Horse ets spookier with work

How is that weak? Are you anticipating something happening? You could tell us no, but maybe someone sees slight tension in how you ride at that moment.

Maybe you’re not noticing something someone here could see.

Do you ever record your rides and analyze them afterword? If not you should start. You’d probably be able to pick up on a lot of little things that will help you.

Further more when people did address your horse specifically from the old video you got dismissive again.

You clearly don’t like any answer that doesn’t involve drugs or a gadget.

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I… wha… you… you started this thread asking for help. And you didn’t request a resume to respond. :confused:

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Sure. My horse used to explode over her own forelock touching her ear. She would explode at everything she deemed scary by rearing, flying backwards, spinning, bolting etc. She doesn’t do that anymore.

It took me one year and one trainer to sort her out. She’s my biggest training accomplishment. I don’t show. I don’t ride at your Dressage level but I did fix my horse in under 6 years.

Again good luck!

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FWIW my horse became abnormally spooky before we found his neck issue. He was always a little looky and he could explode at times. But a lot more spooky at things that didn’t make sense. Vet said he exhibited all of the top 3 symptoms. Spookiness, reluctance to go one direction, balking behavior. If really pushed he would explode but he was 4. He did fine on any kind of contact. Passed a lameness exam. Didn’t respond to palpation. But boy did injecting his neck help. He also got spookier with ulcers. Whether it’s just a big spook or an explosion, as many people have said, it could be a pain symptom. And it can be a pain symptom in a clinically sound horse.

I went to a presentation on everything neck, back and pelvis given by one of the top equine hospitals, and the vets said that very often problems in those areas only manifest in behavior issues and then often only in ridden behavior issues. The behavior can kind of run the gamut based on the individual horse. There might be some physical trends but those are subtle. And depending on the horse’s level of sensitivity, they might be too subtle for us to see…you might not know how good this horse would really go if he was feeling 100%.

A recent video might be helpful. But a good vet workup is probably better. And my vet who had gotten to know my horse’s go to behaviors under saddle when something was bothering him at one point threw up his hands and said to get a cowboy. I found a different vet.

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This too. For Marsey routine acupuncture/chiropractic work helps and I keep note of her ulcers.

The hardest part was getting through the behavior when she thought it would hurt. The forelock touching the ear was a symptom of that ear being twitched at one point. When she knows who and what is touching it she’s okay. If not, she will lose her marbles. I did explore any ear issues and come up with nothing which I believe to be true because she really does like them curried.

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No problem. Worth asking about. I would be quite interested to know what she says if/when you do.

Snipped–

Doesn’t feel like a fair characterization. Haven’t seen the OP go for drugs or gadgets for undersaddle work even when suggested (as has been several times upthread by others).

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Maybe. Those are the only responses she didn’t get rude about.

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As a sidebar, Denali, you vindicate me with this post! My mare - I’m the hand walker up thread - explodes from her own tail brushing her legs (among other things). Your story gives me even more confidence that I’m figuring out my mare by going slow and listening to her. Thanks for sharing, and brava!

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Okay, I’m obviously way too invested in this thread and the OP and her horse, but oh well.
@J-Lu I’ve gone back to the beginning of the thread and have be re-reading your posts, looking for any clues that could lead to the source of this issue and I honestly think this is the winner:

I think you are on to something with your third point. I did a three-day clinic with a German trainer a few weeks ago. He rode my horse and, while doing the same stuff he was teaching me, did it a whole lot better than me! He told me he felt my horse trying to understand him, but he thought my horse NEVER said no. He thought that my horse was actively comfortable in his own comfort zone, and sort of “trained me” to think that this was the comfort zone. He explained that horses like mine can exhibit fear when immediately out of their comfort zone, but gain confidence when they learn that they’re OK out of the comfort zone. He slowly worked my horse, but ended up getting the most AMAZING work out of him. I have never seen a trot or canter like that from my horse. He MADE me get on afterwards to feel it, and it was like I was riding a different horse. Yes, he said, that the horse didn’t know what to do with him except listen because he was “an unknown quantity” to my horse whereas I’m a “known quantity” to my horse that he will try to manipulate. And yes, he’s a professional with exceptional timing. He rides stallions and thinks my horse can act like a stallion with his hypervigilant mind. He doesn’t think my horse is spooky, just extremely hypervigilant about his surroundings. He told me this in some previous clinic when he lobbed a glove at my horse’s face and my horse just blinked a few times. “See, you’d be on the ground if your horse was truly spooky. He’s hypervigilant”. :lol: But I did get alot of focused exercises in this clinic. In fact, I was doing one when two new horses in training ran up to their gate the other day about 100 feet away from the arena, and my horse dropped and spun. I had to bail from the saddle. There are almost ALWAYS horses in that pasture, but these had a ton of chrome and one was a paint, and “white markings” can upset him. Yea, white markings can upset him because they are outside of his little dictionary that explains horse coloring. Has he seen tons of horses? Yes. But horses with lots of white are out of place and can’t be trusted. I’ll mention that he was raised with a palomino with tons of chrome…but…sigh…
.

Your posts indicate that from the time this horse was shipped to you, he’s had issues. Quotes pulled from a few of your posts:

No trainer that has worked with him hasn’t been hurt by his reactivity.

He was started by my former trainer who has bred and started warmbloods for 30 years - knows what she’s doing. He did buck her off and was very fearful at her place.

When he was a 3+ year old and shipped to me, he was a mental mess.

My horse has had extensive NH work when he was considered a “dangerous” 3-4 year old…

And this is just from the first few posts in the thread. From the earliest days, your horse has solidified himself as a dangerous, fearful, mental mess who has hurt every trainer that has worked with him.

I’ll suggest that your horse is not the only one in your partnership who is “hypervigilant”. He has trained you to be just as worried about everything as he is, because you’re rightly worried about getting hurt. But it’s a vicious cycle.

It wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world to consider rehoming him to some “unknown quantity” who can give the horse a fresh slate. Not every horse is going to click with every rider (or trainer). They’re all sweet when they’re not being asked to do anything out of their comfort zones, but when you go beyond that, there are just some partnerships that work and some that don’t.

You’ll know best whether this partnership is working. Reading through your posts seems like it doesn’t, but it’s hard to really get an accurate picture without seeing you and the horse in action together.

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I didn’t see this quoted, so QFP

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You’re welcome! I’m glad it was helpful to someone. I have learned that with hyper vigilant and overreactive horses, it’s best to quit progressing up the training scale and work on those issues first.

Be it pain, fear, or anticipation of pain (My forelock issue).

It’s okay to dial it way back. A defensive anticipating ride is not good for a horse who needs confidence. If starting back at hand walking and re-backing is what your horse needs and you need to be more confident then do it.

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[ATTACH=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“full”,“data-attachmentid”:10639522}[/ATTACH]

“Suppleness - elasticity and freedom from anxiety.”

Pyramid-of-training_color.jpg

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Did you know that Beezie Madden used clicker training to get Judgement over his phobia of water? They didn’t show him for an entire year while they worked on it:

"Beezie and John knew they’d have to conquer Judgement’s water jump phobia to realize his full potential. “But the water issue wasn’t so much that he was trying to work against the rider–it was that he had a genuine fear of it. If you walked him up next to the water, his heart would pound,” Beezie said. They used positive reinforcement training–“clicker” training–to assure Judgement that water wasn’t to be feared. They didn’t show him for the whole first year they had him in their barn, while working on getting him confident about water jumps.

Judgement first showed with Beezie at the summer series in Spruce Meadows in 2001, where water jumps were frequently on courses. Their patience paid off, and Judgement tackled the water jumps and liverpools without problem. While they occasionally refresh Judgement’s clicker training, he’s become a reliable water jumper."

https://www.chronofhorse.com/article/show-jumping-horse-year-judgement-isf

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How qualified can they be if he is spooking at the same gate and doing the same evasive tactics when you increase his work for 6 years now?

