If you avoid the GoD,does he work well? I hesitate to even ask, but how does he respond outside of an arena? I think sometimes you need to choose if it’s not the hill to die upon – can you get him back working (away from the GoD) once he’s decided the gate is going to get him? Does/will he jump? Can you lunge him near the GoD? How much long/down/round do you do per ride? There is a physiological response to lowering the head. I had to teach my high-headed Dutch Harness Horse to lower his head and would warm him up lower than I normally would because it put him in a good head space to work. Just a thought.
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Regarding carrots. Some people think it’s a sugar thing. I read a blog about a cribbing horse. Blogger stated carrots caused a cribbing response from horse and suspected sugar. I am not confident in the scientific value of that hypothesis but thought I would share.
My own horse started to develop a cribbing behavior. It’s been eliminated with constant forage access. He still licks wood some though. I don’t notice him licking wood more after eating carrots, so carrots aren’t a sugar trigger for him.
It sounds like you’ve been dealing with this for a long time and have tried a ton of things to work with him. I read your posts where you’ve done a lot of research on his nutrition. I believe you stated he’s on a ration balancer currently. I recall reading other threads where some posters experienced horses getting explosive on some brands of RB. I don’t recall if they believed the issue was a particular ingredient or some other factor. Perhaps something to explore if you haven’t already.
I know Warwick Schiller has been brought up in this thread. I subscribe to his site myself. Under saddle, dealing with spooking, one of his methods that I’ve found particularly effective is redirecting his attention. The method is simple. I notice that horse’s ears become pricked towards the gate of doom, I “pick up” inside rein and hold that bit of pressure until inside ear flicks back to me. What horse does with his body is irrelevant, I only look for the ear flick. Release inside rein when ear flicks to me. In practice, what often happens is we make a small half circle to the inside which I then complete to bring us back to the rail and proceed back towards the gate of doom. Rinse and repeat. With repetition, I find my horse becomes very responsive to that mild increase of pressure from inside rein and will flick his ear to me almost immediately. It seems to break the cycle of the spook. You posted earlier about being aware of where his ears were pointing to, so you obviously have the necessary awareness to effectively use this exercise. You might give it a try.
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My last guy was hyper-vigilant. I’ve also ridden several quick brained horses. They are not easy. Ear plugs can really help with focus. And ground work. Including using a flag. But I don’t mean chase him with it. Train him that it’s a tool like a whip or rope or anything else and it can apply pressure or not. He can control that pressure. Current horse is terrified of flags and doesn’t much like whips either, but we are working on it to get him more focused on the small aids.
The TRT method and some of Warwick Schiller’s methods help with focus, relaxation, and confidence. Your horse lacks at least the first two. The spin move suggests he lacks the third at least at times where his anxiety gets amped. These methods help to teach them to get out of the sympathetic nervous system state. And they also learn to look to you for guidance. They finally learn to control themselves when they start to get uneasy. It’s really a neuro rewiring kind of technique. I think sometimes as you get your horse more responsive in the work, if they have a tendency to be a bit fight/flight, you will get that response as well. Common on ones that are hyper-vigilant. And then they forget about you and go into every man for himself mode. These methods help them take a second to check in and think and process and breathe. It can be challenging to get the same focus from the saddle as you can get from the ground, but the TRT method helps to teach them a posture of relaxation and movement patterns to get there. This you can tap into from the saddle that helps them redirect their focus.
You might also in your work need to take some stretchy breaks or something similar to help him reset. This is not stop and rest when he gets anxious but have him go in a posture that relaxes the nervous system. This isn’t necessarily a loose rein either if that makes him feel lost/confused, although with the ground work, he should start learning to manage himself without the contact. But you can have just a longer frame and work on some bending lines, for example. Don’t forget that the other work is hard and may cause some mental stress or anxiety. Give these breaks before the spooking.
It’s a good time to watch a lot of videos at home. I’d suggest the TRT program and maybe starting with Warwick’s series with the Oldenburg eventing mare. As well as some of his recent videos on creating connection and relaxation through focus work.
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GREAT! My farrier doesn’t think he has a pain issue but an adverse reaction to the act/pressure of nailing. He’s the top farrier in the area. My horse’s former farrier said the same thing.
