Horse Feed

[Amber_M]

Use FeedXL. Was INVALUABLE when I was in this situation. https://feedxl.com/tools-for-precision-nutrition/

I’d kept horses for decades without being in charge of diet, so it was daunting. With FeedXL you can play around with numbers and also input pricing to make sure you’re covering your nutritional bases without paying too much.

For example - I was buying the premixed Smartpak stuff, but FeedXL showed me I really only needed to buy a mega bag of each isolated mineral/etc. It was better for my horse (they were getting the perfect levels of each nutrient) and it was much easier on the wallet.

I got my hay tested bc that was the only way to know it’s actual nutritional content, my home state of NC’s extension will do it for $10! https://harnett.ces.ncsu.edu/hay-eva…n-and-testing/

Edited to add - utilize the nutritionists for each brand, but don’t feel bad doing your own research. The Nutrena feed that my rep recommended for my body scale 2 rehab horse ended up being off the charts on some things that were negatively affecting her comeback. Once I started balancing things on FeedXL, her demeanor changed and I could tell I was on the right track.

[JB]

@event4r

Thanks for the input! I know what he needs to eat in terms of nutrition, but many companies have feeds that are similar. I’ll call and talk to the local feed stores and see who seems helpful. Out of date/moldy/improperly stored/ inconsistent from bag to bag are my min concerns.

Keep in mind that rarely does anyone at any feed store know the first thing about feeding any animal. They know what sells best, they know what they use and like (if bought from there), but that’s not helpful. Being helpful isn’t the same as being knowledgeable.

Often you have to go by word of mouth to determine which stores keep feed in a good rotation so that mold/out of date isn’t an issue. If a store doesn’t care that they’re doing that, they don’t care to tell you the truth

If you truly do know what he needs in terms of nutrition - not just “he’s a performance horse therefore needs a performance feed” (which isn’t automatically the case) - then I truly mean no offense, but you wouldn’t be here asking this question

Not all “maintenance” feeds are created equal. Some are sky-high in sugar, for example.

@Scribbler

Well as you evaluate also email the locally available feed companies and ask for both ingredients and guaranteed nutrition.

Pretty much everyone has the GA online now. Many also have ingredients, many don’t, so for those that don’t, that can be a struggle to find out, as even some companies claim “proprietary” information as to why they can’t (won’t) give that out :rolleyes:

Some feeds are fixed ingredients and fixed nutrition.

Some feeds are fixed nutrition but variable ingredients. They go with what is cheapest or most available to get the nutrition.

So the ingredients might say oats and/or barley and/or wheat and/or corn. Might say alfalfa and/or soy and/or wheat middlings etc.

This would mean the feed could vary substantially from batch to batch.

None of this is on the bag.

Bags are required to have the ingredient list somewhere, whether it’s printed on the bag, or printed on a tag sewn to the bag.

FeedXL can be a great place if you at least have the list of choices narrowed down. But without a forage analysis, it’s all a guess. The perfect feed with a generic hay analysis may not at all be perfect with the actual hay fed. If you need something generic, I would at least contact your County Extension Agency for an idea of an average analysis for X type of hay in your specific area. What is typical of the Western part of NC is not at all typical of the Eastern part, for example, so a generic “Southeast Region” doesn’t cut it.

[cutter99]

@JB

Keep in mind that rarely does anyone at any feed store know the first thing about feeding any animal. They know what sells best, they know what they use and like (if bought from there), but that’s not helpful. Being helpful isn’t the same as being knowledgeable.

The statement above is NOT true. There are plenty of feed stores out there with owners and employees who are more than knowledgeable. I know some with degrees in Animal Science. Don’t make assumptions.

[JB]

I didn’t say never. It is the rare person I run across who has gotten any reasonably educated information from a “feed store”. I am sure in some areas, and maybe some chains, it is much more common to get real information.