It may be as simple as the horse not being happy in his job. He keeps telling you, but nobody is listening.

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hand raise I’m a trainer. Maybe not as experienced or upper-level as some of the others you’ve worked with (or even as some of the people posting in this thread, probably), but I’ve spent a lot of time working with difficult, quirky horses. A majority of my rides have been damaged goods that no one else really wanted to work with.

I have skimmed most of the posts in this thread, but have only read some thoroughly, so I apologize if I repeat things that have already been suggested or addressed.

@J-Lu, remember that when you post on COTH, it is out of your control as to who responds and what they say. I am certain that no one here would wish you or your horse any ill will, so take the good with the bad, use what you can, and don’t worry about the rest. But remember who wrote the first post, asking for input. So to answer your original questions:

… has anyone ridden a very smart but fearful horse whose brain goes a million miles an hour?
Yes, with variations. One was fearful but brain fried, so instead of a million miles an hour it was more like .0001 miles an hour. Dangerous. Another is freakishly smart, no real fear but all the antics, and clever clever. Another is a very intelligent creature but afraid or “afraid” of things at random and hypervigilant, with lightning fast reactions. There are others.

A horse who notices all things out of place and is fearful because of that?
Yep. Rearranging of furniture is not appreciated. But we manage.

Gets spookier when the work amps up even though he’s physically capable of doing it (and sometimes is excellent doing it - no physical issues)?
Maybe not spookier per say but more certainly more aware and sensitive, which is needed for higher quality, higher level work and is a direct result of that development. Occasionally a little of that awareness and sensitivity leaks out. Sometimes it all comes together and feels excellent, sometimes it doesn’t.

Can go through mental phases where s/he listens to your aids and others were s/he’s truly freaked out by something?
Yes, definitely. As I said, sometimes it comes together, and sometimes it doesn’t. If the horse listened to the rider’s aids all the time no matter the circumstances I’d probably be out of a job, as would many others.

Any suggestions about how to approach the training?
Many things come to mind. Most (if not all) have already been suggested in some way or another. I’ll throw out some ideas below. Without seeing you/him in action it’s hard to offer advice on something that is so “in the moment.”

Any supplements that worked for you?
Not specifically. Calming supplements are meh… Maybe Magnesium/Vit E for the ones who tend to be body tense. Maybe an ulcer preventive for the tummy. Otherwise, just a balanced diet and turnout, both of which I know you are already doing.

General suggestions or things to consider:
1 - This was discussed briefly early in the thread… Have you thoroughly checked out the area at, around, and beyond the GoD? Consider how that area looks and sounds to him when you approach while riding in the arena. Is something weird happening only sometimes as you ride by? Maybe he is catching a glare or reflection in the distance, or hearing an unusual sound? Pretend to be your horse for a minute and explore the possibilities of how the GoD and the farm around it is perceived by him. It doesn’t much matter how it is perceived by us.

2 - Can you set up cavaletti right by the GoD and work him over that? Could be on the lunge or under saddle. That would give him something else to look at and pay attention to over there, and might be a good way to have him focus naturally rather than fussing, fighting, or having to resort to poking him with the spur to get his attention. I wouldn’t set them up with perfect distances either… Make it challenging (but safe!) so that he has to sort out foot placement and length of stride. Change gaits and distances often.

3 - This also applies to lunging and riding. Very simple and correct upward transitions TOWARDS GoD or other scary thing, downward transitions AWAY from scary thing. Praise on both, make him feel like a rockstar, even for the smallest thing. This is to promote bravery and discourage fleeing.

