Horse Gets Fast with Daughter While jumping - not with adv. rider

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;7205215]
The more advanced rider is able to control the pace with her body and stay off the reins.[/QUOTE]

this and just plain timing. A novice rider often lacks timing for the half halts. So they are not quick enough nor release. So the horse gets going too much before they ask them to slow down and then they keep pulling rather then release.

It will get better as your daughter improves. Horses that look steady and quiet with an advanced rider —it is just that the advanced rider is making quick and subtle adjustments often. They are rarely sitting up there doing nothing. So with this horse, you daughter is likely not half halting soon enough. By the time a person on the ground sees he horse picking up pace, it is already late for the half halt. It is a feel thing that novice riders have to develop.

Just keep her with her good trainer and give it time.

[alto]

@HLMom;7205430

The responses concerning weight-shifting & sitting back are interesting… my daughter is about 5’2" now and maybe 90 pounds, so yes, compared to the adult rider, she doesn’t have as much weight to sit back with. So maybe that could be a factor, too.

Any small advanced riders in the barn? (or local trainers?)

• having a similar sized rider on once a week is never bad

[CBoylen]

The responses concerning weight-shifting & sitting back are interesting… my daughter is about 5’2" now and maybe 90 pounds, so yes, compared to the adult rider, she doesn’t have as much weight to sit back with. So maybe that could be a factor, too.
It’s also interesting that one poster said her half-halts may not be strong enough, but a different school of thought is that she relies too much on her hands rather than using her seat to control the pace.

Not different school of thought at all. A half-halt comes almost entirely from the seat and leg, not the hand.
At 5’2" and 90 lbs, she has plenty of size and weight. Many of us that ride for a living are not much bigger. So don’t let her get into the mindset that she can’t do it correctly. It is almost certainly an execution problem, not a strength problem. Position, planning, timing, ability to recognize pace changes over the entire period of riding the course, straightness, turns, release, control of the aids; the list of things that might need correcting is endless. Trust your trainer to fix the issues if you trust your trainer, and realize it’s not going to happen overnight. If the horse goes well for another rider you do not have a horse problem. Your child just needs to learn to ride it better, and that takes time.

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=HLMom;7205430]
The responses concerning weight-shifting & sitting back are interesting… my daughter is about 5’2" now and maybe 90 pounds, so yes, compared to the adult rider, she doesn’t have as much weight to sit back with. So maybe that could be a factor, too.

It’s also interesting that one poster said her half-halts may not be strong enough, but a different school of thought is that she relies too much on her hands rather than using her seat to control the pace. --The joy of horses, where there is never a shortage of possible explanations for whatever problem is cropping up![/QUOTE]

Both are correct. A half halt is not a steady pull, it is a momentary aid that is immediately released. So you half halt to put the horse back under your seat (and a lot more is involved than just rein), and then you let go and see if he stays there. As long as he stays there, you leave him alone. If he edges the pace in front of your seat again, you half halt him back where you want him, and then let go to see if he stays there. He learns that if he stays under your seat you will leave him alone.

If the rider is using too much hand, there is never a “teaching release” and the horse never learns to regulate himself under the pace. The rider will be in his face anyway. Otoh, if the rider does not half halt strongly enough to reset the pace, she will not be able to release for a moment. You need a strong enough half halt to put the horse where you want him, but then you need to let go.

It is like a jenga pile: you tap a piece back in place and then let go to see if it will hold. You don’t just keep your hand on the whole time.

[Soaponarope]

The positive here is that the horse goes well with the more seasoned rider. You are lucky. She may be able to be sold or leased to someone who can bring out the best in her and that is in the horse’s best interest as well as your daughters. If the rushing has been or continues to be a problem beyond six months I would consider selling/leasing the horse to someone who can enjoy her. It can be hard for a green rider to reach her own potential if she is struggling with a horse who needs a more advanced rider. There are a zillion inspirational stories about green kids who made it through to the other side with green horses. The stories you don’t hear about are more common. Those are about the kids who wasted valuable time and lost confidence or got hurt on inappropriate mounts. And I’m not just talking about levels of greenness. This is a partnership that needs to click; it’s a dance. Think about Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers. They had chemistry and brought out the best in each other. That is what you need to shoot for for your daughter. You only go around once.

[MIKES_MCS]

[QUOTE=carroal;7205878]
The positive here is that the horse goes well with the more seasoned rider. You are lucky. She may be able to be sold or leased to someone who can bring out the best in her and that is in the horse’s best interest as well as your daughters. If the rushing has been or continues to be a problem beyond six months I would consider selling/leasing the horse to someone who can enjoy her. It can be hard for a green rider to reach her own potential if she is struggling with a horse who needs a more advanced rider. There are a zillion inspirational stories about green kids who made it through to the other side with green horses. The stories you don’t hear about are more common. Those are about the kids who wasted valuable time and lost confidence or got hurt on inappropriate mounts. And I’m not just talking about levels of greenness. This is a partnership that needs to click; it’s a dance. Think about Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers. They had chemistry and brought out the best in each other. That is what you need to shoot for for your daughter. You only go around once.[/QUOTE]

I absolutley agree with this, I have seen Green rider / horse combinations that just don’t click and after 3 years of trying , you have to stop and ask yourself what are you trying to accomplish, because before you know your junior years will be over, and your left with a rier and horse who have not accomplished their goals .