I would love to know where all these plenty of stores are so I can direct people in those areas to go talk to them. Truly - people need to know.

I would also love to know the extent of their knowledge. Animal Science is a hugely broad degree and doesn’t doesn’t mean they didn’t specialized in horses, much less equine nutrition.

[Palm_Beach]

@cutter99

The statement above is NOT true. There are plenty of feed stores out there with owners and employees who are more than knowledgeable. I know some with degrees in Animal Science. Don’t make assumptions.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I hate it when people ignorantly make blanket statements based on their own teeny tiny little corner of experience. My feed store has an equine specialist who will come out and test hay and make recommendations based on the results. I should look up her credentials, I can’t remember off the top of my head, but she does have an equine nutrition related degree - it’s probably Animal Science. Many of the other employees own a variety of animals - pigs, chickens, cows, etc and they are a wealth of helpful information when I encounter an issue. Such as - put bluing on the bald, raw head of my little hen who was getting hen-pecked by the flock.

And to dismiss the education of someone with an Animal Science degree is pretty ignorant too. As if self educating online is superior. :no:

[Palm_Beach]

@JB

I didn’t say never. It is the rare person I run across who has gotten any reasonably educated information from a “feed store”. I am sure in some areas, and maybe some chains, it is much more common to get real information.

I would love to know where all these plenty of stores are so I can direct people in those areas to go talk to them. Truly - people need to know.

I would also love to know the extent of their knowledge. Animal Science is a hugely broad degree and doesn’t doesn’t mean they didn’t specialized in horses, much less equine nutrition.

Why not check out VA Tech’s Animal Science program before acting like people with an Animal Science degree cannot be knowledgeable about horses? What the heck makes one think that the are so superior to everyone and knows more than someone with a formal education? Because there is no major in equine nutrition?

https://www.apsc.vt.edu/students/und…Academics.html

So because a degree is in Animal Science means they can’t possibly know anything about equine nutrition? They can’t do a research paper on equine nutrition? They didn’t take Bio, Chem, Microbio, Biochem, Molecular Bio, Cell Physiology, none of those courses would give a person a strong base for pursuing knowledge about equine nutrition?

I just find it ironic that someone with no credentials is so quick to condemn and dismiss the credentials of everyone else.

[JB]

@Palm Beach

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I hate it when people ignorantly make blanket statements based on their own teeny tiny little corner of experience.

:lol: :lol: And I didn’t make a blanket statement. Rare doesn’t mean “absolutely nobody”

My feed store has an equine specialist who will come out and test hay and make recommendations based on the results.

And that is awesome. I do not think you are in the majority at all.

And to dismiss the education of someone with an Animal Science degree is pretty ignorant too. As if self educating online is superior. :no:

Clearly you need to actually read what I wrote, again, as I did not at all dismiss the degree, it’s just what you wanted to hear me say. I pointed out that AS is a very broad degree and doesn’t mean they specialized in horses

Why not check out VA Tech’s Animal Science program before acting like people with an Animal Science degree cannot be knowledgeable about horses? What the heck makes one think that the are so superior to everyone and knows more than someone with a formal education? Because there is no major in equine nutrition?

https://www.apsc.vt.edu/students/und…Academics.html

Note that not once did I say they could not be knowledgeable about horses because of an AS degree. But you just proved my point. Per your link, an AS degree might be tailored to the Production-Business option. How does that give them good working knowledge of equine nutrition?

Or maybe the did choose the Science option to get into nutrition, but chose to specialize in Companion/Lab Animals, or Poultry. How does that give them good working knowledge of equine nutrition?

And if you actually look at your link, you’d see that you can get the Science option (which focuses on nutrition) and a specialization in horses, so yes, you actually can “major” in equine nutrition. But that’s one of many potential options with an AS degree.

