Horse ets spookier with work

[Jenerationx]

I know you’re looking for some alternative training method to try, and this is not that per se, but something I’ve found useful is to have someone take video of each and every ride for a period of time and watch every second of it myself. It sounds stupid and simple, but I learned a LOT sitting in a chair that wasn’t going to spin, spook and buck me off. Being able to observe the good, bad, and ugly rides over the course of a month helped see what the freak outs actually looked like.

There was a huge difference in what I thought I was feeling vs. what I was able to observe when I wasn’t riding Sir DucknSpin. I seriously thought I was in fearless mode and not riding defensively. Instant replay says otherwise. It was slight and subtle, but it was there. We’re talking my finger moved an eight of an inch before Sir DuckandSpin’s eye widened and we were off to the rodeo.

I didn’t even see it when I recorded a ride, watched it back… then did the same with the next ride. I was frustrated and not figuring out why the hell there were inconsistent freak outs. I watched 3 or 4 ride videos back to back and that’s when I noticed more than just the horse getting looky… put the video on slo-mo and there was that tiny hand movement before every.single.one.

I know it’s not a new training method or anything earth shattering, but it might be worth it to watch what’s going on from a different perspective and see if there’s something there that either he or you are doing right before the over reactive moments. It’s easier to see when you’re not on the reactive horse with your heart thumping away at you.

[J-Lu]

@Denali6298

Maybe. Those are the only responses she didn’t get rude about.

You don’t read my posts or explanations.

[J-Lu]

@candyappy

How qualified can they be if he is spooking at the same gate and doing the same evasive tactics when you increase his work for 6 years now?

It may be as simple as the horse not being happy in his job. He keeps telling you, but nobody is listening.

They are way better trainers than you seem to fathom.

[J-Lu]

@Jenerationx

I know you’re looking for some alternative training method to try, and this is not that per se, but something I’ve found useful is to have someone take video of each and every ride for a period of time and watch every second of it myself. It sounds stupid and simple, but I learned a LOT sitting in a chair that wasn’t going to spin, spook and buck me off. Being able to observe the good, bad, and ugly rides over the course of a month helped see what the freak outs actually looked like.

There was a huge difference in what I thought I was feeling vs. what I was able to observe when I wasn’t riding Sir DucknSpin. I seriously thought I was in fearless mode and not riding defensively. Instant replay says otherwise. It was slight and subtle, but it was there. We’re talking my finger moved an eight of an inch before Sir DuckandSpin’s eye widened and we were off to the rodeo.

I didn’t even see it when I recorded a ride, watched it back… then did the same with the next ride. I was frustrated and not figuring out why the hell there were inconsistent freak outs. I watched 3 or 4 ride videos back to back and that’s when I noticed more than just the horse getting looky… put the video on slo-mo and there was that tiny hand movement before every.single.one.

I know it’s not a new training method or anything earth shattering, but it might be worth it to watch what’s going on from a different perspective and see if there’s something there that either he or you are doing right before the over reactive moments. It’s easier to see when you’re not on the reactive horse with your heart thumping away at you.

Thank you! I have a Soloshot3 and watch myself. He has the same pattern, ears go tightly up, attention on the “issue”, he can react if a bird flies off the fence when in this mode. But maybe not. So far, the positive cues are helping. We’ll see as he goes back into regular work.

What exactly did you see? Can you describe the exact point in the video? Of note, he was started by a great dressage trainer (who breeds/trains young horses) and re-started (due to months off and his personality) by another great young dressage horse trainer. He’s has a really good life. Please point out what you see in a great of detail as you would like!

EDIT: I will comment on your response as it relates to a young horse like this. I suspect this trainer has more experience with difficult horses, but I’d love you to prove me wrong. Prove me wrong. Prove.

[Denali6298]

@J-Lu

Thank you! I have a Soloshot3 and watch myself. He has the same pattern, ears go tightly up, attention on the “issue”, he can react if a bird flies off the fence when in this mode. But maybe not. So far, the positive cues are helping. We’ll see as he goes back into regular work.

