No. For some horses it isn’t as linear as you think. Trainers know that. Good trainers know of ways to develop non-linear horses.
1 Like
He used to be turned out with buddies. Situation 1 was good, situation 2 was good and we specifically had an experienced mare turned out with him because they youngsters would sleep at the same tiime, situation 3 was good until the “rescue” buddy became problematic. He was put into his own pasture with buddies on either side for a while. He has been tried with other horses as buddies, but he was fine until feeding time. He pinned a large mustang to the fence, who could have pummeled him with her huge hooves, and they had to be separated. He shares a run-in with a buddy (I’ve mentioned this) and hangs with buddies on the other side. His buddies have been stable, and his life is really good.
I’m sorry if this considered “poo-poo”, but he stretches down during every ride. We do trail rides with a more confident horse who has definitely gotten him across water.
Yes, “pressure” is an integral part. Yet, I can ride on a loose rein and he can spook and whirl without contact. But he “picks up” when the work gets harder. He gets genuinely less secure sometimes, not always. I can’t figure out what is going on in his mind to tell the difference. Seemingly none of my unqualified trainers can figure this out also. It took me DAYS to get this horse tolerant to being with cows! Seriously, when they first arrived, he stood for HOURS at the fence in giraffe position. Didn’t graze, didn’t lower his head, didn’t drink, he stood like a statue for HOURS staring at the cows! It took me HOURS of working him around cows. Now, I can back him into their grouping. We trained on a cow-training apparatus, but he just doesn’t have the moves of a QH and the easiest steer get away.
I get him to relax by letting him look at the scary things and then audibly breathing in and out. He will breath out after me when he’s ready. That’s a large release for him.
THANK YOU for your advice and comments.
1 Like
How do you know the headshaking is not related? It’s a neuro problem. Spookiest horse I know at the moment has a difficult case of headshaking and is erratic and seems to “randomly” overreact to and spook at things. It has caused a big road block in his training, and he is in full training with a rider who has developed several GP horses from the beginning.
Yes, my horse was smart too. Of course it’s anticipation. That is another expression of this same type of stress that leads to the spooking. It could also be a symptom of anxiety. And that anxiety could be related to a physical issues. Like neck issues. My horse is not the only one with neck issues I’ve seen fit into that pattern. It can also be caused by SI issues (which he also had and I’ve seen the same enough times in other horses), and I think that’s more common. Kissing spines would be third on that list and 4th would be feet,l or front coffin joints, but I know you have at least ruled out KS. The anticipation of canter is not such a problem if the horse is truly confused on the aids. If there is a big anxiety type behavior with it, there is likely pain. The second reason if not pain would be that the horse has been over faced but I think that’s less likely in your case, although still possible.
Yes I checked some older posts based on what others said. These two behaviors stood out to me among a fair amount of problems as being highly likely to be related to your gate issue.
6 Likes
How do I know? It’s an isolated neuro problem, it’s physiology knowing the nerves involved is easy to predict.
Yea, my horse isn’t your horse with your horse’s issues.
Please explain how my previous posts related to the gate issue and exactly how you relate these issues together. I guess it it “poo poo” to tell you the things not posted on COTH. Again, you assume there is pain. Or is overfaced. That’s the extent of your reply. Thanks for your reply.
1 Like
I think I’ve gotten the extent I’ll get out of COTH members, thanks. Please, tell me again how my trainers are terrible.
I’ll sure check back to debunk pet theories, also known as “poo-pooing” peoples’s advice.
Thank you for the invitation, I accept, after covid 19 is over and you pay for flights, accomodation and food for 2 months and travel to and from the horse and I am allowed to feed, lunge and ride him, lunging as I and your instructor, have said.
You may find that is more expensive than the vet examination you said was too expensive.
It might be cheaper to send the horse here but Quarantine is pretty brutal in Australia and also costly and AFAIK no international flights are allowed into Australia at the moment.
Lunging him yourself in side reins and more than once will cost you zero dollars.
5 Likes
QFP
Hi J-Lu.
I have another thing that I use with spooky horses, BUT this worked on horses that did not have your horse’s particular type of bolt, in fact the lack of a bolt was a distinguishing characteristic of these horses. I’m mostly putting this in for the sake of the other people reading this thread to learn new and different possible solutions for horse/human problems.