@Palm Beach

So because a degree is in Animal Science means they can’t possibly know anything about equine nutrition? They can’t do a research paper on equine nutrition? They didn’t take Bio, Chem, Microbio, Biochem, Molecular Bio, Cell Physiology, none of those courses would give a person a strong base for pursuing knowledge about equine nutrition?

I just find it ironic that someone with no credentials is so quick to condemn and dismiss the credentials of everyone else.

Clearly, you can’t comprehend my posts, as not once did I dismiss credentials. Should someone with an MD after his name be perfectly capable of discussing an Auto-Immune Protocol diet with you? Why isn’t it enough that he took all the same basic Bio, Chem, Microbio, Biochem, Molecular Bio, and Cell Physiology courses in school? I mean, why not ask a surgeon how to safely get on a true Keto diet to help with your epilepsy?

[Palm_Beach]

@JB

Clearly, you can’t comprehend my posts, as not once did I dismiss credentials. Should someone with an MD after his name be perfectly capable of discussing an Auto-Immune Protocol diet with you? Why isn’t it enough that he took all the same basic Bio, Chem, Microbio, Biochem, Molecular Bio, and Cell Physiology courses in school? I mean, why not ask a surgeon how to safely get on a true Keto diet to help with your epilepsy?

I would ask any MD before I would ask an anonymous internet poster. One thing about a formal education is that you understand that you don’t know everything, and you are able to direct inquiries to those who can truly help with a problem. The online anonymous internet posters who are “self-educated” can go down the road of misinformation although they have good intentions. Which is why there are children dying of measles. Some parents thought they were educating themselves and did not realize their sources were suspect and had no credentials. The ability to string words together that sound good, logical and helpful is called salesmanship, not knowledge.

[cutter99]

@JB

I didn’t say never. It is the rare person I run across who has gotten any reasonably educated information from a “feed store”. I am sure in some areas, and maybe some chains, it is much more common to get real information.

I would love to know where all these plenty of stores are so I can direct people in those areas to go talk to them. Truly - people need to know.

I would also love to know the extent of their knowledge. Animal Science is a hugely broad degree and doesn’t doesn’t mean they didn’t specialized in horses, much less equine nutrition.

And you throw out plenty of nutritional advice here. What is your degree in? Attended a special nutrition school? Been trained by a feed company? Have a Masters? What makes you an expert, especially one in a position to criticize businesses of which you have no direct knowledge? Certified member of ARPAS?

Feed store owners and employees don’t just sell horse feed. It is part of their business but certainly not all of it. An Animal Science degree covers more than one base.

Sometimes the greatest ability in selling feed, and many other situations in life, is being able to say “I don’t know, but I know where I can find out”, and doing so. I know PhDs in Equine Nutrition who do this.

[Scribbler]

Our local co op mill has equine nutrionists with degrees on contract and will run hay tests and discuss them with you. They offer good advice on which feed brands that they manufacture would be complementary. But that is really different from asking the workers behind the counter how to balance your horse’s diet.

I also think that if you were in real farming country or rangeland, the nutrionists and feed stores would tend heavily towards cattle expertise.

And that does not 100% translate to horse nutrition. So I could imagine a rural feed store with good advice on cattle. But not so good on horses.

Honestly it never occurred to me to ask the folks behind the feed store counters for advice. I don’t think that’s where people with degrees in animal science end up, at least not in the suburbs/exurbs.

[cutter99]

@Scribbler

Our local co op mill has equine nutrionists with degrees on contract and will run hay tests and discuss them with you. They offer good advice on which feed brands that they manufacture would be complementary. But that is really different from asking the workers behind the counter how to balance your horse’s diet.

I also think that if you were in real farming country or rangeland, the nutrionists and feed stores would tend heavily towards cattle expertise.

And that does not 100% translate to horse nutrition. So I could imagine a rural feed store with good advice on cattle. But not so good on horses.

Honestly it never occurred to me to ask the folks behind the feed store counters for advice. I don’t think that’s where people with degrees in animal science end up, at least not in the suburbs/exurbs.