What exactly did you see? Can you describe the exact point in the video? Of note, he was started by a great dressage trainer (who breeds/trains young horses) and re-started (due to months off and his personality) by another great young dressage horse trainer. He’s has a really good life. Please point out what you see in a great of detail as you would like!

EDIT: I will comment on your response as it relates to a young horse like this. I suspect this trainer has more experience with difficult horses, but I’d love you to prove me wrong. Prove me wrong. Prove.

I would compare videos of successfully getting past the gate and not. By successfully I mean when he reacts but you are able to keep him together. Is there anything different in the videos going on? Light? Horses? You?

I have found in my own riding that I can recreate or prevent things more quickly when I watch immediately after a ride because I remember the feeling be it good or bad. There are many videos of bad where I can see myself tense just a bit to make it worse. Then the good videos give me that ah ha moment because I remember how it felt to ride that particular jump, movement, gait and can see what my body was doing.

I find videos helpful to see when I’m doing it right and wrong. At the end of the day we have more of an influence on the reactive sensitive horse with small movements.

An example is when I’m jumping, if my weight isn’t firmly into my knee closing my thighs to tell my horse it’s okay doesn’t work. If my weight is there it’s beautiful despite a slight hesitation on her part that sometimes isn’t visible.

ETA: What do you do when his ears go tightly up? Sit chilly or do you start anticipating like we all do at times?

[Jenerationx]

@J-Lu

Thank you! I have a Soloshot3 and watch myself. He has the same pattern, ears go tightly up, attention on the “issue”, he can react if a bird flies off the fence when in this mode. But maybe not. So far, the positive cues are helping. We’ll see as he goes back into regular work.

What exactly did you see? Can you describe the exact point in the video? Of note, he was started by a great dressage trainer (who breeds/trains young horses) and re-started (due to months off and his personality) by another great young dressage horse trainer. He’s has a really good life. Please point out what you see in a great of detail as you would like!

EDIT: I will comment on your response as it relates to a young horse like this. I suspect this trainer has more experience with difficult horses, but I’d love you to prove me wrong. Prove me wrong. Prove.

I’m not trying to prove anything. I have more experience than some, less than others, just putting it out there that sometimes you can learn just as much watching the ride than you can on the horse.

Like Denali said, it can be anything. In my case it was a damn near imperceptible tightening of my hands that showed up on every single video where that particular horse freaked out. Teeny tiny subtle shifts in position matter. I didn’t even know I was doing it, trainer didn’t see it from her angle, but the camera caught it. As soon as I knew I was doing it, I started consciously relaxing my hand at that point and the freak outs lessened.

@Denali6298

ETA: What do you do when his ears go tightly up? Sit chilly or do you start anticipating like we all do at times?

Even if you are sitting chilly, you’re still anticipating and may be doing something ever so slight. It’s like when someone is lying. They’re TRYING to act normal, and maybe they are acting damn near normal, but there’s s tiny little telltale sign that they’re not quite relaxed.

Maybe it’s nothing you’re doing or not doing, maybe it is something physical that’s not diagnosed yet, but a couple videos and observation doesn’t cost anything.

[Feliz]

@Jenerationx

it was a damn near imperceptible tightening of my hands that showed up on every single video where that particular horse freaked out. Teeny tiny subtle shifts in position matter. I didn’t even know I was doing it, trainer didn’t see it from her angle, but the camera caught it. As soon as I knew I was doing it, I started consciously relaxing my hand at that point and the freak outs lessened.

My favourite show jumping trainer picked out that I was clenching my fists on approaches to fences - not actually pulling back - but that tensing very much effected my hot, spooky horse. Generally I have quite soft hands, but about 4 strides out I’d anticipate him making a bid for the fence and do this subconsciously. It was extraordinary how much this made a difference

[RhythmNCruise]

My horse must know about this thread and is trying to give me some data points to share, as in two of our last three rides he has spooked bigger than he ever has in his life under saddle. Yesterday’s spook bordered on dangerous as he nearly backed us into a large ditch. Thank goodness I was able to keep him from doing that. And all of this was over a water tank that he’d walked by with no concern just 15 minutes earlier and has passed many times before on many rides. But, the angle on the tank upon our return is much different obviously, and the tank had recently (not in the last fifteen minutes, but in the last few days) been moved slightly and turned up on its side.

