I’ve long used these principles with my horse, LONG used them. Yes, the same principles are at work when loading.
He regularly pulls feet from the farrier. He’s fine for me to pick them, but pulls them from the farrier during trimming and especially nailing. Interestingly, he pulls for my farrier but not so much his assistant. We’ve been through this for 6+ years now. No radiograph findings. It’s just him. Thank you!
This horse hates flags. They scare the crap out of him. The NH trainer is as least as skilled as TT is, having watched and spoken with my trainer ( and TT) in person for many years. I’d put my NH trainer ahead of TT any day, he’s been doing this for longer. He’s also much more familiar with my horse and me.
I’m pretty confident in my basic training methods. I’ve had decades of quality dressage training and years of NH training geared towards this horse. There aren’t alot of unturned stones at this point.
Thank you!
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My horse chose the mounting block corner in the arena as his Gates of Doom the first year we were there. I spent the entire winter doing the stand until relaxed then go away, or the ignore it and ride forward, or the ride in the safe end and slowly get closer to the GoD, etc without success. He would improve during a ride and then sometimes get worse again in the same ride.
The second year he was fine for the first week or so, then gradually the GoD became a problem again. It remained a problem. I experimented with magnesium in the early spring and saw an improvement in his ability to focus, though the GoD still were a major concern.
The third year I found the theory of rabbits and several other Warwick Schiller videos that helped me understand what to do with my horse and how to adjust the techniques to him.
”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹
@xQHDQ asked about integrating the training with their regular dressage training because it seemed like there was a lot of time involved. In my horse’s case there was. There were a lot of days I just wanted to work on dressage but he needed rabbit practice/cognitive behavioral therapy. He needed to learn to let go of his rabbits himself. I couldn’t take them away from him. It wasn’t something he could learn in a week, but by the following spring the improvement was huge.
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Had many horses like this…esp the TBs. Physically they can excel at the movements, but stringing them all together, without a calming walk break in between…tricky. You could see the steam coming out of their brain. Lots of good suggestions…I am going to suggest…drop the spurs. Dump 'em. Not a comment on your leg position or abilities, but I find a ton of the sharp types really do not like any tickle from the spurs. When you must wear them to show, find something rounded and put them on at the last minute.
Other than that, get into a mental bubble…you and your horse, focus on him and nothing else. Ask him a ton of subtle questions all the time - doesn’t have to be big things that anyone can see, but soften, bend, push with this hind leg, then that the other hind leg, soften, straighten… With my TB if I was half way down the long side and I hadn’t engaged his brain with a tiny question, then by the short side he was thinking up ways to amuse himself which involved g-forces.
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Kind of what I’ve been wondering following this thread. Is he getting overwhelmed mentally as the work gets harder? Maybe looking for a reason to spook to get relief from pressure. Maybe it’s laziness, sore muscles, the work physically feels to hard, or he’s having “brain explosions” or a combination of some or all of those things.
Does he ever do cavaletti work or jump gymnastic exercises, or a small hunter type course? I’d be curious if anything changes when there’s obstacles involved/ something different to focus on/ he asked to carry his body a bit differently than for regular dressage training. Do you ever have gallop or hand gallop days where all he has to do is move forwards with rider in 2 point so he can really stretch out? A walking trail ride / hack day might be too boring for him (more spooking!), but I wonder if gallop days and/or adding a gymnastic jumping day into the weekly routine would be enough of a mental break to help him focus more on his formal dressage work on the other days.
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Thank you! My regular trainer is well versed in his stuff. We have typically used shoulder-in through the scary spots. Sometimes he’ll go right by on a straight line but his ears are on the Gate of Doom, sometime’s he’ll spook in shoulder-in. We haven’t figured out what changed. There is so little activity of things that change at and beyond the Gate of Doom.
Currently, we have a horse in full-on fly protection sheet and mask, we’ll see how that goes if it comes down to the gate.
Thank you!!
I ride in 1/2" Herm sprenger blunt edge spurs. They’re really, really mild, but I think without them he’d just ignore my leg. I’m considering 3/4" POWs or 3/4" round end Herm Sprengers to move my leg less (I have them both, might try one or the other). The Herm Sprengers are extremely mild. I originally rode without spurs but he started ignoring my leg. These seem to enforce to him that I’ll escatate the discomfort if he’s choosing not to listen. I call him “Mr. 90%” because he has a large lazy streak. I think he’d enjoy being a western pleasure horse until the moment he doesn’t. Spurs are most helpful, for example, when he’s looking at the gate when going to the left and wanting to counter-bend, I can ask first and then enforce that “no, you must keep the bend”. His attention comes to me because of the spur, but he still has an ear beyond the gate.
