If this were an in person situation, this would be harassment. OP has asked you and 3-4 others to stop multiple times.
It’s hard to know what is going on without seeing the situation happen. Trying to draw conclusions is at best speculation.
It’s also getting hard to know whether this thread is still about the OP’s horse, or the 3-4 people who just can’t seem to help themselves, lol.
Lol wut?
I wouldn’t call this harassment. People actually mean well on this thread and are genuinely offering their experience and advice. Sure, see it has harassment in person, but we are not in person. Honestly if the OP wasn’t so rude and condescending, the thread wouldn’t have taken this turn. Or if she perhaps specified in the thread title she is looking for pro/trainer advice only… Which I wouldn’t go to an online forum for, but to each their own. Some advice does not meet the OP’s criteria, ok, fine. But it is still a useful thread.
It is hard to know without seeing the situation happen and yes there is speculation. Many have already stated that without video or seeing the OP ride in person, their input might miss the mark. This is what can happen without video. The OP does not have to post a video at all, but should expect some input that might he a bit off as others have no visual aid to go off of.
I think the thread is still about OP’s horse but also others. That’s fine. Threads do this, they meander a bit and this often leads to other people being able to take away something useful from the thread too.
Your post is especially useful /sarcasm
But I’m not saying mine is either! :winkgrin:
Obviously I don’t see eye to eye with the OP and that’s fine! I still wish her well on this training journey with her horse.
I must’ve missed where she asked me to stop. Sorry about that. I won’t post any more.
Originally posted by eightpondfarm:
fearlessly i write my opinion: OP, you are a touchy and reactive person. You don’t like anyone telling you what to do or how to do it. What makes you think your horse would be anything different? They reflect and amplify our best and our worst. As riders…no, as animal lovers, it does them harm when we embroil ourselves in any and all negative emotional conversations with them. I think you might be better off with your horse if before you engage with him, take a half hour of yoga for yourself. And then, a half hour of yoga/stretching/mindfulness/with him. Give him the very best of you.
OK, sure. I’ll answer you.
I don’t have a website.
I’m not a dressage trainer.
I haven’t even had one single dressage lesson yet.
I am a trainer though.
I train animals, not people. Just about any kind of animal really… horses, dogs, sheep, cows and bulls and steers, llamas, chickens, guineas, cats, skunks, …that’s all i have here now. in the past i’ve tamed opossums, wild birds (a few lbbs (sparrows, etc), crow, brown thrasher) a few snakes and a big snapping turtle, “Hun”, (as-in Attila the, not as-in hunny). Training and taming is just about all i do …it is my whole life. professionally I train dogs for DHS, and am a Css for FEMA. Take my advice? or disqualify me because you don’t want to take my advice? But i’m right. You and your horse have a relationship issue, a communication issue. This is what needs to be fixed. With humans and animals, the human needs to go 3/4 of the way. No, make that 7/8 of the way.
How so? I believe that a competent trainer should not only be able to teach from the ground but also be able to get on and ride what they teach and be able to help with training issues. Isn’t that what a trainer is for?
We obviously disagree. So like I said, I hope you can find a solution eventually.
My comment wasn’t directed at you. You obviously have the skills to ride, teach and train but due to physical limitations( as you described) you now lunge. A very different scenario than the OP’s situation-- in my thinking.
Candyappy. I am so sorry. I quoted your post but I was speaking to OP who dismisses and pooh poohs anyone who dares to post about training.
Yes I temporarily lost the use of my right arm, my job and my career and had lectures from doctors that I would never ride again and that I should be at home turning out babies!
I went to doctors, physios, acupuncture, chiropractors, but not full use was back.
2 decades later I was fixed in 2 sessions by a chiropractor. I went about my lower back. When I walked up to him he said. B#####y horse riders, you have fallen on your head. You have hurt your arm.
I now have 3 horses in work at home and train horses at a local riding school. I am back. YAY and guess what. No children!
Every trainer and instructor has dealt with a spooky horse. Every horse will turn into a spooky horse without the correct management. They are horses after all. Spooking is what saves their lives in the wild.
Every horse improves with correct riding and every horse improves with correct lunging. OP says not for that horse. Yet it is what their own instructor said to do. I am just saying that it takes more than one session and it will keep the rider safe and benefit the horse. Yes for that horse. Lunging costs nothing but time and energy. You can lunge and then ride. If lunged correctly and the horse is physically okay., it certainly won’t hurt the horse and it won’t cost any dollars.
I have taught hubby to lunge, so even though he is riding 2 ex-racehorse tbs as his first horses, which we all know generally is a big no-no, I am now at Mum’s, over an hours drive away and I am not worried about him riding alone. I know the horses are sane. We have the plastic cages on the stirrups.