Again, more wrong assumptions. I covered a sales territory for one of the top ten animal nutrition companies in the world that was basically the entire northeast US from the Mid-Atlantic region to the Canadian border. I called on over 150 feeds stores in that region. One co-op I worked with had six salespeople out on the road. Everyone had a degree in Animal Science, and were well versed in equine nutrition. They had to be after the dairy industry was driven out by development in that state. Horses were at least holding steady while dairy/ beef numbers declined.

Many stores do offer equine specialists, who actually go out and make calls. Most people who work with either beef or dairy want no part in working with horses, as ruminant nutrition is much different than equine and they see horses as hay burners and horse owners as a PIA.

Animal Science does not just encompass the study of one species. It can cover more than one species as electives are part of the degree program. Most feed companies strive to hire Animal Science grads, although it is usually not a requirement. Believe it or not, most of these people are there to do a job and they want to do it well.

And I am still waiting to hear all of JB’s credentials. I have asked this question before and it has never been answered.

[JB]

@cutter99

And you throw out plenty of nutritional advice here. What is your degree in? Attended a special nutrition school? Been trained by a feed company? Have a Masters? What makes you an expert, especially one in a position to criticize businesses of which you have no direct knowledge?

Again - where did I criticize? Nowhere. I pointed out that it’s important to know where the information is coming from. I’m not looking to get equine nutrition advice from someone who took a few obligatory courses in ruminant nutrition but concentrated in the Production and Business side of things, and has never owned a horse, regardless of their Animal Science degree, just like I would not go to a General Practitioner for my dietary advice. I don’t look to my vet, or most vets for that matter, for nutrition advice, because while their degree is far more advanced knowledge than I have, it is not in the area of nutrition, no matter how much they know about cellular activity or diseases or medications and other drugs.

Where does my knowledge come from? From actual nutritionists - real nutritionists like Dr. Clair Thunes and not just someone who took someone’s weekend course and calls themselves a nutritionist. From articles written at UC-Davis. From the people who are studying this stuff for a living. The National Research Council Nutrient Requirements for Horses is a gold mine of information. The Horse site has tons of articles which usually link to the actual research behind what they are putting into laymen’s terms. I look at those studies. Do you honestly think I make this stuff up? Spit it out because “that’s what Grandpa did”?

Sometimes the greatest ability in selling feed, and many other situations in life, is being able to say “I don’t know, but I know where I can find out”, and doing so. I know PhDs in Equine Nutrition who do this.

I do it all the time. I have told people I don’t know the answer to their question. There are questions asked that I don’t even attempt to answer because I don’t know.

I have made suggestions for searches to help them go find the information for themselves. When asked to back up what I have commented on, I can usually point to the research behind it all if that’s the detail they want. And I stand corrected when I am wrong. I cannot tell you the biology about most of this stuff works, and I don’t make it up when I don’t know. Don’t look to me to finesse feeding plans for the IR, Cushing’s, leaky gut and PSSM horse - not touching that one. Don’t ask me to create a custom-blended feed for you to hand your feed mill.

[Scribbler]

@cutter99

Again, more wrong assumptions. I covered a sales territory for one of the top ten animal nutrition companies in the world that was basically the entire northeast US from the Mid-Atlantic region to the Canadian border. I called on over 150 feeds stores in that region. One co-op I worked with had six salespeople out on the road. Everyone had a degree in Animal Science, and were well versed in equine nutrition. They had to be after the dairy industry was driven out by development in that state. Horses were at least holding steady while dairy/ beef numbers declined.

Many stores do offer equine specialists, who actually go out and make calls. Most people who work with either beef or dairy want no part in working with horses, as ruminant nutrition is much different than equine and they see horses as hay burners and horse owners as a PIA.