Thank you! I always walk him towards the GoD after mounting to see what his mental state is. Today, it was very windy but he was OK. I’ve paid attention to his allergies and the type of pollen and count this year to identify his allergies. He definitely has them, as snot has come out of his nose and I regularly clear his eye corners from mucus. He started an oral allergen today. Perhaps his allergies spark his disinterest in work, we’ll see.
@fizzyfuzzybuzzy , yes, he does work well if we avoid the GoD if he’d particularly looking for things to spook at. Did I mention I have grazed him in this space but he freaked when I turned him out in this space? I have longed him near and far from the GoD, there’s tension but not a big deal, because I think he can see me, and he can’t when I’m on his back. Do you have comments on this?
Yes, we have schooled jumps. He’s fine with this.
He prefers to travel with his head up, I encourage and reward him moving more “down” and over his back except when he’s working collection. There, I expect his withers to come up into my crotch. He gets this, and this is our normal “working” posture. But I do have to regularly maintain it because he wants to lift his head and look around regularly. A steady bit connection doesn’t mean much to him right now because he’s battling the idea of using his back and the idea of lookng around (hypervigilance). This is an ongoing issue in his talented brain.
Please, keep the feedback coming! Thank you all!
I know you have already had his back examined but did your vet examine his neck?
You posted that he likes to travel with his head up and doesn’t like to use his back.
He may not have KS or SI issues but not wanting to use his back and wanting to travel with his head up may indicate something going on with his neck.
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My guy is much better with me in the ground too. I think it’s less about whether he can see me or not (he knows that I’m up there! :lol: ) but that there is something between him and the thing that is scaring him. If my trainer stands in the scary corner, it’s much less scary. It doesn’t have to be me. Have you ever decided that today, if the GoD is scary, we aren’t going to address it? We’re going to work in the areas that aren’t scary. If he likes to travel with his head up, he’s pumping himself full of adrenaline. I had to teach my guy a cue to lower his head, and we sometimes ride with his head lower than is 100% correct. But he can think in that body posture and work through some of the anxiety.
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No, we only radiographed withers to loin.
Today, I had a “virtual lesson” with a great YH trainer and GP rider whom I really like, and who gave us lessons when he first arrived. She stopped due to pregnancy, and said “I can’t ride a horse like him when pregnant”. But I’ve been a demo rider for her USDF trainer training classes and she is a very accomplished and active trainer. Her mother trained the Natural Horsemanship trainer out of the barn and recommended him to me. Her mother has sat on all sorts of USDF boards.
She says she’s had horses in training like him and owns a horse she brought to GP like him (now semi-retired at 20 but still spooks in the same place in the arena). She suggested he may always be be reactive at the GoD - it’s his nature - and gave me another set of things to try to allow him to process better. She liked my spurs (recommended spurs), and suggested I respect that there’s something about the Gate of Doom he can’t handle and cut the corner as long as I’m riding my line. She says there are some horses you can’t force into corners and mine is one of them, you have to evaluate his mental state at any given ride. I said I want to avoid the hospital and she thinks my strategies are smart given his “unique” self. Her words.
She knows much of the medical history of this horse and I filled her in on more (we use the same vet), she thinks the problem is mostly between his ears due to his specific behaviors. She gave me some approaches to riding by the GoD, most of which I already do, but I’ll be more cognizant of this.
Thanks!
I always make him travel between me and the Gate of Doom. He has a good education in groundwork. He has to “go first” between me and the gate at all gaits, and if I point at his shoulder with the whip (even a dressage whip), his attention is on me and not what’s beyond the gate. He can’t bend to the outside.
Oh heck yes, I often think “do I want to go to the hospital today” and if the answer is no, I ride in the proximal part of the arena. He has to work some when I’m riding, and I balance the conditions under which we can get actual work done.
Yes, I will but him behind the bit rather than let him go with his head up. Make him round and over his back. He’s not a horse that being behind the vertical will ever really be a problem for, but it gives me more control over his back and he relaxes more. When relaxed, we immediately go to the vertical. Yup, he wants to raise his head, stiffen his neck, hollow his back and look. Recipe for disaster! I don’t let him do this as much as I can help it. If he’s really freaked out, I let him raise his head and look, because applying aids is overdrive to his mind. His mind has to be settled to apply aids. Did I say I call him MR. 90%? He quickly learns what gets him out of work, so I have to be very aware of enforcing aids and giving him time to process info he needs to process. It’s a fine line we deal with.