4 - One note for you, OP. You mentioned being pretty brave and even cavalier in your riding, and not afraid of this guy, but sometimes I think that is a coping mechanism for what is actually a lack of confidence. And NO ONE would judge you for losing confidence, given the circumstances. I think some riders do get afraid, but to either hide it, cope with it, or resist it, we get “tough.” Sometimes we are able to pull off amazing feats despite (or maybe because of) being scared. In your case, you seem to be ready to throw down (for lack of better words, sorry) with this horse if need be, but is that because you actually are afraid of what he might do? That would be very reasonable. Anyway, I learned this about myself (not just in horses) and have worked hard to improve it so I thought I’d share.

As a side note, there are many talented, successful, “qualified” trainers out there who know surprisingly little about problem identification and problem solving. That may not be the case here, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

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@splitrockfarmnc That was a brilliant post and I’m saving it for myself, thank you for that!

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Thank you for this. I appreciate it.

FYI, my vet has watched us go because of his sometimes behavioral issues. Nada. He’s been seen by an internist since I’ve had him, and an opthamologist.

He’s always been spooky, from yearling on up. I didn’t fully realize the extent until he arrived as a coming 4 year old, because I was blind when I tried him. As I mentioned, we thought he’s have bloody ulcers on scoping, but no… We thought he’s have kissing spines revealed by radiographs, but no. We thought 2 chiros would have found major issues - but no. He doesn’t have any issue consistently.

Of note, he’s super affectionate with people and interactive, and wears “his emotions on his sleeve”. He really tries to please. Tries.

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Oh THANK YOU for your post!!

1 - This was discussed briefly early in the thread… Have you thoroughly checked out the area at, around, and beyond the GoD? Consider how that area looks and sounds to him when you approach while riding in the arena. Is something weird happening only sometimes as you ride by? Maybe he is catching a glare or reflection in the distance, or hearing an unusual sound? Pretend to be your horse for a minute and explore the possibilities of how the GoD and the farm around it is perceived by him. It doesn’t much matter how it is perceived by us.

Yes. Beyond the GoD is the playground, which he has spent alot of time in. It has obstacles such as a see-saw, mounts, branches to work one’s way through, mounds, a ditch, a tire with sand in the middle, a sandbox, etc. He has done a ton of work in here that he considers it comfortable to work in. But NOT to be turned out in, even when other horses are riding in the adjacent arena. Beyond this is Pasture E, which he’s been out in. Last fall, I locked the horses in the paddock and rode frequently through the playground and into pasture E to work the hill. He was initially alert but then just went with the work flow. I suspect he notes the sunlight on the gate he’s been through many times (to pasture E). He note’s the neighbor’s lawn mower. Other things, I can’t see. I graze him along the fence regularly. He’s juuuuuuust fine grazing.

2 - Can you set up cavaletti right by the GoD and work him over that? Could be on the lunge or under saddle. That would give him something else to look at and pay attention to over there, and might be a good way to have him focus naturally rather than fussing, fighting, or having to resort to poking him with the spur to get his attention. I wouldn’t set them up with perfect distances either… Make it challenging (but safe!) so that he has to sort out foot placement and length of stride. Change gaits and distances often.

He’s not always consistent going by the GoD. I have regularly put cones down there that he has to work around. I have put poles down there, and he’s really good with poles because they’ve been a part of refocusing his brain. Thanks for the reminder that they might be really useful there because he knows poles. In fact, he aims for ground poles when he’s trying to contribute to the ride. Unfortunately, our barn has mainly PVC pipes as poles and he knows they’ move it he hits them. He’s Mr. 90% effort. We might have heavier leftover poles from our recent freakishly well built round pen, I can check. He can’t move those (I’ll have a problem moving them!)

3 - This also applies to lunging and riding. Very simple and correct upward transitions TOWARDS GoD or other scary thing, downward transitions AWAY from scary thing. Praise on both, make him feel like a rockstar, even for the smallest thing. This is to promote bravery and discourage fleeing.

