Horse Falling Down While Asleep??

[Riley0522]

So recently, BO and myself and a few of the barn girls have noticed my horse going down to his knees when he’s asleep. I’ve never seen him full out fall, but it’s kind of scary. Today he did it in the cross ties while he was dozing off while I was tacking him up. Pretty much went down to his knees and almost all the way down, almost snapping the cross ties. What causes this?? Does anyone else have a horse that does this?

I found this video on Youtube, and this is pretty much what he does, just not nearly as graceful, he literally practically falls to his knees:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sThUgIYNezw

I’m really nervous he’s going to completely fall down and hurt himself. I never see him lay down anymore, he used to in his stall when he was kept at my neighbor’s, now he’s out 24/7 with a run-in and a buddy.

[tikihorse2]

Could it be the heat? If it’s anything like what we’re having in Wisconsin, I seriously wonder about that–I’ve seen some horses at the barn having little episodes of dozing off in the crossties and jerking awake.

Maybe narcolepsy? I knew a school horse who had it. Scared the heck out of everyone when he’d go to his knees.

If you’re really concerned, talk to the vet.

Kim

[stryder]

How long ago did you move him? And is his buddy really his buddy? Some horses don’t lay down to sleep unless they feel secure.

[Riley0522]

[QUOTE=stryder;4992260]
How long ago did you move him? And is his buddy really his buddy? Some horses don’t lay down to sleep unless they feel secure.[/QUOTE]

He’s been at this barn for 3 years now, and they are absolutely buddies…you can throw 2 hay piles out and they will share one. They also sleep side-by-side.

This kind of started all of a sudden…noticed it once or twice in April/May, so I don’t think it’s the heat because it didn’t get really hot here until June. He’s out 24/7, and in the old situation he was with 1 mare and they could come in/out of their stalls as they pleased. I have had him in one other boarding situation where he was in his stall most of the time, and got about 6-7hrs of individual turnout a day. He would lay down in situations 1+2 in his stall, but I’ve never seen him down while outside. He is a nervous/spooky horse and has a history of ulcers, so I ideally don’t want him to be in his stall because if no one else is in he weaves/screams, but I wonder if he’s more comfortable in there.

[JCS]

I wish I could remember where…maybe Equus?..But I recall reading an article about this. When a horse does not feel safe/comfortable enough to lie down to sleep, he does not get a deep enough rest and will start falling down like you describe. Can you try putting him in a stall for a couple of nights?

[joiedevie99]

If it only happens when he’s being girthed, there is a nerve that can be pinched by the girth and cause this.

If it happens when he isn’t wearing tack, I’d be concerned that he wasn’t sleeping. It could be a lack of comfort with his turnout mate, a lack of soft ground to lay on, or some kind of pain keeping him up (ulcer, arthritis, etc.).

[Riley0522]

It happens outside while he’s dozing in his paddock for the most part, today was the first time it happened while he was being tacked. He did it one time when I was on him (we were standing for about 20 minutes chatting and he dozed off).

I feel like he’s probably not getting sleep…hope it’s not d/t pain. He doesn’t seem ulcery to me, it’s pretty obvious when he is…won’t be still ever, out of control spooking, appetite goes, etc and he has no real reason to have ulcers back; since we did 2 months of Gastrogard, his diet consists of Alfalfa pellets, ration balancer, rice bran and Ugard, and as much hay as he’ll eat.

I may talk to BO about leaving him in for a few nights (w/a preventative dose of GG) and see how it goes. Thanks guys! Anymore experiences with this definitely welcome.

[Chall]

Maybe he needs a bigger stall and a mat in the stall, plus those plastic “rails” they sell that go around the stall that prevent a horse from getting cast.
Does he have a quiet stall and does he like his neighbors?
I’d put out old hay (not musty hay) in the field, so he can lie down outside.
Oh, and how old is he?

[Riley0522]

[QUOTE=Chall;4992385]
Maybe he needs a bigger stall and a mat in the stall, plus those plastic “rails” they sell that go around the stall that prevent a horse from getting cast.
Does he have a quiet stall and does he like his neighbors?
I’d put out old hay (not musty hay) in the field, so he can lie down outside.
Oh, and how old is he?[/QUOTE]

He’s 16. He is never inside for longer than an hour, to eat breakfast and dinner, but his stall is only 10x10…he’s 16.3, ~1150lbs (narrow TB). Other than meals, he’s out in a dirt turnout with a run-in and a buddy pretty much 24/7. I’ve never seen him lay down outside, in a stall only so after reading these replies I’m considering trying him in at night, but his stall is way too small.