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I’m glad you get some good advice and help from a trainer you like, @J-Lu .
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I haven’t posted since I didn’t have advice since you’ve tried so much already. But I hope you will update you with how things go and let us know what works. I have a horse that sounds more low key than yours but he is developing a Gate of Doom. It’s the opening of the indoor arena. During the day isn’t too scary but it was open a few times at night and the sounds out there really spooked him. Now he’s always “looking behind his back” when we pass the gate. And he’s one that you have to be careful not to amp up when he’s already scared.
Good luck, I hope it have success with this!
My horse’s spooks are the same. He’s too sensitive in the mouth to bolt, but will stop and spin if he feels he needs to take evasive action.
In the interest of staying out of the ER (even before this pandemic) I started tying my donkey at The Other End, which was all Mr. Spooky needed to be able to go right to work. He still likes to look a few times, which is fine by me, but then when he sees that the donkey is relaxed he relaxes.
I started doing this years ago, and now that the donkey is gone I tie other horses down there, and that works even better than the donkey because more of his friends are down there munching hay.
There are more days that he doesn’t need other horses than days that he does, but now that I’m not going to shows anymore there’s no good reason not to set things up so that we’re all comfortable.
I was at a show one time and my horse’s older half brother, ridden by a pro, was entered. It was held indoors so the warmup was in the same area where the tests were ridden. This horse went in with many other horses to warm up and was calm, relaxed, and looked great, but then when it was time for his test and he went in by himself his rider couldn’t get him to go into the corners or near the mirrors at the other end. She spurred and yanked and the horse just got more and more worked up, as horses do, and then needed to put even more distance between the things he wasn’t sure about and himself.
What was interesting is when I commented that he was a lot less spooky when the other horses were in there with him the trainer poopoo’d that idea and said that he was just a jerk.
A great idea! I could open the gate to the playground and let the pasture horses (whose gate is about 50 feet from the GoD) come up to the riding gate. In the past he was just agitated that horses were in the playground because they normally weren’t, but it might be worth a try. I can shoo them out quickly after the ride if they choose to come into the playground. No one thinks he’s a jerk, just a super sensitive horse. I’d challenge that connotation from my trainer. Have you ever challenged that to your trainer? Most horses have a reason to do what they do, whether we recognize it or not. It seems like you discovered a fine solution to your horse’s insecurity. My horse is mostly OK with other horses in the arena, but it often doesn’t solve the problem of the Gate of Doom.
@Lunabear1988 , I think this might just be who he is. sigh. Want a Westfalen? Cheap price for you! (I’m kidding, he’s rarely a jerk, just a massive scaredy-cat, has good gaits and is too sweet on the ground to sell. And who would put up with him? Who would scratch his navel and croup because it is itchy from fly bites? Did I mention he has his own back scratcher for use in the summer when itchy? Can you see the “S” for sucker emblazoned on my forehead from there?)
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A friend had a horse like this. Reactive to the point of dangerous and she had everything done with him, even a bone scan to see if there was anything that could lead to pain. NH trainers, very respected trainers but he just had this freak out mode and nothing could stop it and no one could work o it what triggered it.
Out of pure exasperation, the vet suggested a course of Rakelin (resperine). Full dose for a month and then tapered off over the course of 6 months.
Whether it balanced something going on in his head that wasn’t quite right, or the sedative effect, but he just learnt to cope with life in general and not have his insane meltdowns over nothing.
It may be a little over the top, but it worked for this horse. He was always sharp but he lost the meltdowns and learnt the life at his gate of doom really wasn’t that bad and that he could cope with it.
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Thank you so much! Yesterday, I took the advice after riding him on a very windy (spooky) day to longe him in side reins up and down the arena and we did tons of work in both directions in front of the Gate of Doom. The side reins functioned to make him use his back. Yes, he spooked 3 times, at the beginning, middle and end of the session, but nothing big and he worked well in repetition at this scary place. Culd this be an approach you take to show that scary entrance or no, you still have to work over your back?
Today I rode and mostly avoided that end of the arena at gaits faster than the walk because the neighbor was mowing his lawn and people were walking by on the road (slamming on the breaks in a shoulder in), but the rest of the ride was great, in large part to using very vocal praise when he was afraid (advice of video trainer) and Eliza Sydnor Romm’s advice. It seemed to work. Work at the proximal end led to fantastic trot and canter work. His gaits were suuuper in the scary places, but I know he wasn’t comfy.
