Horse Gets Fast with Daughter While jumping - not with adv. rider

[HLMom]

My daughter’s horse is lovely and perfect on the flat and over a single jump or a couple jumps. However, while jumping a course of small jumps, she gets over-eager and speedy. Half-halts don’t seem to slow her down, especially in a line. She’s like a freight train!

DD has been riding at least several times a week for 4 years. A good little rider who gets some nice eq ribbons at schooling shows. Age 12.

When a more advanced adult gets on the horse, she doesn’t show this behavior. She is much more steady!

I guess my questions are: Why does the horse do this? What does the horse feel that is different with an advanced rider versus a more novice rider?? And, can this be fixed?

Thanks for any thoughts.

[Blugal]

Yes, this can be fixed - probably with the help of an experienced professional on the ground who can identify what your daughter is doing differently than an advanced rider.

My guess is that your daughter may be using more leg than the adult (often less experienced riders inadvertently use their aids while trying to balance their own positions); using more hand (clutching which often causes the horses to tune out the rider); or giving much weaker half-halts (or ineffectively using her half-halts).

There is also the possibility that this horse has been around the block enough to know what it can get away with, and with whom. Again, with the help of a good professional on the ground or in the tack you’ll be able to answer this question.

[equisusan]

Could be sooo many things but some that pop to my mind are novice riders that clamp with their legs and novice riders that lose their balance. I’d need to see a video to offer something specific about how your daughter rides. What does her trainer say?

[eclipse]

What the above 2 posters said, along with sometimes a horse and rider just don’t gel well with each other as well as with the another type of rider. Nothing at all wrong with that, it happens to everyone. Have your trainer do a real honest evaluation of them and really listen to what she/he tells you. It may be just a matter of time or it may just not be a good match!

[Dewey]

Agree with the above posts; I also notice that a lot of novice riders don’t use their weight as effectively as more experienced riders do. A horse will usually respond by slowing down if the rider sits up, moves the shoulders back, and sinks his/her weight into the heels.

I especially agree with the poster above who suggested that the horse probably knows what she can get away with. A horse will often recognize an experienced rider immediately, and his/her entire demeanor will change as soon as the good rider hits the saddle. Tell your daughter to keep working–her time will come.

[HLMom]

Thank you for these thoughts. I understand it’s hard without a video – I’ll see if I can accomplish that!

We have a great trainer and she has tried a lot of things – different bits, backing the horse up, etc. She has prescribed plenty of no stirrups work because DD’s lower leg will move around a little.

In the back of my mind I do have the fear that eclipse voiced – what if this horse is only comfortable with the more experienced ride that is not in my daughter’s capability now or in the near future?

I guess I’m hoping that practice, practice (with trainer’s help) will gradually improve this…

[findeight]

Usually the more fences you jump in one exercise, the more the horse will “build”. A more experienced rider not worried about the jumps just manages the canter and controls that building speed as they go around the course.

Novices, however, ARE still worried about the jumps and its too much multi tasking to manage the canter strides down the lines, go out in the corners, find the ins and get to the outs etc. plus they get nervous when that speed starts to build and horse knows it.

If horse does not do it with a slightly more experienced rider? It’s not the horse, or, rather, the horse does know they can get away with it but nothing evil going on there.

When I went thru this, and its common, trainer put horse in a fat rubber snaffle and worked to get me more comfortable going faster instead of tensing and to package the building pace into a bigger step instead of more speed.
I got more concerned with managing pace then the jumps.

DD may not be ready for that yet so suggest a stronger rider spin her around before DD gets on and get her a little tired. And exercises over singles and halting at random mid course would be appropriate avoiding a full course where you know she’s going to light the jets. DD will get it as she jumps more and learns to manage that step.

Old Hunter saying- kick up the first line, encourage in the second line, third line should be perfect, cool your jets down the last line and throw out the anchor if its towards the in gate. Very true, they can count to 8 fences, know when they are done and know exactly where the out gate is. Not so dumb. Run and be done gets in horsey brain there too.