Animal Science does not just encompass the study of one species. It can cover more than one species as electives are part of the degree program. Most feed companies strive to hire Animal Science grads, although it is usually not a requirement. Believe it or not, most of these people are there to do a job and they want to do it well.
.

Well, we clearly have a much smaller market where I am in Canada.

We have two local mills making their own product lines, and not much if any national or American brands available.

The one coop mill has hay testing and a nutritionist on contract to talk to customers. The feed stores are all basically family operations. I dont think any of the feed stores have traveling salesmen. They just sell within a 60 mile driving radius.

The one coop makes modern formula low starch feeds. The other mill makes more old school formulations and even their maintenance extruded is 44% NSC I think (I checked because I was using it for clicker treats).

The feed stores all I think started out as hay dealers and grew from there.

[Palm_Beach]

@cutter99

And I am still waiting to hear all of JB’s credentials. I have asked this question before and it has never been answered.

JB has no credentials and gets his or her information from the internet. Does JB even have a science related undergrad degree?

Somehow, JB’s home study course is superior to any formal education obtained at an accredited college or university in any science related field, even if that person with the lowly Animal Science or other related degree is a lifelong horseperson who also have a deep, abiding interest in equine nutrition and has pursued his or her own internet-based home study course.

FWIW, Triple Crown will pay for employees to become certified by ARPAS, which is the recognized certification authority for equine nutrition. I believe anyone is eligible to pay for courses, testing, etc. and get the designation.

[cutter99]

@JB

Again - where did I criticize? Nowhere. I pointed out that it’s important to know where the information is coming from. I’m not looking to get equine nutrition advice from someone who took a few obligatory courses in ruminant nutrition but concentrated in the Production and Business side of things, and has never owned a horse, regardless of their Animal Science degree, just like I would not go to a General Practitioner for my dietary advice. I don’t look to my vet, or most vets for that matter, for nutrition advice, because while their degree is far more advanced knowledge than I have, it is not in the area of nutrition, no matter how much they know about cellular activity or diseases or medications and other drugs.

Where does my knowledge come from? From actual nutritionists - real nutritionists like Dr. Clair Thunes and not just someone who took someone’s weekend course and calls themselves a nutritionist. From articles written at UC-Davis. From the people who are studying this stuff for a living. The National Research Council Nutrient Requirements for Horses is a gold mine of information. The Horse site has tons of articles which usually link to the actual research behind what they are putting into laymen’s terms. I look at those studies. Do you honestly think I make this stuff up? Spit it out because “that’s what Grandpa did”?

I do it all the time. I have told people I don’t know the answer to their question. There are questions asked that I don’t even attempt to answer because I don’t know.

I have made suggestions for searches to help them go find the information for themselves. When asked to back up what I have commented on, I can usually point to the research behind it all if that’s the detail they want. And I stand corrected when I am wrong. I cannot tell you the biology about most of this stuff works, and I don’t make it up when I don’t know. Don’t look to me to finesse feeding plans for the IR, Cushing’s, leaky gut and PSSM horse - not touching that one. Don’t ask me to create a custom-blended feed for you to hand your feed mill.

So you don’t have a degree in Equine Nutrition? You read articles, associate with PhDs? You own a copy of the NRC for a Horses? An Internet connection so you can get articles online? And this makes you more of an expert than people with an Animal Science degree? And yet you offer all kinds of nutritional advice here?

What makes your advice so much so much more valuable than an equine specialist employed by a feed store?

Pot meet kettle.

[JB]

:rolleyes:

This whole thing started with the OP saying “I’ll call and talk to the local feed stores and see who seems helpful.”

Helpful doesn’t equate to knowledgeable. That is my only point. Some of the most helpful feed store people have recommended All Stock as a good option for a fat horse.

Then the implication was that anyone with an Animal Science degree knows exactly how to help you. Including, apparently, someone who specialized in Poultry and the Business side of things. Got it.