I’m getting good advice for this unique horse and I’m happy to tell you what works and doesn’t. I don’t think many people understand how to train a unique horse, which is why I respond to most people. I have a unique horse, “common” approaches don’t work even with the best of trainers. And yes, I’ve worked with really great trainers (and I’m quite picky). The good trainers I have worked with concur that this is a unique horse. I have been trying to get advice on this board relevant to THIS horse. This horse and I have formed an amazing partnership, for example, we can groom each other and he very much listens to me, but he’s sooooooo reactive to things happening around him.
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“We groom each other” as far as I know is a big No No and a red flag for me for your “partnership”.
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@J_lu I’m glad you had a better ride using some different tactics. I commend you for not giving up and trying out so many things.
The one thing I’ve learned about the horse world is there are so many ideas and opinions. For better or worse. Animals don’t read the textbooks so we do sometimes need to get creative.
I haven’t yet worked my horse in side reins but do possible need to start adding that in. He’s learning about it undersaddle but I think occasionally on the lunge would help. He’s actually more focused undersaddle and more confident typically. But I am not riding right now bc of COVID19 so I haven’t seen if the gate of Doom will be an issue. I know on the ground it can be a real issue. He tries but still wants to speed up and look behind him when going past. It’ll be interesting to see how he is when riding past it. He does respond well to the use of the voice as well, I think I’m vocal riding than on the ground.
Hope it continues to go well.
In red: You’re avoiding what scares him. With many horses, it makes them more scared because he thinks you’re scared too - you’re validating him.
You do you, just pointing that out.
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Yes, but that is on the advice from the trainer I just had a virtual lesson with. She specialized in Young Horses but has ridden to GP, trained with all sorts of big names including her mother, and helped me restart him as a turning 4 year old. She has seen him in action. I tried her advice. Her advice was basically NOT to “push” horses like this into scary corners, give them good rides that they’re confident with. The more confident they are in themselves, you can push the limits of where they don’t want to go. This keeps the rides positive and doesn’t constantly put the horse in a part of the arena he thinks he’s unconfident with until he’s equipped to deal with it. This horse has gone in this arena for 6 years, does similar things under other riders. Sometimes he’s OK, mostly not. There is NOTHING that changes much beyond the GoD. I’ve never avoided what scares him. He has been lunged in this area, walked in and out of the Gate of Doom in hand and under saddle, walked in and out of the far pasture beyond the gate of doom, grazed around the GoD, talked endlessly with peeps at the GoD to the point that he wanted to sleep, dismounted at the GoD, etc. to make him have good associations. At the end of the day, you have to deal with the horse that comes out that day. And he was good not feeling “pushed” into what he thought was the scary area under saddle. Good meaning he was relatively relaxed over his back and listening to my aids, even when a bit worried.
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He has had a lot of experience in side reins, but I don’t always longe him in them (actually, I haven’t for years). Honestly, I usually free-longe him with no tack or halter in the arena because he knows the approximate distance and is great with verbal and body language cues. I used side reins because he likes to go with his head up and a concave back when moving near things he feels he needs to look at. The side reins say 1) no, you have to use your back and 2) fight all you want, you’re fighting against yourself and you’ll figure that out and 3) Don’t think about fighting with my hands, I’ll be like the side reins. I use side reins with a rubber “O” for give and I don’t make them very tight at all. But they aren’t loose. They’re at a training level frame. I longed him in both directions and called for transitions at the GoD when he was comfy going past. This gave him something else to think about at the gate. He got voice support (good boy) and downward transitions at the gate if he was still running after a couple of times going by, and he kept going until he didn’t. I used a longe whip (pointing at the shoulder) and verbal command "stay ooouuuttt) if he tried to cut in (he knows these cues). I do 3 gaits, change of direction, 3 gaits, change of direction, rinse, repeat. He stops when he’s calm past the gate and paying attention to me. Of note, he always has an ear on the gate. Also of note, this is a horse who longed himself in a tizzy and into hyperthermia years ago so I never longe him “until he’s calm” if he can’t get calm. It’s up to me to judge his welfare. These days, he’s old enough to figure out how to conserve his energy and say “fiiiiiiiine” on the longe line, even if he spooks. If he’s not seriously spooking or riled up, he’s all about conserving energy!
Thanks!
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