person at a time touched him. He hated clippers. He hated having his feet touched or handled at all. He was very reactive and fearful. I spend hours and hours and hours with him, while he was still at his dam’s side and later once he was weaned, getting him used to all of the things he didn’t like. It wasn’t always easy. He was the second horse I’d started on my own, and the first one was a breeze…born broke. Never challenged anything, just happy and calm and trusting. But not my little Appendix fella. He was a whole different ballgame. But by the time he was two years old, he stood quietly in the cross-ties for the farrier, and I could clip him (ears and all) with no fuss. And I’m not kidding when I say he was one of the toughest I’d ever had for clipping and handling feet.

The first time I put a saddle (western saddle that I break mine in) on his back, he bowed up like a bronc and went straight up, then went bucking around the round pen squealing and grunting like a wild mustang. But eventually he got over it, and he learned that the saddle wasn’t so bad. I broke him myself and never had a buck or rear out of him. Ever. Did all of his training, and he became a really neat little hunter and lower level dressage horse. Cute jumper, nice flying changes. Very athletic horse.

When we started showing, I found a new problem. He was terrified of being in a busy warm-up ring. Scared of horses coming towards him or going past him too close. To the point he’d panic and spin and try to get away. So, more hours and hours and hours, and just doing everything I could to show him it was going to be okay. Eventually he got better.

I eventually rehomed him and he went on to be a lesson horse at a little dressage and hunter barn. Packed kids around at shows.

But no, I’m not “a better trainer than most.” There are a lot of great trainers out there, and you say the ones that have worked with your horse are great. If you’re satisfied then that’s all that matters.

Good luck to you.

[oranges2016]

“i’m dismissive because I’ve already tried what most people have suggested.”

Eight pages of suggestions in this thread most that you’ve already tried and haven’t worked. And worked with professionals with this horse for six years… What I’m saying is maybe this is the horse you have and you aren’t going to change this behavior.

" Very nice to suggest selling him, but he isn’t a very sell-able horse. Rare owners could work with him. "

Didn’t suggest selling him, but finding him a new partner if the situation is not okay with you after all that you have done and are doing. Sometimes in this situation giving the horse away or selling for very little, along with full disclosure to the right person can be the best option for owner - as well as the horse. You’re right, may be a rare owner/person to find, but they are out there, assuming the horse is sound, has some quality and isn’t actually dangerous.

Sounds like you are committed to him so if you both otherwise enjoy each other, you’re making progress in your goals and the horse is comfortable in his job, thats great.

[endlessclimb]

Again, I ask. Why did you post this?

Nothing anyone says is adequate or helpful. Your trainers have tried it all. I’m sure the top riders in the world wouldn’t be able to work this out of this horse. Seen it done it tried it.

We get it.

So accept the horse as he is, even if that means a new arrangement for him. It’s absolutely not fair to him and is cruel to keep trying to jam a square peg into a round hole. It’s time to shelve your goals for him, period.

What does this horse like to do? What does he enjoy?

[IPEsq]

I finally watched the video. At no point in time was the horse connected to the handler, mentally present, or relaxed. He might not have been running off the whole time. And he might have responded appropriately to pressure at times. But he was always looking like he was ready to leave, focused outside the arena, braced in his body and neck. This horse is very sensitive and insecure. While he may know some questions and answers, he’s one that gets stuck in the sympathetic state.

I think you have to really commit to trying something like the TRT Method or Warwick Schiller’s focus for relaxation methods until he starts to show an actual mental change before you will be able to get anywhere. It won’t stop the freak outs, but it will help him reset himself after they happen. And then they might get a little smaller eventually. He will discover how to control himself a little bit. Controlling himself doesn’t mean being able to stand still.

I would not totally rule out a physical cause for why he is prone to being like this. I think there is a lot of chronic pain kind of issues that put them in this state. Plus personality/where they feel they fit in the herd. Given his level of sensitivity, I’d also 100% use ear plugs every ride. And MagRestore, vitamin E and other neuro support. That he gets spookier as you go says to me there is a real physical and possibly chemical component here.

Even horses who have some tools on how to get relaxed still have a freak out. Once you have developed the basic tools, this is an approach to how to work on the GoD.

Have I worked with a scared horse before? Let’s just say I had my guy at a show to hang out and see the sights and the steward asked if I was showing and when I said no she recommended I drug him through the rest of the week.

https://www.facebook.com/trtmethod/videos/2503118933286052/

[J-Lu]

@endlessclimb

Again, I ask. Why did you post this?