For a few years I rode this old Arab mare, who was “freezing” into place from arthritis. After months of gently asking her to lengthen her stride slightly and finding an effective supplement that she would eat and she started to loosen up, I finally felt like I could address her other main problem. This mare, ANYTIME anything was new in her environment, anytime anything was moved in the ring, and anytime that the weather changed (different barometric pressures change everything–who knew) this mare would “startle”, freeze, and get her whole body set up to run away from danger especially if I tried to prevent that with the reins.
In my search for help I came across the modern Beery site, Horse Training Resources, and read a synopsis of a training video by a Western trainer. He said that it often paid off to just sit still on the horse and count to ten when the horse got frightened about something in his environment. In another video synopsis another trainer said that she always figured that, particularly when something is introduced, that the horse’s nervous system was set up so that it took up to 4 seconds for the horse to notice the aid, process the aid in their brain, and then respond to the aid.
So I talked with my riding teacher. At that time Mia (the old Arab mare) would slam on the brakes whenever she noticed anything different in the ring. Her head would come up, she would ignore the rein aids, and she was obviously tensing up and getting ready to GET OUT OF THERE!!! She never bolted, but I could FEEL her getting ready to bolt.
So after talking with my riding teacher who was curious to see how this would affect the mare, every time Mia noticed something new, swung her head up and tense up, I relaxed my aids and slackened the reins and I counted slowly to 10, then I would use my legs to tell her to move on by. Sometimes I had to count to 15 slowly before she would glance away from the horrible new thing, then she would obey my leg aid and move on.
The first time doing this I probably counted to 10 ten to fifteen times. Through the ensuing months I counted to 10 A LOT. But after a month or so she started accepting some of the new stuff, and I had to spend less time counting to 10. Several years later when I stopped riding her she had changed from a fearful horse to an accepting horse, by doing all those counts to 10 I had allowed her to learn HOW to process new stuff and come to the correct conclusion, that this new thing would not eat her up and was not dangerous at all. At the end I just had to count to 10 maybe once every three months even when the ring was changed around frequently. She had learned to deal with it effectively in her brain.
J-Lu, I do not think this will work with your horse’s bolting, especially in response to stuff behind him. This did not stop the bolting of my riding teacher’s crazy Arab bolter. He did relax a bit more with new stuff, if it was not too overwhelming for his delicate nervous system, if it was in front of him when I went still in the saddle and counted to 10 before I gave a leg aid to move forward past the terrifying place. My riding teacher said he became a bit less reactive on the trail. But to stop the bolting I had to put the Dy’on blinkers on him, and for his brain to process stimuli effectively my riding teacher still has to use the Fenwick Face Mask with Ears, which is why I did not describe this technique before.
Good luck with your horse.
And again THANK YOU for all your discussions about COVID-19, they were instrumental for me figuring out exactly what I have to do so I do not become sick with this virus right now.
4 Likes
I did explain if you read my posts. Things related to freaking out at the gate of doom, but only sometimes, and usually only after he’s been working for a bit…
-
Known neuro issues - The spooky headshaker I mentioned (not my horse) will randomly have hard spooks at mostly nothing but often at the gate and it looks like a brief electric shock when he does it–he is not super naughty. Also tends to get wound up in work and anxious. All of that has improved with better control of the headshaking after years of trying to find something that helped him, even having a CT scan. Horse has upper level potential as far as his athletic ability and is with a capable trainer but hasn’t made it there after years due to unpredictability of his behavior caused by the headshaking syndrome, year round, indoors and out.
-
Unknown neuro issues - neck involvement is a possibility, not yet ruled out. There have been enough posts here on this. You can find more in horse care.
-
Pain somewhere that doesn’t result in lameness - The bad behaviors that come from this can run the gamut. Seems likely given horse’s state of anxiety when ridden and that the spooking gets worse the more he works. You have ruled some of the possible causes out, but there could be something else; see neck, above.
-
Anxiety, anxiety, anxiety. This horse expresses anxiety with teeth grinding, with his posture, with physical tension, with a hyper-vigilant awareness, with anticipation, with his mind running like hamsters on the wheel, and with extreme level spooking. Can be caused by training, neuro issues, hormones/brain chemistry (posted about that before), or pain (skeletal, internal, neuro, or muscular – think with muscular might be something like MFM but he’s on the young side to tell with that), or all of the above with some factors likely affecting him more than others but it’s hard to figure that out if you haven’t identified any of them.
7 Likes
I’m genuinely curious why you posted looking for advice in the first place?