I love my horse, and I’m literally the only person who has ever sat on his back. Everything he knows or doesn’t know is thanks to me. He’s kind of a Jekyll and Hyde at the moment…can go from riding him on the buckle with him totally relaxed and poking along to him seeing something, slamming on brakes, scrambling backwards, spinning, and running away…though usually just for a couple of strides until he’s “safely away” and I can turn him back around to face the monster.

He is and always has been very aware. I think the word used in this thread is hypervigilant. He’s definitely that. Even though he’s a good boy most of the time, he sees EVERYTHING. He watches EVERYTHING. Normally his spooking has been giving things the sideways stink-eye, snorting, and tip-toeing by sideways to make sure it doesn’t get him…then it’s forgotten. But lately he’s upped his game and the spooks are becoming more profound.

I was able to get him through both of his big spooks, and get him comfortable with the thing he was spooking at. Yesterday, after the big spook, we went to work in the arena and afterward I took him back to the horse-eating water tank and he was a good boy about it.

I discovered some back pain in my horse yesterday, so I’m wondering if that could be contributing to his stronger flight instinct lately. I’m going to check his saddle fit today (no riding to let his back heal) and adjusting the tree if necessary. It might be a little too wide at the moment. I’ve also started him back to work after three YEARS as a pasture ornament, and upon reflection, realized I haven’t given him nearly enough time to get properly conditioned before expecting and pushing for way too much. So, once I do get back on him, I’ll be scaling back my expectations quite a lot.

Other than that, I’m going to take him back to the basics and do lots of in-hand groundwork to help him learn to decompress and handle himself when he gets stressed. He’s also getting some SmartStride Senior (even though he’s just 12) next week, and hopefully that will help him be more comfortable overall once he’s back in normal work.

Live and learn. Horses teach us something new every day, don’t they?

[Jenerationx]

@Feliz

My favourite show jumping trainer picked out that I was clenching my fists on approaches to fences - not actually pulling back - but that tensing very much effected my hot, spooky horse. Generally I have quite soft hands, but about 4 strides out I’d anticipate him making a bid for the fence and do this subconsciously. It was extraordinary how much this made a difference

Yep, minute changes can make a huge difference.

[Fellbutbackup]

“If you’re good at something, never do it for free.”

[eightpondfarm]

fearlessly i write my opinion: OP, you are a touchy and reactive person. You don’t like anyone telling you what to do or how to do it. What makes you think your horse would be anything different? They reflect and amplify our best and our worst. As riders…no, as animal lovers, it does them harm when we embroil ourselves in any and all negative emotional conversations with them. I think you might be better off with your horse if before you engage with him, take a half hour of yoga for yourself. And then, a half hour of yoga/stretching/mindfulness/with him. Give him the very best of you.

[candyappy]

@J-Lu

They are way better trainers than you seem to fathom.

If they were good trainers you wouldn’t be here . Multiple trainers unable to get on and fix the horse tells me all I need to know.

[candyappy]

@J-Lu

They are way better trainers than you seem to fathom.

I guess they are the type that teach from the ground only and can’t ride what they teach or solve training problems?

I grew up where trainers taught and could ride and actually train as well. A dying breed I guess.

I wish you luck with your horse.

[SuzieQNutter]

@candyappy

I guess they are the type that teach from the ground only and can’t ride what they teach or solve training problems?

I grew up where trainers taught and could ride and actually train as well. A dying breed I guess.

I wish you luck with your horse.

I was not asked for my resume and I said what I would do. Lunge in side reins twice a day until the horse does not flick an ear at the mower being started, horses running around in the paddock, a gale force wind past the gate of doom, etc, etc, etc. This will take longer than one day.

I was a professional rider and instructor. I would ride other people’s horses under the instruction of a level III Instructor and Grand Prix Competitor, going for my Level II Instructors as I was a Level I instructor.

Or does that not count for anything?

I rode all breeds of horses. Those started and unstarted. It amazed me at the start when the instructor would tell some of the owners of the horses that they were banned from riding it, but WOW did the horses go better once their owner stopped riding it!