Nothing anyone says is adequate or helpful. Your trainers have tried it all. I’m sure the top riders in the world wouldn’t be able to work this out of this horse. Seen it done it tried it.

We get it.

So accept the horse as he is, even if that means a new arrangement for him. It’s absolutely not fair to him and is cruel to keep trying to jam a square peg into a round hole. It’s time to shelve your goals for him, period.

What does this horse like to do? What does he enjoy?

I was looking for relevant advice based on what was going on and what was applied in the past. Wondering if someone could offer something different.

Right, shelve him for my goals. Period. Because I’m forcing a square peg into a round hole. Riiiiiiiiiight. Thanks for your input.

[xQHDQ]

FYI, I just signed up for Tristan Tucker’s TRT program. I started working with my boy today. He seems to be enjoying it. We can’t do anything else anyway because we’re not allowed to ride.

[J-Lu]

@IPEsq

I finally watched the video. At no point in time was the horse connected to the handler, mentally present, or relaxed. He might not have been running off the whole time. And he might have responded appropriately to pressure at times. But he was always looking like he was ready to leave, focused outside the arena, braced in his body and neck. This horse is very sensitive and insecure. While he may know some questions and answers, he’s one that gets stuck in the sympathetic state.

I think you have to really commit to trying something like the TRT Method or Warwick Schiller’s focus for relaxation methods until he starts to show an actual mental change before you will be able to get anywhere. It won’t stop the freak outs, but it will help him reset himself after they happen. And then they might get a little smaller eventually. He will discover how to control himself a little bit. Controlling himself doesn’t mean being able to stand still.

I would not totally rule out a physical cause for why he is prone to being like this. I think there is a lot of chronic pain kind of issues that put them in this state. Plus personality/where they feel they fit in the herd. Given his level of sensitivity, I’d also 100% use ear plugs every ride. And MagRestore, vitamin E and other neuro support. That he gets spookier as you go says to me there is a real physical and possibly chemical component here.

Even horses who have some tools on how to get relaxed still have a freak out. Once you have developed the basic tools, this is an approach to how to work on the GoD.

Have I worked with a scared horse before? Let’s just say I had my guy at a show to hang out and see the sights and the steward asked if I was showing and when I said no she recommended I drug him through the rest of the week.

https://www.facebook.com/trtmethod/videos/2503118933286052/

Thanks. The video was when he was coming 4. He’s now 11.

I talked to TRT at Indoor Brabant about this horse, like I already mentioned on this thread. I watched his demos in person. The guy I worked with brought major changes to his mental state and I think understands behavior better and is more flexible than TT. Yes, I;ve stated that the freakouts have gotten much smaller over time, but he’s very athletic and when they happen, they happen.

Yea, sans a full body scan, my vet ruled out most things. The GP trainer I recently talked to (who helped me restart him as a 4 year old) said she has seen horses like this, and one of her GP horses (whom I know) is always spooky in one part of her arena. The horse is now 20 and retired, but still spooky. We share the same vet, so yea, I trust what I hear from people who currently/have worked with this horse.

He has the basic tools.

This horse has been to tons of QH shows to desensitize. Nothing like riding in an arena with a pony and a cart, mules, riding next to an arena with mounted shooters, working in a warm up with people bbq-ing right next to it or kids riding big wheels, riding in an arena with a truck backed up to the rail with a huge confederate flag on a windy day.

Yea, I did MagRestore and Vit E and Omega supplements.

Are you getting the picture? I’ve tried much of what has been suggested and he and I have worked with excellent trainers, farriers and vets. They think he’s unique, apparently this board can’t consider that. Oh well, I tried!

I would LOVE for someone with novel information to chime in. Yes, the “obvious stuff” has been covered like I mentioned in my first post. Sheesh!

[IPEsq]

Just because you have done some of the work doesn’t mean it’s over for this horse. He is still telling you he’s anxious. Do you have any recent video of him? The guy you showed did not accomplish much to address this kind of behavior in that session IMO.

I’m not sure what you are looking for. These methods are not quick fixes and require you to be totally present and on your game with every interaction, not just the riding. Have you been trying them for the past 7 years? Do you consistently acknowledge his mental state every moment you are handling him? Seems like not if he works himself up into exploding on the regular. Or the work causes some kind of sub-clinical (not to the point of limping) pain that puts him on a hair trigger. Or maybe you need some medical help for his mind as well.

If it was going so well with the advice you are getting IRL, why are you asking us here? Some top horses do have undesirable behaviors. They aren’t always addressed if they can do their job. But it sounds like you don’t want to ignore it. Either put in the work to address his underlying insecurity or find another horse. What was applied in the past obviously wasn’t addressing the whole picture or followed to completion.