Oh, if trainer wants to put some lines together, take the first one TOWARDS the in gate where normally the are slugs and the second away from it as that should slow her down. Horse is just smarter about the course then DD is right now. It’ll work out. Not a bad problem, beats a stopper or putting DD in the dirt all the time or some slow slug with a double add down a line set for 10’.

[meupatdoes]

The more advanced rider is able to control the pace with her body and stay off the reins.

[Canaqua]

@Dewey;7205204

Agree with the above posts; I also notice that a lot of novice riders don’t use their weight as effectively as more experienced riders do. A horse will usually respond by slowing down if the rider sits up, moves the shoulders back, and sinks his/her weight into the heels.

Yes. I ride a mare who gets excited and will build during a course…she’ll try it with anyone, but the fix is to sit up and move shoulders back, relying on upper body, rather than hand, to collect her. Trying to slow her down and back her off with hand will cause her to pull and turn into a freight train. The better/physically stronger riders use their upper body to fix her without it showing ;). For me, middle aged with a desk job, it totally depends on what my core strength is like, if I haven’t been riding regularly and haven’t been working on my core off the horse it is MUCH harder to ride her.

It’s possible your daughter, at age 12, may not be strong enough yet to do this.

I rode this mare in a Greg Best clinic back in July and what he did with horses who build during a course was to have us ride them MORE forward, on a longer stride, and then start to collect a few strides out from the fence. He said that the horse might have felt she didn’t have enough to get over the fence without rushing and hauling if I didn’t have enough impulsion between the fences. It’s very tempting to let a quick horse get behind your leg!

[eclipse]

Speedy and a bit more up and eager to jump, So so so so so beats a stopper! (yeah how can you tell I never want to go there again LOL) And even if it does turn out that this is not the pefect match at THIS time it doesn’t necessarly mean that you have to sell the horse. Maybe daughter could just school and show on a more novicy friendly one until she’s ready for this one or just keep having the more advanced rider/pro ride it first and then have your daughter ride it.

I remember, many yrs ago, a person that now rides for Canada taking her jumping lessons on her fun pony at our barn and then heading over to BNR/BNT’s barn and doing just flat and lunge lessons on the horse that was waiting for her to become a better rider. When she was ready she transitioned to the other horse (and barn) and never looked back. There’s way’s around everything and I’m sure your trainer will figure something out!

[HLMom]

[QUOTE=findeight;7205213]

Not a bad problem, beats a stopper or putting DD in the dirt all the time or some slow slug with a double add down a line set for 10’.[/QUOTE]

Findeight, your post seems very perceptive to me. Plus, your last line gives me hope. I think the same thing – she is a very good-natured horse, always willing, and that’s a really good thing.

I appreciate everyone else’s thoughts, too. Honestly, I feel they are probably all true to a degree. There are so many different elements to good riding and they are all likely to be more skillful in an advanced rider. I just hope this sweet horse will continue to tolerate my daughter while she learns…

[ToTheNines]

I did not read all the posts, and maybe someone has mentioned this. But sometimes, the mere fact that a person’s leg falls differently on the horse’s side makes a difference. Is your daughter shorter and do her heels hit the horse’s sides right at a more sensitive place than with other riders?

[MIKES_MCS]

You don’t say, but would this horse be a TB or strong TB cross perhaps?? If so while your daughter may have great Eq, I would imagine that comes with a pretty stiff back at her level . Soft rider back equals soft horse back ( relaxed) Tense rider back equals tense horse. Soft hands / soft back . However If the trainer can’t figure out how to fix this, then the Rider / Trainer / Horse Combo may not be a good overall fit . This horse knows the difference between riders and if it keeps going on or has for a long time you have Two choices go back to STEP 1 or find a different horse. Don’t get me wrong I am not trying to be mean BUT I have seen this same scenario over and over again and sometimes it goes far beyond the point of no return as the horse has been “Literally” trained by your daughter to be this way.

[findeight]

Ummm, I accidentally deleted my response trying to fix a spelling error, darn itty bitty phone screen. But O P saw it so its all good.