I soon learned a very important thing. Whatever the horse throws at you, continue asking what you were asking for before they did it. Like the horse that leapt 6 foot in the air, so I was to ride it while she was pregnant.

I wish I had been told that he did that before he did it. I can feel each footstep I can feel a canter lead before they canter. The first thing I felt was my back tilt towards the ground. I stopped, as I thought I would be in so much trouble as the horse had told the instructor I had done something unfair.

No he did that all the time, hadn’t I seen it?

No I was busy working and teaching, not watching other lessons.

He leapt 3 times on the first ride, twice on the second ride, once on the third ride and never leapt for me or his owner again.

An Anglo Arab I can remember going across the diagonal and realised that 3 strides back the horse had done something to scare me. It had not worked so I had continued on and nothing happened but that was obviously what scared the rider and got the horse out of work. As it didn’t work on me the horse didn’t try it again.

Eight horses a day for over a year on horses that were misbehaving for their owners while teaching lessons as well. Is that enough of a pro for you?

So 3 decades later with more horses teaching me under my belt and a right arm that is not as good as 30 years ago. I use the lunge.

The lunge teaches the horse the main ingredient you need that the horse needs to trust you and have confidence in you. It puts the horse into work for the correct movement and muscle. The horse can find its own rhythm and tempo. It brings the brain back to you and you are not riding a horse that has injured the pros you had ride it and that you are bailing off, so the horse learns that if it does something to scare you, it gets out of work.

On the lunge you will be able to tell the day that the horse asks you to ride.

[J-Lu]

@candyappy

I guess they are the type that teach from the ground only and can’t ride what they teach or solve training problems?

I grew up where trainers taught and could ride and actually train as well. A dying breed I guess.

I wish you luck with your horse.

Very ignorant.

[J-Lu]

@SuzieQNutter

I was not asked for my resume and I said what I would do. Lunge in side reins twice a day until the horse does not flick an ear at the mower being started, horses running around in the paddock, a gale force wind past the gate of doom, etc, etc, etc. This will take longer than one day.

I was a professional rider and instructor. I would ride other people’s horses under the instruction of a level III Instructor and Grand Prix Competitor, going for my Level II Instructors as I was a Level I instructor.

Or does that not count for anything?

I rode all breeds of horses. Those started and unstarted. It amazed me at the start when the instructor would tell some of the owners of the horses that they were banned from riding it, but WOW did the horses go better once their owner stopped riding it!

I soon learned a very important thing. Whatever the horse throws at you, continue asking what you were asking for before they did it. Like the horse that leapt 6 foot in the air, so I was to ride it while she was pregnant.

I wish I had been told that he did that before he did it. I can feel each footstep I can feel a canter lead before they canter. The first thing I felt was my back tilt towards the ground. I stopped, as I thought I would be in so much trouble as the horse had told the instructor I had done something unfair.

No he did that all the time, hadn’t I seen it?

No I was busy working and teaching, not watching other lessons.

He leapt 3 times on the first ride, twice on the second ride, once on the third ride and never leapt for me or his owner again.

An Anglo Arab I can remember going across the diagonal and realised that 3 strides back the horse had done something to scare me. It had not worked so I had continued on and nothing happened but that was obviously what scared the rider and got the horse out of work. As it didn’t work on me the horse didn’t try it again.

Eight horses a day for over a year on horses that were misbehaving for their owners while teaching lessons as well. Is that enough of a pro for you?

So 3 decades later with more horses teaching me under my belt and a right arm that is not as good as 30 years ago. I use the lunge.

The lunge teaches the horse the main ingredient you need that the horse needs to trust you and have confidence in you. It puts the horse into work for the correct movement and muscle. The horse can find its own rhythm and tempo. It brings the brain back to you and you are not riding a horse that has injured the pros you had ride it and that you are bailing off, so the horse learns that if it does something to scare you, it gets out of work.

On the lunge you will be able to tell the day that the horse asks you to ride.

You gave poor and inaccurate advice for this horse.