Thank you!
I do always ask him to do something every stride, even at the walk. He never goes around doing nothing. I appreciate your reminder and hearing about your experience with your TB.
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Yes, I wonder about your first paragraph. But as my trainer says, he’s just walk-trotting-cantering, it’s not that hard. He’s so behind the training for his talent and age. We balance the fact (fact) that easy work disengages his brain (he looks at things) but harder work makes him think, He melts a bit when he’s asked to do harder work and has still looks at things, according to him
Yep, he has done cavaletti and we used to do jumping exercises with the advanced level eventer who broke her collar bone when he bucked. She came back years later to teach us basic jumping exercises. He was great. We have regularly done clinics with the resident NH trainer to work on cows, new obstacles, trails, etc. He has done alot of cow work for something different. Our barn has an obstacle course. We’ve done Working Equitation clinics, including one recently. We used to go to QH shows with a friend for experience. We do trail rides around the neighborhood with others and a yearly clinic in the woods - I wouldn’t trust him in the woods alone. We have done hand gallop and just walking days. Hand gallop work is limited because he’ll spook at that speed if afraid and then buck if he’s feeling spooky. But I do hand gallop in the other areas of the arena. I’m teaching him collection, working, medium and extended gaits. There doesn’t seem to be a pattern.
Thank you for your suggestions!! I really appreciate them!
Thank you!!!
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Stupid question, but do you praise/reward when he gets it right, when it’s something harder?
OP Respectfully, this is not acceptable.
Your horse is being disrespectful to the farrier.
You CAN train him to stand for the farrier and frankly its irresponsible of you not to.
Re Spurs. The problem isn’t with your spurs.
If hes ignoring your aids you arent telling him much.
Re Bolting
He spooks to the point where he bolts and you 've either gotten unseated or bailed when you couldnt stop him.
I respect your experience and what you’ve achieved.
But you’ve got some serious holes.
“Correct training on the ground solves a lot of problems in the saddle” . Not mine. That’s why I quoted it.
If you are serious about solving this problem then do find a trainer who starts young dressage horses who can show you correct ground techniques for instilling good manners.
Then find a trainer who is willing to give you lunge lessons. If your horse is not safe enough then use the trainers. Work on a secure independent seat .
Why I am saying this?
Because if if I am interpreting your posts correctly, your horse bolts and unseats you and you come off or bail. A lot
I am not faulting you for coming off. But you keep coming off.
You seem to be taken unawares and thus, arent prepared especially since hes been doing this a long time.
Lunge lessons arent just for beginners, riders of all levels can benefit from working on their position and form.
Re Work
There may be a simple reason why he spooks when you start work.
It may be simple soreness not caused by an injury or a chronic condition. Check his back before you ride and if he acts tense or sore then gentle massage him.
Or maybe you arent warming him up long enough
You think hes ready to work but maybe he thinks he isn’t.
Dont assume that he will be sufficiently relaxed and his muscles loosened after you’ve warmed up. Some horses are ready to work after 15 minutes some need 20.
Learn how to feel what’s really going on with him .
Dont assume hes ready to work just because you’ve done x , y ,z for fifteen or 20 minutes that he should be ready.
Learn how to tell if hes ready and if he isnt then do more loosening work.
Final Thought
imo, Your horse is not listening to you because you arent listening to him.
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Yes. I frequently tap/pet him on the base of the withers with my right hand when he does well. I’m right-handed, working on tapping and petting with the left. He loves his withers being scratched and I’m fairly certain he associates this with goodness. I all out scratch the withers and reach behind to scratch the butt when we’re done with work and just walking. I’m good with my voice, too, to tell him when he is good in a soothing tone. He knows the difference in my voice.
Not a stupid question!
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That’s why he’s on Dormosedan for shoeing. We tried correcting him using several approaches. Please oh please tell me how we can train him to stand when all of our training failed. He stands just fine, he yanks his feet. You can’t see it when holding him. Please tell us what we should all do differently.
Re bolting: You’re 100% incorrect. I don’t post here about the times I stay in the saddle, I consult with trainers who know us. You don’t know him or me, so please point out what we’re doing wrong.
He was started by a good GP-level dressage trainer who starts horses (her own, she has bred for 30+ years). He dumped and hurt her. I was dumped on the lunge line twice when he was 4 with a USDF instructor and GP-level rider. You haven’t read all of my posts and don’t seem interested to. Please explain what we all did wrong.
You aren’t reading my posts. There is no simple reason for why he spooks when I saddle. Read my posts. Yea, he gets a long warm up. All of my horses do, I’ve ridden this horse for 7 years. Don’t think I don’t know him. Don’t suggest I’m not listening to him so he’s not listening to me. I appreciate your input but this whole post ignores all of my other posts, especially my first post.