He’s easy to free-longe on the other side of the arena. I’ve been working with the GP rider/young horse rider who helped me restart him after months off between 3 and 4 years old. She has seen him in action, and she is a freakishly effective and kind rider/trainer. She suggested I longe him in side reins in front of the GoD and up and down the arena. I have. He get’s spooky in front of the GoD, but he knows “STAY OUT” so doesn’t bulge much into the circle. He really knows longe cues and is comfy in side reins.

Yes, E suggested I praise him verbally when passing the GoD and that has significantly relaxed him. I used to pat his neck, but he responds more to verbal AND physical cues.

4 - One note for you, OP. You mentioned being pretty brave and even cavalier in your riding, and not afraid of this guy, but sometimes I think that is a coping mechanism for what is actually a lack of confidence. And NO ONE would judge you for losing confidence, given the circumstances. I think some riders do get afraid, but to either hide it, cope with it, or resist it, we get “tough.” Sometimes we are able to pull off amazing feats despite (or maybe because of) being scared. In your case, you seem to be ready to throw down (for lack of better words, sorry) with this horse if need be, but is that because you actually are afraid of what he might do? That would be very reasonable. Anyway, I learned this about myself (not just in horses) and have worked hard to improve it so I thought I’d share.

Thanks for this!! I think I’m ready to throw down with this horse because I’ve already thrown down with this horse. These days, he’s ammenable to yelling at and wants to work. He’s a “one person horse”, gets disjointed if his person isn’t there. I’ve had to deal with that.
"

As a side note, there are many talented, successful, “qualified” trainers out there who know surprisingly little about problem identification and problem solving. That may not be the case here, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

Thanks, and I agree with you. I SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO agree with you and am really picky about trainers (I’ve worked with Olympians, one one of whom screwed up my horse’s tempi changes when riding before regionals). Most of the trainers I work with these days work with problematic or young horses, and have a logical approach, actual results with other horses and are kind.

Thank you for your reply!!! This is the kind of reply I wish I got weeks ago! So much to contemplate.

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Mine was super affectionate too. Nickered at me all the time. We could have full conversations. He gave good hugs. Liked me to hold my hands up and he’d stretch his neck out like a foal and lick me. He was at least 17.2h! Best training of his life happened after we treated his neck the first time. Then some months later he hurt himself in the field. And then there was one problem after another. He was great when he felt confident in his body. And he wound up toeing the line for another rider (took me a long time to find the right one) and being pleasant even if he didn’t feel totally good. But with me he yelled a lot. He learned I would listen and he got really upset when he felt I wasn’t. That’s where his behavior went because he was more of a fight horse than a flight one.

Other than the neck and the first small bout with ulcers (barely visible on scope), none of his pain made him spooky. We got the neck under control. It had made him bizarrely spooky. Not that he was bomb proof but the spooks otherwise made sense. He was also mr. 90% as you say (ok, maybe mr. 65%) and talking back or evading was more important to him than pleasing if it was important enough. Your guy seems to more get overwhelmed and his anxiety is on a hair trigger

It doesn’t cost a fortune to image the neck. At least you know one way or the other. Good you have ruled out KS.

Even the vet hospital that diagnosed the neck stuff thought it wasn’t clinical. He was seen by a sports medicine specialist and neurology specialist. So we messed around with acupuncture (which he loved but he also needed injections for it to matter), Legend, Previcox (which made him a total nutter). And we treated what looked like a ligament strain at his poll. Everything made him feel temporality better. It took a full months after neck injections but he was a different horse. I wished I’d been able to maintain that horse because he did have a kind heart. I got him from the breeder and knew his history. A top vet did my PPE and we specifically discussed his neck due to his size. Based on the clinical and 30+ other clean X-rays he thought looking at the neck was not necessary.

I also learned from that horse that the more the behavior became ingrained through all the subsequent physical issues, the more I had to work on his mental training. They are so good at remembering and so prone to anticipation, in good and bad ways.

He has probably also made you hypervigilant and you may not realize it. They do pick up on it.

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