Good thread ! I really understand getting a bit defensive on this board (or anywhere) when you ask for help and maybe feel a bit of criticism creeping in.
Remember few people ever do what you’re doing and big ups to you for that 
IME anyone who does this thing long enough will meet a horse that challenges their ability and makes them reassess their method.
I have , several times ,but have also been lucky enough to go through from baby to FEI so I feel it’s worth it. Just had to keep learning and adapting to new horses because that’s what I TRY to do with all of them.
There is no magic bullet but there are many small magic seeming adaptations.
One big one for me has been to understand that the horse can’t help his automatic reflexive reactions. It’s not deliberate, it’s physiology. Some horses adrenalize quickly and powerfully, it’s an amygdala thing and we’ve bred them to be that way.
Another has been to realize that overshadowing a spook with a strong aid works ‘‘sometimes’’ depending on how big the reaction is and how likely I am to stay on and control it. In putting a horse in very scary situations you risk the horse developing ever more quick dangerous and uncontrollable reactions that eventually no one can control, so there’s that.
Therefore I avoid flooding situations where I can’t control how adrenalized the horse is going to become and then hulk out. It hurts even though so far I stay on, my body aches from the effort and the horse gets at the very least a huge bang in the mouth and the whip spurs etc have to be punishingly strong to overshadow a really big reaction.
Another helpful thing is to be really really really sure never to punish the horse for a fear reaction or for responding to my aids. For example, no extra kick when he’s already moved forward , no extra rein aid when he’s responded even a little bit. Give the horse time to learn what will bring release , 3 seconds seems to work well. This has really changed my guys whole demeanor. He was hyper vigilant even in the paddock, now he’s often relaxed even in the scary arena. Consistent ask release is crucial, timing is crucial.
This is a horse described as ‘‘the most anxious horse i’ve ever seen’’ by a 3star eventer.
I accept him for who he is and me for who I am and respect both our limitations and abilities and do everything I can to avoid these explosive panic reactions and falling off! I have to remind myself that the horse is not a volunteer in this situation. It’s my responsibility to make his life as fear and punishment free as I can.
So sorry for the long post, all the luck and best wishes. It’s so difficult and not what anyone wants to deal with, but here we are!
OP, I totally get where you are. I am concerned that maybe you are backing off and coddling this horse more than is necessary. Two things – you say he hates this spot in the arena for 6 years. I think you need to dig in and make him work hard in that area when he chooses to spook. If that means putting him on a canter circle or a longe line at the canter (if you don’t feel safe up), if he wants to spook he can work. Make him work HARD and then when he is giving to it and loses interest in spooking, work him a bit more and then let him rest by the object. Don’t let him rest except by the object. He’ll learn to love it soon enough. IT’s the same as what you do to cure a barn sour horse. The only rest is when they are at the place they didn’t originally want to be.
another question is that you said he hates flags. He doesn’t get to choose that, IMO. I don’t think your NH person has spent enough time with him, because goodness knows I have had a couple spooky-dangerous horses, and the best thing I did was invest in the NH time as much as they need to learn to deal with life without over-responding to stimuli. My filly took 6 months and yeah, she wasn’t doing dressage and we’ve had to rework that part, but gosh that is easy when her mind is in the right place. And would have been virtually impossible “before.” Send him off for 90 days if you have someone you really trust. Still being afraid of flags is not at all acceptable in a horse that is properly started in this way. This is not a criticism at all – I had a few former horses I wish I’d done this with, in retrospect.
Good luck.
Thanks, but your post did come across as dismissive. I’ve answered so many “easy fixes” on this thread and in real life. My vet, barn owners, quality trainers understand that he’s a very quirky horse.
Re farrier: we’ve tried real discipline, we’ve tried treats. A trainer held for the shoeings. We tried working in between farriers. He has always jerked his feet. He can have soft eyes and still jerk his feet. I use probably the best farrier in the area and he was hinting at firing us because hey, he doesn’t need to deal with it. He’s in his 50s and has had back and hip problems so I understand his concern. My vet is on board with the dormosedan for this horse. She normally recommends tapering the dose but understands that my situation is not a candidate for that. We have tried lengthy use of many approaches. I am very much not happy paying for drugs on top of farrier bills. This horse needs shoes. He went a few cycles without hind shoes and my vet recommended he go back in them. I had a feeling because I originally had him barefoot for as long as I could. No one wants a farrier bill.
