No need to be rude. I’m not the one coming to the internet about my horse despite all the BNTs.
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And yet you feel the need to respond despite your non professional trainer experience. And you wish to mock the BNTs I’ve worked with. Just stop.
I’m out of ideas, but if you ever do find something that works, I’d love to know. (That is not sarcastic.) I’m always looking for new training techniques to put in my tool box.
I believe methocarbamol was suggested to break the pattern you are stuck in–not as a lifelong “supplement”. Think of this as something like spinal cord windup, which is how one of my vets describes it. Causing an inability to keep him from periodically getting stuck in the sympathetic nervous system. He might be there most of the time but you just don’t notice until he starts to get out of his comfort zone. Considering his comfort zone seems pretty small at times, I wouldn’t rule this out. It could just take a course of it in conjunction with the training to change course.
I have more pictures of my problem horse laying flat out asleep than doing anything else. You also say yours is genuinely worried when the episodes happen. He can have a problem controlling himself when he gets stressed to the point he’s just in self preservation mode. He can also be chill the other 99% of the time. And he could need a stomach buffer or other chemical help to break these patterns. These things are not mutually exclusive.
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Good luck!
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This OP is what you see when they have not learned and do not completely believe the first rule of horse riding.
It is never the horse’s fault.
This OP believes that “they and all their real life BNT’s have done everything correctly and the reason it has not worked is because of horse being a special snowflake” is an example of blaming the horse.
Nothing will change until the OP changes their whole mindset and listens to the horse and incidentally grooming each other and sending a horse out to lunge without even a halter on it is not in the list of what is meant by listening to a horse.
If you look at most of the train wrecks on COTH with people trying to help being attacked, it is because the first rule is not really and truly believed in all its contexts.
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I had the same thought. If this was a first time poster they would have been shredded for lashing out over not liking the answers.
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And the second rule is: you never stop learning - ie, you don’t know it all.
Good luck, OP. I hope at some point the horses opinion on things is taken into account, pride is set to the side, and with that it brings success.
I know for me, if the horse hated the job I wanted for him, no matter how talented, I’d change gears. That’s what a horseman does - listen to their partner.
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The magnesium level doesn’t have to be suboptimal.
it could be his utilization of is not getting it where it needs to go.
Just because he eats it, doesn’t mean it gets where it needs to go, or in an amount he needs to fix the issue.
Which you know… So why poo poo it?
What does Outlast have to do with ration balancers?
" Purina Outlast® Gastric Support Supplement is formulated to support gastric health and proper pH. It is estimated that up to 90 percent of active horses experience gastric discomfort, a*ffecting health, attitude and performance. Common activities including stall confinement, exercise, transportation, weaning and few environments such as events and shows are known to cause stress and gastric discomfort. Purina® Outlast® Gastric Support Supplement was developed by our Ph.D. Equine Nutritionists to support a healthy gastric environment."
Why not try a few more things like mag or the Outlast? Isn’t that why you wrote the OP? For ideas?
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@J-Lu It has been over a month since you posted this thread. I went back and read your original post to remember what the initial issues were. At that time, you’d had some recent incidents with the horse being spooky, including a time you had to bail off of him.
I’m just wondering how the riding has been going over this past month since you started the thread? Any progress?
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Hi J-Lu,
First I want to thank you for your clear scientific and medical posts about the COVID-19 pandemic. The fact that you can think that clearly in the midst of having problems with your horse is impressive, better than I could do at least.
I’ve been thinking back to the two super reactive horses I’ve ridden/trained. The one who acts the most like you describe your horse is an Arabian gelding, super, super, super vigilant at all times though he does seem to calm down a bit when turned out in his paddock with his buddy.
This Arab’s equivalent of your horse’s Gate of Doom (I love that description) is the horrible, horrible, absolutely horrible judges stand that is next to the ring. His owner/my riding teacher said he was around earlier when the stand was being built with power tools and even over a decade later he just.does.not.trust the judge’s stand at all and he tenses up just about every time he goes past it. He could go by it without reacting several times, then the next time BOOM he was bolting, ALWAYS after he passed the judge’s stand. I finally talked my way up onto his back (I had the only saddle in that stable that truly fit-a treeless) and I had the same results. After riding past this horrible, evil, madly attacking judge’s stand many times I finally realized something. Whether this horse would bolt or not after passing the judges stand depended upon which part of his eye he saw the judges stand, if he saw the judge’s stand behind him in a certain part of his eye he would bolt, if he saw it with another part of his eye he would pass much more quietly. Just lifting his head would bring the judge’s stand into focus at the scary part of his eye. Since he is an Arabian bringing his head up is super easy, and every time he raises his head the view from behind changes, and anything, especially anything that flutters, can cause a bolt.
I got him a pair of the Dy’on leather blinkers. The bolting from what he saw behind him stopped.
However he was still super, super, super vigilant about everything in front of him and on both sides of him. I had stopped riding him (my medical issues) and my riding teacher/his owner still complained how, out of the trail and in the ring, he would still fixate on anything that was out of the “normal” and often reacted suddenly and forcefully to many perceived “possibly dangerous” things around him. He would go around LOOKING for stuff to shy at, eternally vigilant, always scanning his environment for anything that could possibly look like an attack may be coming.