[ShadesOfBay]

This may or may not apply to your situation, but a friend has a TB mare that was doing the exact same thing, and it turned out that between her feed and the numerous supplements she was being fed, she was getting too much Magnesium, which was causing her to literally fall asleep & fall down onto her knees. When some of the supplements were removed, specifically ones with Magnesium, the condition went away.

Strange but true!

[classicsporthorses]

My old gelding has done this for years. We are told is a “form” if you could say it that way, of narcolepsy. Even in the cross ties we have to watch him b/c hell start to fall asleep and he’ll buckle down. Heck even standing in a line up at a show we keep an eye on him and tap him if he starts to wobble a bit.

Usually he will catch himself, outside I mean, but I have seen Baron go right down to his knees with his butt in the air and be that way for a minute or two, eyes shut. He then rights himself and starts all over again. He does not do in every time he sleeps, which he usually does standing up, just enough over the years for us to notice and keep an eye on him.

He’s never hurt himself and can get up and down fine. He’s 22 now and still doing great.

[naturalequus]

[QUOTE=JCS;4992291]
I wish I could remember where…maybe Equus?..But I recall reading an article about this. When a horse does not feel safe/comfortable enough to lie down to sleep, he does not get a deep enough rest and will start falling down like you describe. Can you try putting him in a stall for a couple of nights?[/QUOTE]

I read the same article (it was Equus) and it was due to sleep deprivation. The article was specifically in regards to show horses who were unable to/not sleeping properly at the shows (particularly if they were in tie stalls or simply due to the different environment) and thus were suffering from sleep deprivation and exhibiting the same behaviour OP described. Horses cannot go into REM unless they are lying down flat so if they are not lying down for whatever reason, they will not get sufficient deep sleep time and will start to suffer the consequences of sleep deprivation.

Here’s one article describing how horses sleep:
http://www.equisearch.com/horses_care/health/behavior/eqzzz629/

Not that it couldn’t be something else, but sleep deprivation would be the first thing I would check/attempt to resolve!

[hollyhorse2000]

he may not be laying down to sleep because it’s too painful to get up. Is he having arthritis issues?

I’ve seen a horse with narcolepsy. It’s very frightening.

I’d definitely bring in a vet at this point. They can fall and scrape themselves up pretty good and can be a bit of a danger to be around as well.

[Riley0522]

Thanks for all the replies! I’m hesitant to say it’s narcolepsy because he will be sleeping for a few minutes before this ever happens. I’ve never seen him awake one moment and falling over the next. I have not seen him go all the way down, just nervous that he will. All I’ve seen (and BO, etc) is him go down to his knees, then “wake up” and right himself.

[QUOTE=ShadesOfBay;4992441]
This may or may not apply to your situation, but a friend has a TB mare that was doing the exact same thing, and it turned out that between her feed and the numerous supplements she was being fed, she was getting too much Magnesium, which was causing her to literally fall asleep & fall down onto her knees. When some of the supplements were removed, specifically ones with Magnesium, the condition went away.

Strange but true![/QUOTE]

This is really interesting to me because I just started him on SmartCalm Ultra (10,000mg Mag) 4 days ago! And now that you mention it, we noticed it a lot about 2 months ago when I tried Quiessence on him (which did nothing to take the bite out of his spooks). If this is truly causing it, maybe I will experiment and cut back the amount of SmartCalm he gets. It seems to be working otherwise knock on wood…no huge explosions today during our ride, so it’d really stink because obviously my horse’s safety comes first!

[DMK]

@Riley0522;4994035

Thanks for all the replies! I’m hesitant to say it’s narcolepsy because he will be sleeping for a few minutes before this ever happens. I’ve never seen him awake one moment and falling over the next. I have not seen him go all the way down, just nervous that he will. All I’ve seen (and BO, etc) is him go down to his knees, then “wake up” and right himself.

No, really you are going to have to learn to say it is narcolepsy. Not full blown scary narcolepsy, but it is a form of it. As others have said, it’s sleep deprivation - lack of REM sleep specifically. Horses need very little REM sleep (which they get while lying fully recumbent) but it is just as critical in horses as in any other mammal.