11 Likes
This is interesting and timely, as just today it was once again an episode of “Adventures in Spookiness” for me and my appy gelding. Like yours, mine doesn’t have the bolt (or buck or rear, thank goodness). I can ride him through his spooks, and today we reached an impasse (literally) when did a series of “freeze-backup-spin a rounds” on a ten-foot wide (if that) path between a fence and a big ditch. I finally got him to the place where he’d just stand and stare (and not back and spin), and about ten minutes later, we finally were able to get past it. “It” was two landscaping trucks and trailers that have never been there before. Along with the blustery and unseasonably chilly wind that was nonstop, and the mowers buzzing around the field where we were attempting to ride, it was just too much for him today.
But, as I said, we got past it, and we honest to goodness had one of the best rides we’ve ever had following the incident. Then, on the way back to the barn (different way than we came) the wind was howling, tree branches were whipping around in our faces, someone’s big garbage can across the street had blown over (Horrors!), and just as he was trying his best to deal with all of that, a really loud truck came by followed by not one but THREE “crotch rockets”…ZOOM!..ZOOM!..ZOOM!.…and with each ZOOM! he got more and more in a twist. Thankfully all he did was kind of canter in place sideways for a few strides until all of the nonsense had past, and then we were back on the buckle, moseying home.
I’m investigating my own gelding’s recent uptick in spooky behavior, because it is a bit annoying. He’s actually worse in the barn than anywhere…we’ve been at this place 7 months and he still doesn’t trust the barn. He’s improving though, because I’m spending a butt-load of time working with him on the issue. And that’s kind of the lesson I learned today with my guy. It takes a lot of work and patience. One would assume my gelding should be settled into this barn/farm by now…it’s been 7 months. And honestly, until recently he has been ultra chill (once the initial settling in phase was over). This is a new phenomenon.
And the one thing that has changed? His workload has increased. How 'bout that?
5 Likes
-
His headshaking predated spookiness. He has always been spooky and looky to a large magnitude. Even before I got him. He’s currently on cyproheptadine, which takes care of the allergies as well.
-
He’s not always spooky and can be very relaxed. Often, when one picks up the reins he looks for things to spook at. He’s not lame. He works through this very well. I figured out why he bucks when saddled. He can still occasionally exhibit behavior but backs way down when I tell him “oph no, oh no you don’t”. he complies.
He’s not always anxious when ridden, he “drops” his penis when saddled, not the behaviour of a stressed horse. He can be very relaxed under saddle. He is often very relaxed until “something” external makes him not relaxed.
We’ve figures out his teeth grinding, he does it when he’s relaxed. Being groomed before and after a ride.He LOVES being groomed and LOVES human contact.
1 Like
I’m trying to find any source citing bruxism as a sign of relaxation and coming up empty. 
4 Likes
I rode an OTTB that only ground his teeth when off contact, on contact he stopped grinding his teeth.
I stumbled by and wanted to raise my hand to this as well. We never found out if it was a comfort/discomfort response. what was it for your horse?
1 Like
This horse was one that my riding teacher had bought rather recently.
The only bit this horse had accepted at all was a 20mm thick stainless steel single jointed eggbutt snaffle, but when off contact it was grind, grind, grind, until I got the impression that he was trying to reduce the bit to its constituent molecules.
When I used the titanium coated “rainbow” snaffles he chewed less (double jointed, mullen mouth) but he did NOT really “like” these bits.
After I stopped riding him for a few months I checked in (still grinding) and I bought the horse the same bit that he liked but as a titanium coated “rainbow” 20mm single jointed eggbutt snaffle. The only difference between the two bits was the metal they were made from. I think (I have not gotten to quiz his riders) that he no longer grinds this new bit, or at least he does not do it constantly. I did overhear one of his riders when she was riding him in the ring say “he really likes this colored bit.” (The “rainbow” bits are colorful, warning, not all rainbow bits are titanium coated, some are just stainless steel.)
I now think that some horses have an allergic reaction to one of the alloying metals in the stainless steel (chromium, nickel.) If they do, and it is a minor allergy, my hypothesis is that this mild allergic reaction makes the tissues of the horse’s mouth more sensitive to the bit, increasing problems with the bit and with bit acceptance.
2 Likes
Because I thought people would read my posts and narrow their thoughts. Not these days.
Hahahah! So much easier to complain online, isn’t it?
Lordie, it is seriously annoying, isn’t it? So difficult to put your finger on.
1 Like
Because you’re relying on my description of teeth grinding from years ago. What year are you talking about?. We obviously have different ideas. That’s why you’re confused.