My guy was definitely “unique” to his vets and trainers and farrier and the bystanders who gawked at our airs above the ground. But that didn’t make his behavior unchangeable. I just shared some tools I found to be helpful. But it is a long long process. Unfortunately, I didn’t quite reach the end of the process with mine because I lost him suddenly. But I did learn a lot along the way and made a lot of improvement. And yes with some less unique personalities, it’s a faster simpler process. Not saying it will be quick or easy with yours. Clearly it won’t.

[J-Lu]

@IPEsq

Just because you have done some of the work doesn’t mean it’s over for this horse. He is still telling you he’s anxious. Do you have any recent video of him? The guy you showed did not accomplish much to address this kind of behavior in that session IMO.

I’m not sure what you are looking for. These methods are not quick fixes and require you to be totally present and on your game with every interaction, not just the riding. Have you been trying them for the past 7 years? Do you consistently acknowledge his mental state every moment you are handling him? Seems like not if he works himself up into exploding on the regular. Or the work causes some kind of sub-clinical (not to the point of limping) pain that puts him on a hair trigger. Or maybe you need some medical help for his mind as well.

If it was going so well with the advice you are getting IRL, why are you asking us here? Some top horses do have undesirable behaviors. They aren’t always addressed if they can do their job. But it sounds like you don’t want to ignore it. Either put in the work to address his underlying insecurity or find another horse. What was applied in the past obviously wasn’t addressing the whole picture or followed to completion.

My guy was definitely “unique” to his vets and trainers and farrier and the bystanders who gawked at our airs above the ground. But that didn’t make his behavior unchangeable. I just shared some tools I found to be helpful. But it is a long long process. Unfortunately, I didn’t quite reach the end of the process with mine because I lost him suddenly. But I did learn a lot along the way and made a lot of improvement. And yes with some less unique personalities, it’s a faster simpler process. Not saying it will be quick or easy with yours. Clearly it won’t.

Thanks. I’ve been present for 6 years of interaction but you have little to add to the situation. I don’t think you read all of this thread. That’s fine.

As I saId, I was hoping to get some unique advice. You have no interest in understanding the situation, just casting blame.

I never said it was quick or easy, in fact, I’ve mentioned long history that it isn’t.

Thanks for your input.

[fizzyfuzzybuzzy]

So, if off the wall is what you are looking for, I’ll throw this out there. Check out EFT technique. I’ve seen some success with my hyper vigilant guy. Especially when we first started hacking outside.

[IPEsq]

Ok well here is one extension of what I did…liberty work. I don’t mean round penning. And I started on it in a paddock (which he considered his space). But I had built better connection on a line first. And some help from someone skilled in liberty work.

Another suggestion that someone mentioned—X-ray or ultrasound this horse’s neck and poll. Try a course of a substantial dose of methocarbamol, maybe he has a kind of wind up syndrome. Or hormones for the hyper vigilance.

Horse behavior is really not that complicated. And desensitization is really not the concept, so I would not have that as your goal. Especially not for this horse.

[CanteringCarrot]

@IPEsq

Ok well here is one extension of what I did…liberty work. I don’t mean round penning. And I started on it in a paddock (which he considered his space). But I had built better connection on a line first. And some help from someone skilled in liberty work.

Another suggestion that someone mentioned—X-ray or ultrasound this horse’s neck and poll. Try a course of a substantial dose of methocarbamol, maybe he has a kind of wind up syndrome. Or hormones for the hyper vigilance.

Horse behavior is really not that complicated. And desensitization is really not the concept, so I would not have that as your goal. Especially not for this horse.

Bless you for thoughtfully and kindly contributing to this thread.

Honestly, I can think of some off the wall stuff but I’m sure it’d just be dismissed or addressed rudely. So with that, I’ll move along. Best of luck, OP.

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

OP you are out of line here. IPEsq has some really great threads about what she went through trying to get her horse sound
She really has some great advice that you should consider before you blow her off.
You’ve obviously spent a lot of resources trying to figure out why your horse does what he does.
He really isnt unique in the sense that he has a behavior that no other horse has ever displayed

I get why you are defensive, no one wants to admit they’ve got a horse they love but cant figure out.

I would contact the clinician that you mentioned up thread, the one who rode him so beautifully and see if you can send your horse off to him for a few weeks and see if that will make a difference.

I understand that it may not be feasible but after all the time and money you’ve already invested it may help you decide whether you want to keep going on with this horse.

You may have to face the possibility that he will never be the safe ride you want. Hes already hurt other people, so please consider this going forward.

There is no magic bullet here.