[J-Lu]

@eightpondfarm

fearlessly i write my opinion: OP, you are a touchy and reactive person. You don’t like anyone telling you what to do or how to do it. What makes you think your horse would be anything different? They reflect and amplify our best and our worst. As riders…no, as animal lovers, it does them harm when we embroil ourselves in any and all negative emotional conversations with them. I think you might be better off with your horse if before you engage with him, take a half hour of yoga for yourself. And then, a half hour of yoga/stretching/mindfulness/with him. Give him the very best of you.

oh please, I’m an experienced rider. You can’t differentiate between between training approaches. There is no evidence to show you’re an actual horse trainer. Got a website? Post it here. Lets compare your experience with people who have worked with this horse. Please list your dressage credentials and experience.’

Yeah, I;m touchy about non qualified people telling me what to do with this horse. Please, oh please, state you qualifications, experience and advice.

[oranges2016]

Time for an end to this thread already? So much good advice here but poster doesn’t seem to like/understand/pushes back against most all. Not a big deal in all that is happening with big world problems.

J-Lu, you seem to already know and have clear opinions and ideas on what’s right for you and your horse (after 16 pages here) So maybe get on with it. No need to keep trying to get something out of this forum.

It’s a personal and individual horse and human journey ultimately. Best of luck to you and your lovely guy.

[Denali6298]

@J-Lu

oh please, I’m an experienced rider. You can’t differentiate between between training approaches. There is no evidence to show you’re an actual horse trainer. Got a website? Post it here. Lets compare your experience with people who have worked with this horse. Please list your dressage credentials and experience.’

Yeah, I;m touchy about non qualified people telling me what to do with this horse. Please, oh please, state you qualifications, experience and advice.

What you keep missing is the skill set. There are riders like yourself who have great accomplishments. That doesn’t necessarily translate into working with a fearful or spooky horse. And that’s okay. Why you refuse to acknowledge that is beyond anyone.

My skill set isn’t with the upper levels, my skill set falls between starting young horses and more importantly re-starting the rank.

A different skill set doesn’t mean who is a better or worse rider. It just means they can do one job better while the other person can do another job better.

Yes you are experienced. You just aren’t experienced in the realm of difficult flighty horses. That’s not a black mark as you as a rider. It just means right now that’s the skill set you need to learn. At this point I feel sorry for your horse. I hope he finds someone that is willing to understand him and work with him. Not shove him in a box because “I’ve shown at this level.”

You have made it more than clear in this thread the journey doesn’t matter unless you can brag about accomplishments as they relate to rated shows. I feel sad for you.

In a nutshell your a rider not a horsewoman and I’ve never wanted to settle for being just a rider.

[RhythmNCruise]

@J-Lu

oh please, I’m an experienced rider. You can’t differentiate between between training approaches. There is no evidence to show you’re an actual horse trainer. Got a website? Post it here. Lets compare your experience with people who have worked with this horse. Please list your dressage credentials and experience.’

Yeah, I;m touchy about non qualified people telling me what to do with this horse. Please, oh please, state you qualifications, experience and advice.

Interesting how everyone is supposed to meet your demands for proving they’re qualified to offer advice to you and your horse, yet you can’t be bothered to post a video of you and the horse in action so that people can actually see what’s going on and tailor their advice to fit your particular situation.

People, myself included, have actually invested a great deal of time into trying to help you with your horse’s issues. And part of that is because many of us have been there. I’m there right now with my horse, only in his case his spooking is getting worse for some reason. It’s rare to find anyone who’s been riding for a significant amount of time who hasn’t dealt with a spooky horse at some point. And in my quest to help my guy, I’ve been researching and finding whatever I can that might help. And you know what? More than once I’ve thought, “Man, this might help J-Lu with her horse.” Seriously. That’s why I posted the video link. Even today, I have resorted to ordering a calming supplement for my guy (one I’ve used in the past on him when he was younger that worked wonders on him). And I found myself trying to remember if you’d tried any calming supplements on your horse, and whether it would be worth my while to come here and suggest the one I’ve had good luck with (SmartCalm Ultra).

Anyway, I hope in the future you can give an update on your horse’s progress and tell us all what finally worked to get him past this issue. And I mean that sincerely.