Thanks for you comments.
OP, what is it that you want to hear?
That some of us have spooky horses too and it’s ok? I’m not sure of your aim here.
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j-Lu I think you have a wonderful open mind as regards to taking advice and I salute you for that. You clearly have done a lot already and are knowledgeable. And you sound as if you are surrounded by good people to help you.
The fact he isn’t overreactive to your spur and leg is interesting. My old TB for example - if I so much as clenched a thigh would take that as an aid to jump forward. He was a good boy and I adored him (he died at the age of 28 after a long good life and I miss him every day) bur…I had to accept that we could do all sorts of advanced work, but we were not going to be likely to do it in a test situation. Didn’t matter to me, he taught me tons. (Once bucked so hard he bucked me out of one of my tight Cavallo boots…zip split…boot went one way and I went the other). I laugh now about chasing him around the ring with one boot on and one boot lying there totally deceased.
I hope you get some suggestions somewhere that help you. I would say it sounds like a mental connection issue somehow. He is dropping you and thinking for himself (bad idea for horses!!)
If you knew or could get access to someone who rides young stallions and preps them for those whacky young horse classes…you might get some tips about keeping the horse focussed on you. I’m not a fan of young horse classes, but I do admire those people who can take 5 year old stallions into a crazy venue with other 5 year old stallions and somehow prevent mass carnage. They must have quite a few tricks that work. Yes forward is your friend, but there has to be more to it.
Without causing an insurrection on COTH…can you put him in a deep frame (not RK…cool it folks) but deep and round whenever you ask him. Nose to knees at least - without the curl back. Take him away from that alert…“up periscope” position and deep, round and forward. That’s got its place in any rider’s toolbox. I ride some breeding stallions on occasion that deep round and stop whinnying at the ladies…is a life saver. The humpy back on a stallion is never a good thing and good deep work lifts the back and softens the whole horse and gets his peabrain back in his head.
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I guess I meant immediately, as he does it right.
I learned a purring brrrp that a trainer used as a vocal good boy.
My horse would get seriously chuffed.
Way back when, I was frustrated with my horse who could be super spooky over simple things like the same jumps but re arranged, a deep hoofprint in the footing (often his own- facepalm), … It drove me nuts because often it would come out of the blue
I took everything back several levels, and focused on doing what he knew how to do, and was confident in, while praise, praise, praise…
I also kept a journal that detailed my small goals for each ride, then detailed what we did right.
It really helped change my pov, and made me much happier and able to deal with the hiccups.
I want to add, I had this horse for 24 years.
He never was unspooky. Fewer spooks yes, but even at like age 23, in a familiar,i ie his home indoor, another horse throwing some footing up against the wall sent him off.
He was never going to not be spooky.
That being said, I rode him with my kid on front of me, and also gave my kid leadline rides with a sidewalker and he was perfect. He knew when not to freak out.
OP I didnt post to aggravate you or be dismissive of your skills and experience.
RE : Farrier
I had one of those horses. She would stand fine.
But when she decided she had held her hoof up long enough, she would snatch it away. It wasn’t a pain issue. She just didnt want to do it .
One day the farrier was just ready to nail the brad in the shoe and she snatched her hoof out and it caught on his thigh. If he hadn’t been wearing his chaps his thigh would have been ripped open.
When I tried to discipline her, she got very agitated and it took a while for her to calm down. Eventually she got quiet and he was able to finish.
I was lucky. The farrier was an older laid back guy. He just shrugged and said he’d seen plenty worse.
I worked withd her and she did get better, especially when she stopped wearing shoes. She quit doing it after that.
To do this day I dont know what set her off. Sometimes she’d stand the whole time and doze
And I’d think wow, she’s finally coming around. And then out of the blue she’d do it again.
I got when her she was sixteen , so I have no idea
what she went through. A farrier may have quicked her and she never forgot it.
You posted that he does not snatch his hooves with you. That means he knows what he’ s supposed to do.
But, you are not trimming and shoeing. You dont need him to hold his hoof up that long.
Start holding his hoof up longer, and holding his legs like the farrier does.
Ask him to hold it up longer in little increments and see if that doesn’t help.
You dont have to stand directly at a horses head.
I stand to the side, where I can see his legs and intervene if I need to.
There are some horses that you can leave alone , but mine isnt one of them.
And really for the safety of everybody, you shouldn’t.
Anecdote
I was at a boarding one day and the farrier had one of the lesson horses in the cross ties. This was a calm reliable even tempered older horse who usually stood like a rock. One of the barn workers was taking out a boarders horse and it spun its hind end around and bumped into the older horse who startled . He kicked over the farrirrs stand and tool kit which spooked him and the other horse who started it.