[Willesdon]

Sounds like the Trainer is being constructive and helpful.

As to whether the horse knows it has a different rider: of course it does!

We sold a horse that never put a foot wrong to a first-time owner and within 4 days we had a call to ask if it had always had poor manners in the stable. Fortunately, the call was from an experienced friend of the new owner, who understood the possibilities and she knew how to help the inexperienced human being bossed around by a very clever horse.

[xSelleFrancaisx]

Green horse + green rider= black and blue.

[findeight]

[QUOTE=xSelleFrancaisx;7206462]
Green horse + green rider= black and blue.[/QUOTE]

Very true. But this is not a Green horse and the kid is still novice but not all that Green either. Just having problems controlling pace.

[rugbygirl]

A horse can get a little rush-y feeling when the rider’s weight gets a bit too forward…my TB is like this, especially with me, as I am quite tall…it’s like he needs to run forward to get ahead of my center of gravity. This, of course, made me nervous, and my very ineffective response to THAT is typically to curl into a semi-fetal position…lean further forward.

This is not really different than what other people have said about sitting up/back…just a different way of describing the way the “effect” feels that goes with the “cause.”

Hunter riders especially are taught to stay very light in the seat, and sometimes this turns into a tendency to get the center of gravity a little in front of where it needs to be…the trick I had to learn to ride my TB well was how to stay LIGHT in my seat without being too far FORWARD with my weight. Sometimes people who are more, um, conditioned, to a certain look will accuse me of riding too deeply…but that’s the ride my horse needs…and it is pretty common in the jumpers to see riders go around a lot deeper in the tack. I don’t mean to make this a huge issue about “Hunter style”…it isn’t…it’s just that sometimes in pursuing a certain “look” a rider can lose track of what the optimal balance point for their body and horse is.

A really good exercise to see the effect of small shifts is something I did in a karate class years ago. Try to run wind sprints with someone on your shoulders. Notice how much you are thrown off when they move only their head, slightly forward or back.

[Dewey]

[QUOTE=CBoylen;7205714]
Not different school of thought at all. A half-halt comes almost entirely from the seat and leg, not the hand.
At 5’2" and 90 lbs, she has plenty of size and weight. Many of us that ride for a living are not much bigger. So don’t let her get into the mindset that she can’t do it correctly. It is almost certainly an execution problem, not a strength problem. Position, planning, timing, ability to recognize pace changes over the entire period of riding the course, straightness, turns, release, control of the aids; the list of things that might need correcting is endless. Trust your trainer to fix the issues if you trust your trainer, and realize it’s not going to happen overnight. If the horse goes well for another rider you do not have a horse problem. Your child just needs to learn to ride it better, and that takes time.[/QUOTE]

Bingo!

[HLMom]

Yes, the horse is a teenage veteran. She was showing hunters in A & B shows before she came to us after getting to a point where she needed to “step down.” So, no doubt for years she had superb riders.

I guess our plan (with trainer’s help) is to take it slow, practice with shorter courses, and hope things improve with practice… and keep re-evaluating.

I would like to thank everyone for their contributions. Since I don’t ride myself, I don’t understand some of the mechanics of it and these posts have helped me realize some of the (many!) subtle riding factors that go into controlling the pace. It’s been an education.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=HLMom;7206527]
Yes, the horse is a teenage veteran. She was showing hunters in A & B shows before she came to us after getting to a point where she needed to “step down.” So, no doubt for years she had superb riders.

I guess our plan (with trainer’s help) is to take it slow, practice with shorter courses, and hope things improve with practice… and keep re-evaluating.

I would like to thank everyone for their contributions. Since I don’t ride myself, I don’t understand some of the mechanics of it and these posts have helped me realize some of the (many!) subtle riding factors that go into controlling the pace. It’s been an education.[/QUOTE]

Lucky daughter. This sounds like a good horse for her to learn on. You don’t learn how to ride on a horse that just packs you around. You learn how to ride on a horse that responds to correct riding.

So this mare will teach your daughter when she is right. Just keep an experienced rider getting on the horse so the she stays tuned. Keep your daughter working with a good trainer. She will develop the proper timing and feel. As long as your daughter’s confidence stays good (i.e. she doesn’t get scared)–it is VERY good for her to learn on a horse like this. She will learn how to actually ride rather than just be taken for a ride. But it takes time!

[findeight]

Sounds like a cagey old veteran who would never dream of hurting DD but who may delight in taking some advantage of her.

Yeah, shorter courses and hit the flatwork to learn body control.