Yes, I came off last week during a week long trainer clinic. I consulted the head trainer, who used to train my horse, and the reply was “we all come in circumstances like that”. We had a chat with the other trainers about a time he rode my horse and went to the hospital. He had the horse in full and part-time training for a year. He specializes in difficult horses and has lots of such stories. You don’t seem to think that I’ve taken his training and education very seriously.
Thanks. I am pretty educated about spurs. Always open to new ideas but resent being told to “just ditch 1/2 Herm Sprengers”
I’m likely the opposite of you. When I have problems, I ask people. I ask trainers. I ride in front of different trainers. I have trainers ride my horse. I used to take clinics with local, national and international dressage riders (including olympians) due to where I lived. I ask vets (he’s been seen by an internist in addition to his regular vet). I seek information I can logically apply. This horse has defied traditional approaches sometimes. The key is “sometimes”. He can be really great…until he has an issue with something that can’t be identified. ALL trainers I’ve worked with in NC, including GP-level trainers, understand that he’s quirky. We’ve been a demo rider/horse for the USDF trainer certification because the trainer hosting this used to train us. We’re not lacking in professional input.
My dressage trainer rides him and feels the same hesitation at the Gate of Doom. He has spooked with her. But she loves riding him because of his talent and his general agreement with the rider when he’s not afraid of something. He’s great to ride when not afraid and she competed through FEI another horse very similar. The NH trainer watched him really spook at the GoD last week and said he was watching and saw nothing wrong on my part and suggested some exercises that didn’t work (even he can admit that). I can explain his approach. He always keeps an eye on us because he cares and he had this horse in training for a year. He’ll tell me when I’m doing something wrong point blank (that’s his personality). I have this horse because he’s great most of the time. In fact, I can free-longe him in the arena and he stays in a circle and responds to voice commands. He has come a VERY long way.
I came to COTH to supplement this knowledge, hence my first post. Thank you very much for your input and how you explained your input. Yes, I got defensive, and I’m sorry. I have a team involved with this horse who have helped me. This horse is mostly a great, affectionate, horse with great gaits, but quirks. I didn’t sell him as a 4-6 year old because I couldn’t. Now, he’s mostly good but amps up his spookiness with work. Professional trainers have told me this. Professional trainers who have watched my riding and ridden him. That’s the point of this thread.
Thank you, I consider all posts carefully and have combed over previous posts regularly.
Thank you.
He isn’t consistent in this area. On his spooky days, he’ll walk past it just fine. Maybe trot and canter by it just fine for the first, say 18 times. Time 19, he’ll slam on the breaks, shake and have a real problem. I’ve done things like dismount at the gate to teach him that the gate is a good place. When he spooked last week, I got up, undone one rein and longed the crap out of him in front of the gate by the rein length. He has had extensive work in front of this gate. My attitude is “try to kill me and I’ll kill you”. I’m not afraid of him.
His problem is that he’s so fine to work when he’s not afraid. Sure, he can longe in front of that gate because, I think, he sees me. On his back, he doesn’t and considers that “he’s going first”.
Oh, this horse hates flags despite his work. Despite his work. I have used Remount Horsemanship and the vast majority of his horses accept flags. Here’s a video of this horses reaction to flags after weeks of training 6 years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLu5r4jcHhU
Oh, this was 2-3 weeks after he had him in training and introduced the western saddle. This horse was professionally bred, well raised, started by a dressage professional who started he own horses for over 30 years.
You can see this trainer’s approach. You can watch his newer videos to see his approach.
Watched the video. 2-3 weeks is nothing and that horse is not at all comfortable in his own skin. At all. Many horses are better one day than another but when that happens, they still need to be safe and tractable. Your horse isn’t and you are making excuses for him.
My filly took 6 months at the NH trainer. I went at 30 and 90 days and could see it wasn’t enough to obtain the relaxation needed for dressage. Now she is a different horse. Today it was finally warm enough to open up the windows in my indoor. She looked a bit up near one window on the longe, so she got a nice long canter with many trot transitions there and when she decided she was ready to focus, she was great under saddle. It is a work in progress.
I think this would only work on a coddled horse. A horse who is truly scared/nervous/anxious at a certain spot will just get more scared.
Not saying one way or the other what is up with the OP’s horse.