Luckily the older horse calmed down quickly and the farrier was able to move out of the way.
It wasnt the fault of the horse or the farrier. Accidents will happen, you try to prevent them if you can.
Re: Spooking
You are right . I do not know you and I haven’t seen you ride .
And I know that you dont always come off. But it seems that you are surprised and not ready for it when it happens. He runs off with and you cant always control him.
Re; Lunge Lessons
I did say if you felt your horse wasnt safe to find another.
Lunge lessons arent some kind of riding detention where you get put if you screw up. It’s a way to work on your weaknesses or find places that need improvement.
It will help improve balance and muscle memory.
re Spurs.
I really wasnt trying to be snotty …
Spurs arent meant to gig the horse forward Spurs are meant to reinforce the leg aid in lateral work. Spurs in dressage are required with the double bridle to offset the action of the curb.
If your horse is not quick to respond, the correct use of the whip is better.
Also, check the position of the leg.
I’ve seen GP level riders who think behind the girth means up around the saddle pad.
Become conscious of where you are applying the spur. If your are out of position, he may not be able to feel it or understand what you want him to do.
Re Listening
I dont say that to make you feel bad. None of my comments are made to cause you pain or provoke you to anger.
Dressage tends to make overthinkers of us all.
We are so focused on our inner monologue that we ignore important but more subtle input.
I am very guilty of this. My brain is so busy with the stream of instructions I’m sending my body, I dont process the feedback my horse is sending.
Anecdote
I had hit that plateau where I was not only not improving but I was starting to regress. My horse kept cutting off the corners on the right rein . And it kept getting worse and nothing I tried to do helped
I didnt have an instructor at the time or it would have been fixed real quick .
The problem was me.
I was using the prescribed aids but I was using them incorrectly and I was out of position. Collapsed hip and shoulder, reins too l long, hand crossing over the withers . Body turned the wrong way.
AND I DIDNT KNOW. I felt correct. I thought I was doing what I was supposed to .
my horse was doing what I told him, but I was telling him wrong.
I don’t remember when but I started watching videos and started analyzing what the riders hands were doing .
Maintaining the correct contact and rein length has always been my greatest weakness.
But after I watched and studied a lot of riders of all different levels, I realized what was going on and started focusing on my position , but also being aware of and feeling the what’s going with my horse.
I submit that you are so focused on your ride, the exercises, what you are supposed to be doing, that are thinking your ride instead of feeling your ride.
Without seeing you ride I cant say what you are or not doing to set your horse off.
You attribute it to the Gate of Doom.
I’m just saying that you may want to allow the possibility that your horse is giving you signals but you are missing them so he feels driven to the point of spooking, and bolting.
This doesn’t mean that you are not a good rider or that you dont care about your horse. Quite the opposite.
You are a much better rider than I’ll ever be.
I have made a lot of mistakes, none of which involved g forces, thankfully. So my comments are coming from a place of passing on what I’ve learned from my own experiences and hoping that I can help.
BTW You have some serious gastrointestinal fortitude and I admire you immensely for your loyalty to your horse and your toughness.
I couldnt deal with a horse like this, I dont have the courage or the talent.
Good luck to you. I hope you find a solution. It doesn’t have to be mine, but I do sincerely hope my posts will be useful.
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The discussion on young stallions brought up another thought - only because it might be relevant to neck position. This might seem out there, but has your horse ever had PEMF treatment? Our barn got a machine last year, and my jump trainer has noticed a big change in her young stallion since. More focused on his work. PEMF is supposed to promote more rapid muscle recovery, and it also seems like it helps him release tension in the base of his neck. My mare, who also tends to hold a lot of tension in the base of her neck, and gets very high headed when worried, has also progressively gotten more comfortable with a lower, more relaxed neck position earlier in the ride.
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I second the suggestion that you have someone video you. But have them do it on the sly, so YOU don’t know it’s being done. I say this because if you know it’s happening, you won’t ride like you normally do.
Also, it sounds like he has a great memory, use it and the random reward system to your benefit! SInce you have access to great NH trainer, I"m sure they can help you come up with novel ways to randomly reward him for being good at the GoD.
Also, please do consider that this may not be what he likes to do. Just because he has talent doesn’t mean he likes it. I get that he’s your horse and you can do whatever training you like, but he’s telling you something. Maybe he just loves a joke?
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If you have a horse that won’t accept your leg on, you need to ride until you can ride with the leg on.
If you have a horse that rides with the leg on then you ride so as it can ride without your leg on.
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