[alto]

If it’s not been done, check for pain, saddle fit etc - even though horse is being good for more advanced rider, she may still be feeling some discomfort (some horses begin stopping/evading, other horses just get their job done fast etc).

Yes, the horse is a teenage veteran. She was showing hunters in A & B shows before she came to us after getting to a point where she needed to "step down.

What sort of maintenance program is mare on?

[M_O_Connor]

Reading your posts I think it would be really difficult to draw any conclusions beyond that it sounds like your daughter has reached a plateau that your trainer seems to be having difficulty getting her past.

There are a number of variables at play (is this rider appropriately mounted? Is she capable of performing the exercises she is being asked to do? Is the horse? Is the horse sound and comfortable? Is the trainer properly in control of the situation? Knowledgeable and experienced enough to recognize why things are going wrong?) which make it impossible to guess what could be going on; the most important consideration is whether your daughter is safe, and without pace control, this is a big question in my mind.

With too much pace, flyers are inevitable, and quite dangerous–I would much rather see a double add than a flyer and a flip.

[M_O_Connor]

Keep in mind that not all ex- show horses are truly appropriate and safe to learn on–while some of them may be a delight, being an ex- show horse is not in and of itself a guarantee that it doesn’t have a few holes, and sometimes these can be very awkward to deal with.

Especially if it was an advanced level horse, it may have trouble accepting a ride with less finesse and polish than your daughter is capable of delivering just now- in this situation a stalemate may be achieved where neither horse nor rider are happy or confident with the other, and this won’t be safe indefinitely. If your trainer can’t find a way to change this dynamic, it may be better to separate these two for at least the time being.

[Linny]

Good for you, OP to realize that there are subtleties involved in riding that are not always obvious from the ground. Something like the “half halt” which was defined for me a thousand years ago as “riding for a moment as if preparing to halt, then releasing those aids” is a VERY hard thing to learn and just when you learn it, the recipe changes. It involves seat, hand and leg but the amount of each varies from situation to situation and from horse to horse. The half halt that works on the flat might not work when mare is pointed at a jump.
Has the instructor ridden the mare? A good instructor should be able to get on her and figure out what balance of hand, seat and leg with get her attention. (My instructor a few years ago hopped on my lease horse and figured a few things out very quickly. After that, our jumping improved exponentially.)
Dropping back to smaller things like lines (to make sure DD is landing and not rushing the mare by her actions) and maybe grids etc sounds like a good idea. Sometimes a rider may be jumping well at a certain level, one which the horse can do as well, but when the team is new, they need to drop back to basics. I’ve ridden for over 40 years and with my most recent lease horse, we spend a bit of time hopping over flower boxes and little things until we were really a team. Once that “team” was formed we went from jumping 12" and 18" to 2’6 inside 2 weeks.

[IPEsq]

Another possibility from my experience owning a forward TB–ones like this one that know their job sometimes see a green rider hanging in its mouth as a sign that green rider doesn’t have a clue where she is. The horse then responds with an, ok, I got this, and takes over to the jump, which may mean anything from being a little quick to “freight train”. I am a quiet rider but when I bought my horse like this (an experienced horse but not yet at the stepping down phase), I didn’t make the horse get hot, but I was very frustrated when I would pull on the reins to ask for a quieter distance and the horse would respond by wanting to run. It wasn’t until I talked to the trainer that previously had the horse that I learned that she’d just take over because being handsy is what the previous owner would do when she felt lost and didn’t see the distance.

Ultimately, what everyone is saying about aids is correct, particularly the comments about the half halt, but also this rider may need to earn the trust of the horse. Even after my horse developed confidence in me to find the distances and stopped the running nonsense when I meant “whoa”, I noticed she’d still get quick in the same way with less experienced riders when I went to sell her to someone who’d give her an easier job. In some cases, the prospective buyer wouldn’t use enough hand, in some cases too much. In all cases, there was no understanding of the correct half halt that has been described, and the horse knew immediately. Auto pilot for these horses just happens to be a lot faster than the kick ride packers.

The alternative to the above is the jerk – Even my kick ride hunter (who became made up but was no packer) did the same thing when I sold him to a more novice rider. I’d taught him with his gigantic stride to wait in the lines as a green horse when he wanted to leave strides out, especially towards home, and I went on to show him for a couple more years without that behavior, but he reverted to that habit with his new owner I guess just because he could.

The good news is that the rider can be trained to deal with both situations and the horse will develop confidence and respect. However, if you try for a long time and it’s not happening, then it’s probably a fatal personality conflict between the horse and rider and it might be a better learning experience for the rider to get a horse that compliments her better.

[HLMom]

[QUOTE=alto;7206628]

What sort of maintenance program is mare on?[/QUOTE]

She does have the issues you would expect from a horse who has jumped a fair bit in the past. She is on Pentosan and gets her hocks done… So yes, we do worry about keeping her comfortable. She jumps about 18"-2 feet once or twice a week, so her new life is MUCH easier on her.