The more you talk about your horse, the more he sounds like mine. :lol:
Very interesting thread! I have one that is similar and I do notice he gets spooky when pressure is put on him. He tends to be hard to get forward and then starts acting up when you ask him to really work. Like your horse, he has no physical issues at all.
@J-Lu, you mentioned a trainer saying he was hyper-vigilant. Mine is the same and it seems he gets upset when asked to focus on me instead of being able to keep an eye on what is happening around him. That was especially the case at shows or new places. My horse is also quite herd bound and that adds to the problem or may be the root of it all.
I really don’t have any good advice for you because I’ve never really found a perfect solution for my horse. A year with a good trainer did not change his behavior. My horse has been this way since birth. Sometimes, I call him “Picard” because he is quick to scream RED ALERT. Not surprisingly, he has siblings that are all quirky, too.
I skimmed the thread and did not see any mention of your horse’s bloodlines. (You stated he is a warmblood.) You probably already know there are some lines that have a more difficult temperament. I know quite a few.
Thank you!
He’s always been hypervigilant, which made me inquire to the breeder if he was proud cut. She was quite not helpful to my direct inquiries, as she told the person who started him and also imported his half brother at the same time/same shipment who went on to win the 70 day stallion test that I was problematic in my questioning. That’s the trainer he bucked off and was hurt. She didn’t want to hear about how difficult this horse was. Clearly, he’s an outlier in her breeding program.
He’s by Freestyle, out of Pacific Sabra, bred by Dreamscape Farm. They bred a bunch of these, resulting in his full brother Farscape, a hunter stallion, Freestyle is known to pass on good temperament. My horse was inspected and branded Westfalen. An outlier.
Thanks, @J-Lu. Guess I skimmed your responses too quickly! He does seem to be an outlier. There is nothing in his bloodlines (dam or sire) that would be an indication of a difficult temperament. Every so often, you get one that is different.
Thanks, that’s genetics.
I’m sorry if I came across as dismissive.
I can tell that you do care and that you have invested quite a bit in trainers and other experts trying to find the key to solving this problem .
I hope you do.
@J-Lu, I studied genetics in college, so understand there can be outliers. Your guy may very well be an anomaly. Or, he is a throw-back to that one horse in his pedigree that was difficult. His temperament is not your fault and nobody should criticize you. Anyone who has had horses for a long time gets “that one.” You are asking the right questions and care about your horse.
The video posted shows a lot of problems in the methodology of that trainer at that time. The horse is consistently high headed and fearful ,which is not resolved before progressing to the next step, resulting in outright fear flight behavior.
Horses do not forget this stuff and it’s best avoided.
It IS the trainers job to relax the horse prior to progressing, not as he says to ‘‘shut him down’’ but to make sure the horse has been able to accept the stimulus prior to progressing.The only thing horses learn when adrenalized to this extent is more flight behavior, they are wired that way. Some horses don’t get this worried and can habituate, not this horse. It seemed to me the trainer was surprised by and unprepared for this horses reactions.
You don’t get to say ‘‘this should have been done before’’ it wasn’t, so do it now, do it before it turns into fear flight.
The fact that the horse relaxed and lowered his head when the trainer touched him demonstrates IMO that this horse would probably be much better trained with reassurance and attention given to his mental state, instead he’s pushed past his ability to cope into a bucking fit.
The second thing I noticed in the video is the conflicting demands made of this horse, he is asked both to move away from the flag and to approach the flag.
Is he to avoid the flag by moving away (chasing) or ignore it because the pressure on the halter is greater than the pressure from the flag ? This comes later, after he is relaxed with the flag and has learned firstly to lower his head and secondly to move away from the flag if asked and then ‘maybe’ to ignore it in response to a greater pressure when he’s calm and accepting and understands.
I know it’s long ago and that you’ve progressed with him, but unless and until the horse learns to lower his head and relax instead of bolting bucking and shying when he gets scared I can’t see how you will avoid more of the same.
Maybe just try, for say 10 days, just teaching him to lower his head on request and then asking him to do it whenever he gets worried ? Maybe it will help…What have you got to lose ?
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This video is well after the horse was professionally started for months. I know it it difficult to present a trainer’s approach because it is so easy for armchair internet peeps to criticize. This trainer is a professional who takes his time with horses. My point was to show this horse’s response to flags, which he still doesn’t like. Flags are not the problem. Can we move past this point?