Our horses have also had spooky object training which I do myself. It is not the same as desensitisation, as the pressure is not held on, but essentially it teaches the horse that if it gets a fright it stands still. That has saved me a few times over the years.
So it is hubby making a mistake that is all I need to worry about!
Is your horse turned out with a buddy?
My horse is night and day different when he’s out with another horse versus alone (even with plenty of horses in paddocks or pastures next to him).
I love that you’re doing 24/7 turnout. Horses can learn a lot of confidence out there having to deal with life. My guy also lost a lot of confidence at a barn that didn’t believe in turning horses out together. I know the risk of injury causes some people to balk, but my guy runs and bucks in either scenario. Him being out with a very calm and un-reactive gelding friend helps him so much.
I started out with a pretty nice, regular gelding. Spooked occasionally, but it was honest and never a big deal.
At said barn he started off my spooking more and more often. At certain areas of the arena. Or when something moved or changed. Along certain bends in the trail. We did go back to the very basics and I saw a lot of improvement in both is attitude and my trust in him. But he still was not the same horse as before. I finally moved him.
I will say that it took over a year to fully “rehab” him from his loss of confidence. Even though he changed quickly, there were shadows of his poor attitude.
I think that part of that was moving him to a barn that allowed him to be more of a horse. He got to see another confident horse deal with life and he got to play and react and whatever he wanted.
I also think that part of it was a hole in my training that I didn’t know about. That my trainer at the time didn’t know about. And that clinicians didn’t notice/address. I got a trainer that made us go back to the very basics and insist upon relaxation before moving up. We were ready for 2nd two years ago, and now we’re actually ready for 2nd with a confident and relaxed horse who releases at the base of his neck, even in collection when he’s lifting his withers. Some days he’s not that relaxed horse and I have to go back to basics where I can find the relaxation. But more and more often that is not the case.
I think the final part is that he’s made me a better rider and I’ve found methods that help him, as an individual, relax. They don’t work for every horse so I can’t say they will for your guy either.
Method A is simple and it’s getting him to release the base of his neck and stretch down. Makes a huge difference in how he approaches everything if his topline is relaxed.
Method B is letting him figure it out. He’s terrified of cows. Instead of forcing the issue (because dude will full-on turn into an explosive monster due to his fear), he gets to deal with it on his own terms while keeping us safe. He will see a pasture full of cows in the distance and want to turn and head back. I calmly turn him back around. On a loose rein (this is hard to convince myself to do, but it works for him as he is not a bolter, but will just scoot and spin) I quietly ask for forward. He gives me half a step and I release pressure. Only to ask again a bit later. This takes FOREVER and we’re admittedly still not 100%, but he’s so much faster to trust me because he doesn’t feel out of control in the situation. He is a horse who, when pressured, will revolt and try to leave.
This got longer than planned. But I thought your guy sounded similar to mine in that when “pressure” is applied that’s where the issues start to surface. And unfortunately, pressure is a relative term to the horse.
Funny you should say this. I’m keeping a training log and my horse had been really good over the winter and then his turnout got changed to be by himself with other horses nearby but not the same paddock. The negative change in his behavior coincides with his change in turnout (it also coincides with running out of MagRestore, but I’ve put him on a different magnesium supplement and no difference). We’re working on finding another field for him where he will have a friend. I think it will make a difference but time will tell.
I was afraid I had offended you. Great news that you are fixed and back in the saddle again.
I lunge quite frequently before riding. A great way to gauge the mental attitude if I haven’t ridden for a day or 2 and it gets them listening and focusing on me , not our surroundings.
Is it just me or is this the weirdest post ever? OP asks advice for a problem she’s had for years. People offer advice, based on the information she’s provided, and OP oooh-poohs it because either they don’t have enough information, or she believes they are not as qualified as her trainers. The trainers who apparently have not managed to help her fix this problem after years. Do I have this right?
A quick recap.
Horse injures pro riders. Rider has to bail. Horse spooks.
Rider looks for comfy place in arena to bail because all riders who ride a horse do that.
When horse spooks, rider sticks spur in. Is now looking for a rolled bigger spur.
This is still happening after this rider is riding this horse for 6 years. The horse reacts to the gate of doom even when it hangs out at the gate with horses on the other side when turned out.
The rider has been to all sorts of pros in real life who must have passed their test as being good beforehand.
In the rider’s mind the rider and the trainers have done everything right. The horse is still doing it.
The rider posts a video of a cowboy working the horse and won’t listen when alarms are set off in the forum as doing the horse mental harm rather than good. Pooh poohed by rider.
The rider says that the horse and them groom each other. The rider says they free lunge the horse often without even a halter on it. They haven’t lunged in side reins for years.