You are absolutely, 100% free to question my suggestions and advice. I hope you do the same with the dozens and dozens of others who offer the same. In the meantime, be sure to continue the suggestions and advice you both offer freely while at the same time telling everyone that nobody on the internet should be taking the advice of random internet strangers.

What makes your advice so much so much more valuable than an equine specialist employed by a feed store?

Please show me where I said that.

Have a great rest of your weekend.

[cutter99]

@Palm Beach

JB has no credentials and gets his or her information from the internet. Does JB even have a science related undergrad degree?

Somehow, JB’s home study course is superior to any formal education obtained at an accredited college or university in any science related field, even if that person with the lowly Animal Science or other related degree is a lifelong horseperson who also have a deep, abiding interest in equine nutrition and has pursued his or her own internet-based home study course.

FWIW, Triple Crown will pay for employees to become certified by ARPAS, which is the recognized certification authority for equine nutrition. I believe anyone is eligible to pay for courses, testing, etc. and get the designation.

There are two different certifications for ARPAS, and anyone can take the course and test for certification. One certification can be obtained if you have a Animal Science degree, and the other you can obtain without any degree or a non-Animal Science degree. It is not expensive to do, and does not just pertain to nutrition.

Most feed companies will pay for their employees to get ARPAS certification if the employee is so inclined.

[Simkie]

Wow. I’d really like to live where there are brilliant PhD carrying nutritionists manning the counter of every feed store, rather than nice but fairly ignorant high schoolers. I’ve somehow missed where ever than is in my many moves across the country.

All this vitriol toward JB is bizarre, considering she’s helped countless people here with their nutrition and deworming questions (in particular) and a multitude of other issues (in general) and is always so reasonable and NICE.

[Palm_Beach]

I don’t take advice from anonymous internet posters without verifying it with a credible source, and neither should anyone else. That is how the anti-vax movement reached the point that there are measles outbreaks and children are dead. All those kids were perfectly fine, until they got measles. I’m sure those parents were trying to help people, and were reasonable and NICE. Then children died.

So continue to ask questions and seek advice, but some of the people providing the advice, even if they are reasonable and NICE are not professionals or experts, and have cobbled together their knowledge from the internet.

This goes for many subjects, not just nutrition.

And it’s not vitriol toward JB, whoever he or she is, but calling out JB’s attitude that his or her home based study is superior to what someone else learned at an accredited college or university. JB is giving JB credit for pursing a home based course of study, but does not seem to think anyone else is capable of doing the same, especially if they majored in Animal Science and pursued poultry or business. Maybe poultry or business was pursued because there was a better career path than equine nutrition, and that student wanted to make sure he or she could earn a living and own a horse or two and not be one of the posters lamenting about the struggle to make ends meet when you are into horses.

[JB]

@Palm Beach

I don’t take advice from anonymous internet posters without verifying it with a credible source, and neither should anyone else.

So why are you here, recommending TC Lite to a variety of horses, including those who are fat on 1lb of a ration balancer?

So continue to ask questions and seek advice, but some of the people providing the advice, even if they are reasonable and NICE are not professionals or experts, and have cobbled together their knowledge from the internet.

Since I have told you where my information comes from (which are the people actually studying this stuff), where does your advice come from?

And it’s not vitriol toward JB, whoever he or she is, but calling out JB’s attitude that his or her home based study is superior to what someone else learned at an accredited college or university.

I’ve asked several times now for you and cutter to point out where I have discredited anyone. Why haven’t you answered?

Maybe poultry or business was pursued because there was a better career path than equine nutrition, and that student wanted to make sure he or she could earn a living and own a horse or two and not be one of the posters lamenting about the struggle to make ends meet when you are into horses.

So if that student didn’t study horses or horse nutrition in their Animal Science degree, what makes them qualified, in your opinion, to be giving advice on equine nutrition to the general customer whose horse they know nothing about? Is it their study of cellular biology that makes them qualified? Microbiology? Chemistry?