Didn’t I say this video was within the first few weeks of the trainer working with him, and didn’t I say that he had him in training for a year? Did I not say he was professionally started and re-started by professional dressage peeps and an advanced level eventer prior to this video? Do people read the posts before commenting? I’m sorry and I appreciate your comments, but we seem to be retreading ground here. He doesn’t get to put his head in the air. He never could under saddle.
I’m just jumping in here and haven’t read all the posts, but my horse is the same when it comes to someone on the ground vs in the saddle. He’s had a lot of quiet, easy, clicker training type work from the ground, which he loves, so is generally pretty confident when anyone is on the ground with him. But, when I get into the saddle he’s much less confident.
This is something I’d probably never see if I took lessons or rode with others, because he’s much calmer when he’s with other horses or people.
I ride by myself though, so will often tie another horse next to the ring in the scary area, so that I can enjoy riding a calm horse without having to spend half the ride on habituating him to whatever it is that’s bothering him.
As an aside, I did eventually realize that a lot of the trouble I was having with clicker training him to go out to a target was way more about having to go closer to the scary parts of the ring by himself, than about not understanding what he needed to do to earn the treats.
OP
Do you usually ride alone when you are schooling?
Dressage riders tend to ride alone unless they are at a large boarding stable where you have to share the ring , otherwise you couldnt ride.
Is there someone in your barn that can ride in the ring with you?
Someone who has a nonreactive horse that wont be bothered if your horse spooks?
Could your trainer ride another horse in the ring while you are schooling?
Maybe you could do some schooling with such a rider , playing follow the leader. With each of you taking turns being the leader.
(The other rider isnt there to babysit you.
They are there to give your horse a model to follow.
Plus schooling with someone can be a fun break .
Dressage can be isolating. We are expected to work alone. )
I’ve heard of people using a steady Eddie type of horse to teach fearful horses to load onto a trailer .
Or a seasoned trail horse teaching a young horse how to cross creeks or go through deep water.
Perhaps having another horse working with him will give him a sense of security which you havent , through no fault of your own , been able to do.
Of course, this can create another problem of making him herd bound, but you are an intelligent person and if you plan carefully you can prevent it from happening before it starts.
This actually may have the added benefit of getting him inured to the organized mayhem called the warmup ring at shows, and then having to be alone in the actual class.
I have two anecdotes:
- I’ve worked with a good handful of young horses, mostly hunters & jumpers, but do not have the same dressage experience as you (goal of Bronze medal maybe 2023 if mare wants to cooperate ha!). I have a nice mare who can be a bit hyper vigilant, but is coming 5 now and much, much more rideable despite being “behind schedule” due to my schedule, although she still strongly dislikes indoor rings :rolleyes:.
She is mentally sharp so I had to get more tools in my tool box when I made a bad decision in picking a boarding situation for her which had increased her reactivity significantly as a 2-3 year old. I ended up getting a subscription to the Warwick Schiller website/videos. I’ve just got to say that the video you posted at the trainers is quite opposite of Warwick’s videos - Warwick is much more methodical in completing & getting the horse comfortable with the first step before asking anything else from the horse. I wouldn’t have even put the saddle on in the roundpen with your horse being so tense with his head way up, step one would have been get him to lower his head & relax in the roundpen, I’m not at all surprised he exploded. I didn’t follow Warwick’s program 100% but I picked out keep exercises that I thought would help and still use a couple of the very basic ones to “check in” with my mare. I would highly recommend watching his videos.
For spooky areas I use those as a resting place and maybe incorporate a bit of baby lateral work into it. Working trot down quarter line, downward transition to walk with leg yield toward scary spot and nice scratch/rub with inside hand, back to trot once past the scary spot. Might not make it all the way to the scary spot on the first time, rinse, repeat, ask for a little more.
My mare is different than your horse in that when the work gets harder she focuses on me more so I have to worry more about her staying challenged than anything.
- My older TB is not spooky at all. But gets anxious when the work gets harder, if he was a hyper vigilant horse he would absolute be spooking at nothing. He has neck arthritis and this is more noticeable when he’s due for injections. He looks great in the field. He’s semi-retired (hunter paces, trails, etc) so is not getting his neck injections and does not have an issue unless I start asking for more consistent engagement. I would absolutely x-ray the neck.
TLDR: Watch Warwick Schiller’s videos & X-ray the neck
Good luck!