The rider’s instructor says to lunge the horse in side reins in front of the gate. The rider does this once.
Any one who has posted training on this thread is not a good enough trainer and a poopy head and shouldn’t comment on this thread.
People reading this thread are now feeling so sorry for the horse.
I don’t typically read through old threads but this one really piqued my curiosity.
Zooming out, the most consistent theme on him spanning 5 years is you saying “i’ve noticed this [issue]”. The subsequent posts are then spent explaining to people why they don’t understand the issue, how it definitely cannot be pain, and how the people you have access to in real life are far more qualified than anyone on COTH.
When this guy arrived he was skinny and stressed and scoped positive for ulcers but his weird stargazing behavior definitely couldn’t be pain. He developed an obsessive licking ritual before being ridden but it couldn’t be pain. He went through an explosive phases while being mounted but it definitely wasn’t pain. Teeth grinding in the crossties was for entertainment, not pain. Dropping every time he is saddled in addition to the obsessive licking is linked to a positive association with carrot stretches as a yearling, not pain.
It looks like you’ve invested a lot in nutritional analysis, back x rays, ophthalmologist, and saddle fitting at various points but he doesn’t sound happy and you also seem pretty unwilling to consider pain if you explored something months or years prior.
It is pain or it is you/your program. Is there really an alternative?
If you are convinced it cannot be pain why not ship him to the clinician he clicked with for a few months? If that clinician felt that this horse has no “no” in him then perhaps he can figure out what’s going wrong.
Then again, the quality of the trainers you are working with seems to be a point you constantly come back to over and over so what’s the harm in exchanging a month of training for a body scan at a university hospital?
Careful, I got my head bitten off and accused of “rewriting the narrative” when I referred to his antics as “explosive” when I suggested a bone scan. She stated her hesitation to do so is the cost.
Ok I took a peek at some past threads too. OP, do you have your horse’s headshaking under control? I think this is related to these behaviors (my horse was a mild seasonal headshaker as well–I think his symptoms were milder than with your horse as he didn’t do it just standing outside). Also know several other over-reactive horses with the condition.
And how are your canter departures going? Anxiety over the canter was one of my horse’s major training issues related to his physical issues that would spiral into this anxiety place (that then promotes spooking and other reactive behaviors). I even spent quite a long time not cantering under saddle to try to break him of it as we sorted out the physical causes, and if we even got to a point in the ride where he thought it might be canter time he would get anxious.
I’d bet there are several layers to the onion to peel back here. I’ve been through it, and while it may seem like once you identify and address one layer things should go in the right direction, it’s still a tough juggling act once you start down a path of improvement especially given the length of time the behavior has been going on and likelihood that the physical components are chronic.
And once one layer has been peeled it does not mean that it will not happen again. Next year the exact same thing can happen.
I think it is you. People and “trainers” have not read my posts. I have tried to respond to each person and pretty much, I have tried much of what was suggested. Is that “poo-pooing” people? Then, I was scolded and told to “just sell the horse to a better home”. I was looking for additional information and insight into this horse. Even your post characterizes my OP incorrectly. That’s really disappointing.
How interesting that you spent time reading my previous posts! Yes, this horse’s headshaking is under control. It is not related to spooking harder work.
My horse is an over-thinker and anticipates the canter. He anticipates everything because he’s super smart and doesn’t like to “wait”. But thanks for asking.
Well thanks for looking through all of my old posts!
Zooming out, this is another post of someone thinking they are “putting together” the pieces from posts I’ve started here without knowing the situation. Ignoring everything I haven’t posted on COTH. I’m oh so selective about what I post and always have been, and this is why. It is really easy to put things together from what is posted, but not from the actual situation. I’ve noticed you and others have “told me” what I should do rather than asking real questions to discern what is going on. Or asked me how the issue resolved.
Thank you for classifying all of my questions into “a pain response” despite the actual causes of issues and all sorts of diagnostics I have done over the years. NO ONE HAS FOUND pain in him. He still licks my hands after bridling, it might be related to the sugar cubes he has ALWAYS gotten after bridling (do this with all my horses) or the taste of my lotion. But I still let him do it, his eyes are very soft and his ears are floppy, it’s a relaxing moment for him. It is a part of the routine.
Which clinician did he click with for a few months? Are you suggesting I ship my horse to Germany for a few months? Even he says “your horse doesn’t know me but he knows you, like all client horses”.
Thanks, @GraceLikeRain . Please feel free to ask me how any of the issues you’ve brought up resolved. I may not have posted the resolution to COTH. And thanks for the walk down memory lane!
Your recap is SOOO WRONG!!! SO WRONG but I don’t think you care - it fits your narrative.
Oh well, you say you are now feeling sorry for the horse. You are personally invited to come ride him.
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