I started searching the web for solutions, and I found one, the Fenwick Face Mask (I got the one with the ear covering so we would not have to do a separate fly bonnet.) This turned out to be the second game changer for this horse, when he wore it he perceived the universe much more calmly. If my riding teacher forgot to put it on this horse went right back to being super vigilant, reacting forcefully to things that he would ignore when he had his face mask on. It took several rides for my riding teacher to learn to never forget the face mask if she wanted a peaceful (relatively) ride out on the trails. With the face mask on the horse focused on his rider instead of everything around him, proceeding calmly down the trails and not fixating on all the possible dangers out to kill or maim him.
However he was still fussy with the bit and would not completely relax into good contact. After much experimentation my riding teacher finally found the bit he would consent to act civilized in, a ported Kimberwick, but she was still “complaining” about him not fully accepting contact. I found a titanium coated ported Kimberwick and he improved greatly with his contact.
I think that a lot of horses have a minor allergy to the metals used to make steel into stainless steel, nickel and chromium, and that this minor allergy makes the mouth super sensitive and the bit feel a lot more painful. Titanium is neutral biologically and does not cause an allergic reaction, and all the horses I’ve tried the titanium bits have shown a remarkable preference to the titanium bits over exactly the same bit in stainless steel.
I know that in dressage a Kimberwick is not an acceptable bit. But with other horses (a 7/8 Arab mare and a Paso Fino mare) who bolted compulsively I had very good results with the double bridle. The Paso Fino mare settled right down with two bits in her mouth. With the 7/8 Arab mare it took me six months of basic training, double bridle and standing martingale, until I could take the martingale off forever and ride her safely in a regular snaffle bit, but she stopped bolting and trying to run away and she was safe to ride thereafter in a snaffle.
I have a hypothesis that some horses take great comfort in feeling the curb chain just sitting in their curb groove. I do not ride with contact on the curb bit when in the double bridle, at the most I just tweak the curb reins for a rein aid. Some horses just seem to be calmer when wearing a bit that has a curb chain/strap even if I never really “activate” the curb bit. Since double bridles ARE eventually “legal” for showing dressage this is something that will not get you weird looks from other people, and it might give your horse something else to think about than all the super scary stuff around that is guaranteed to kill or maim him in his imagination.
I really hope that you find something that works soon.
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My gelding with ulcers confirmed by scope has only ever been fed 24/7 hay and or grazing grass based on the season and a ration balancer. Since your horse is naturally a very “worried” horse I think this suggestion is for something to help support his stomach since worrying may pre-dispose him to ulcers or an upset stomach
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You know, something I wonder is if scientists (I’m a ChemE, so I’m in this group) don’t make as good of trainers without additional work, because our professions are based so heavily on logic.
Except here, logic isn’t the driver - it’s emotion. STEM people aren’t naturally going to turn to emotion to solve a problem, because that’s not how we were trained. We have to consciously think in a more emotion-based pattern. That take introspective, conscious effort.
Just musing about the situation OP has found herself in here.
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BBM. Yikes! :eek:
What’s your hesitation to have a bone scan done? Especially after you indicated he is more likely to be set off during collected work, and say you have not imaged his neck, it seems like a logical diagnostic to pursue. I had one done at Cornell for about $2k.
It sounds like you have spent and continue to spend a lot of money on training, including multi-day and week-long clinics, maybe redirect some of that towards a scan? What you find, and sometimes even more so what you don’t find, could better inform your next steps.
Good luck.
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FWIW, I’ve found the optimum dose of MagRestore for a larger horse in harder work is 4 scoops a day (I feed 2 scoops 2x a day). This isn’t out of the range of the instructions but it is higher than their recommended maintenance dose. Maybe that has to do with my environment (it was not around when I lived elsewhere in the country), can’t say. But when I did the loading dose, I saw a positive change. When I tried backing off of that, might as well have fed nothing, so back up to 4 scoops we went. Didn’t seem to cause any digestive upset. I’d also fed other forms of Mg in the past and based on how they were presented (sometimes in a combo supplement), I don’t know if they didn’t work for my horse because of different bioavailability or if I never got the dose right.
@IPEsq, yes I was suggesting some of these supplements as a short-term solution to break a long-standing pattern of behavior.
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Can’t remember if I mentioned any of them specifically, but I can give several examples of this sort of panic reaction and inexplicable spooking that were linked to neck issues. And some somewhat similar cases as far as getting worse as you go that were kissing spines.
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This is what I think in hindsight about the horse I mentioned up thread that would start spooking at a tree mid ride I hate thinking about it because I didn’t know, and so therefore didn’t do anything but stop riding him eventually.
I’m not a pro though so my ideas are worth what one pays.
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Never used to be a thing even on my radar. Neither would ulcers enough years ago. There’s always something more to learn.
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Something totally different - what about clicker training?
I used it with great success on a tough young mare I had - it was brilliant for trailer loading, back leg handling, clipping etc. I also used it to make her solid at the mounting block but didn’t do anything further under saddle - but people do.
It’s a totally different approach and might help break through the cycle of spooking & tenseness.
Having suggested that, I’d also think that either there’s something physical going on or a mental issue. The fact that he’s been a tough horse his entire working life makes me think the chances of getting it resolved now aren’t great.
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