Typically you will see this issue in a horse that cannot or will not lay down maybe due to age/pain, BUT it can happen to horses who can get up and down, but for whatever reasons do not or will not relax enough to go into REM sleep. I had a big (17’3) gelding who would. not. lay. down in a stall - 4 years and his stable rug never needed more than the dust shook off. He would hit a puddle at a dead run and do a shoulder roll into it and I once found him fully recumbent in a creek - including his head! Clearly getting up and down was not an issue, it was the stall and to a lesser extent he also never felt that comfortable with REM sleep in a pasture (alone or with a companion). So he buckled. Crossties, tacking up, in his stall. Same thing, he’d catch himself before he went down. It got better when I switched him to 24/7 t/o, but I noticed when the ground was cold/damp it would flair up again and I figured he wasn’t that big a fan of laying down, and didn’t do it if it wasn’t 100% comfy.

If a horse suddenly starts showing REM narcolepsy signs, and you know they are still getting up/down, maybe check and see if pasture dynamics have changed and maybe the horse used to feel comfortable laying down, but now does not due to personality conflicts, etc.

[jewll27]

my guy does this too esp in the summer. He dozes, knees buckle, and he almost falls over. Today he did it with me on his back for the first time. But only in the summer does he do this. He does not lay down, ever. He rolls, but until recently went down to roll and basically fell to the ground when he got close to the ground. Hes gotten much better at this and now apparently lays down to roll like a normal horse, but he still wont lay down.

[Riley0522]

@DMK;4994257

No, really you are going to have to learn to say it is narcolepsy. Not full blown scary narcolepsy, but it is a form of it. As others have said, it’s sleep deprivation - lack of REM sleep specifically. Horses need very little REM sleep (which they get while lying fully recumbent) but it is just as critical in horses as in any other mammal.

I’m not ruling out narcolepsy, totally, and I am going to call the vet and chat with him about it. I understand this could be a mild form of narcolepsy, just not the full blown pass-out and drop narcolepsy that we all think of. When I read the Mag suggestion, it just made so much sense because it started all of a sudden around May…I don’t remember the exact time, but that was right when we started the Quiessence (Mag supp). He was on that until about June and I stopped worrying about it, because I stopped noticing it. Yesterday was the first day I’d seen him do it in awhile, 3 days after starting a new supp with Mag.

No pasture dynamics have changed. He’s been turned out in the same turnout for 3 years (on 24/7 turnout), his turnout buddy has been the same since October. His paddock has been muddy the past 2 days, but it was also REALLY muddy for the entire winter, until we froze, and I never noticed this behavior then.

I was there for a decent chunk of time today, and he was sleeping on the cross ties and didn’t go down.

[SouthwestRerider]

I had a mare that also fell to her knees when she dozed while standing. She was a very nervous mare who NEVER relaxed or appeared to feel safe. She had scars on the front of her fetlocks. She would go down and roll, but I never saw her sleep or snooze lying down, day or night. Sleep deprived.

[Foxtrot_s]

There have been numerous threads on this. Just never leave the horse tied up alone, tie on a breakaway string. My horse had scars on her knees and fetlocks.
Upsidedown bellboots helped. Neoprene boots get to hot and would harbour stuff. It is distressing but there’s comfort in numbers - it is very common. Up the road where there are a lot of retirees being boarded, half the horses are like that. As they get older, it is hard for them to lie down and the creaky old things are probably not very comfortable lying down. Lots of theories why it might start, esp. on younger horses…being alpha, etc.

[morgonmadness]

[QUOTE=DMK;4994257]
No, really you are going to have to learn to say it is narcolepsy. Not full blown scary narcolepsy, but it is a form of it. As others have said, it’s sleep deprivation - lack of REM sleep specifically. Horses need very little REM sleep (which they get while lying fully recumbent) but it is just as critical in horses as in any other mammal.[/QUOTE]

I know this is a zombie thread, but in researching this topic ('cuz my own guy went down on his knees in the cross ties today) I am compelled to post. Though the symptom might be the same (falling asleep at unexpected times and in unexpected places), my understanding is that sleep deprivation and narcolepsy are not the same thing. “Sleep deprivation is often confused with narcolepsy in the horse, yet narcolepsy is associated with disorder of a specific neuropeptide (hypocretin) that regulates sleep and wakefulness.” From The Horse, Sleep and Sleep Disorders in Horses, AAEP 2008. Maybe this link will even work …
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/22991/sleep-and-sleep-disorders-in-horses-aaep-2008

So it’s perfectly legitimate to choose not to use the term narcolepsy to describe what the OP, and most posters here, discussed.