[Linny]

F8 and MIKES are spot in IMO. Many young riders with “good equitation” are a bit stiff as they are working hard to hold the correct position. That tension may be telegraphed to the mare.
I have also seen many young riders who are taught on schoolies and thus used to a “kick along” ride, struggle to move on to a horse with more engine. They jump into a line and RIDE away from the “in” because so many schoolies require it. Even if they think that they are sitting still, they are still driving a bit with leg or seat. As noted, they often don’t have the strength to get their upper body “back and away” and establish a little “whoa” in the first stride of a line.
It can be fixed. First, instructor needs to look for any signs of driving aids, seat, leg or even hitting the saddle too soon on landing and correct them. She needs to encourage a relaxed back in the rider, while helping her develop the upper body control to bring her shoulder back and “sit away” without driving with the seat. She needs to work on half halts and stride adjustment on the flat and possibly over poles so DD isn’t concerning herself with jumps, just “the ride.” Meanwhile, trainer or experienced rider should jump horse periodically to reinforce the proper pace from which to jump.

[hunterrider23]

Remember that her anticipation of the horses actions might be making her nervous, and yes, the horse will know she’s nervous and think there’s cause to be nervous as well.

[FineAlready]

In these situations, I feel like it is almost always a problem of too much hand causing the horse to get strong.

You might suggest having your daughter try riding in a halter with reins attached (classy, I know) for a few rides on the flat in a contained area.

I did this with my horse when he had a tooth removed and couldn’t wear a bit for a few weeks. I was really, really impressed with how easy it was to stop him or slow him using my body alone. Frankly, it was much easier to slow/stop with a halter than it is with a bit in his mouth (and I just use a double jointed smooth d-ring with sort of a “bean” center…definitely not harsh). It really helped remind me that I don’t need ANY hand at all to stop. In fact, even when wearing a bit, my horse stops/slows much better if I don’t touch his face at all and instead just bring my body back.

Working on this on the flat might help give your daughter the confidence she needs to stay out of her mare’s face when jumping.

[HLMom]

The responses concerning weight-shifting & sitting back are interesting… my daughter is about 5’2" now and maybe 90 pounds, so yes, compared to the adult rider, she doesn’t have as much weight to sit back with. So maybe that could be a factor, too.

It’s also interesting that one poster said her half-halts may not be strong enough, but a different school of thought is that she relies too much on her hands rather than using her seat to control the pace. --The joy of horses, where there is never a shortage of possible explanations for whatever problem is cropping up!

[merrygoround]

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;7205215]
The more advanced rider is able to control the pace with her body and stay off the reins.[/QUOTE]

This! And it is the trainers job to teach the rider what the advanced rider already knows.

[pony_grandma]

[QUOTE=HLMom;7205430]
The responses concerning weight-shifting & sitting back are interesting… my daughter is about 5’2" now and maybe 90 pounds, so yes, compared to the adult rider, she doesn’t have as much weight to sit back with. So maybe that could be a factor, too.

It’s also interesting that one poster said her half-halts may not be strong enough, but a different school of thought is that she relies too much on her hands rather than using her seat to control the pace. --The joy of horses, where there is never a shortage of possible explanations for whatever problem is cropping up![/QUOTE]

Kids are often, as I have used the description to clearly illustrate, like working with empty pop cans. They don’t have the weight and strength and can easily be pulled off balance.

What the last poster said, it’s the trainer’s job to know how to work with kids and teach them how to leverage their body. I have used some exercises to get a technique in place that helps children physically, and mentally to understand the priniciples that riding is based on.

Make a child sit up straight, then using an open rein on one side(short enough that they have a good firm contact) make them learn to pull their shoulders back - the movement they can feel is the drop down into their hip and seat that makes them feel grounded. Don’t pull with your arm. If you pull with your arm and your elbow comes back behind your body you lose connection. You can stand in front of them and if they sit regular with the reins held straight you can reach up and pull on that rein and pull their shoulders forward and unseat the kid. If they open the rein and use their shoulders to their seat when you pull on the rein they are firmly planted, they can even pull back against you ( and release - where a half halt starts to form, the pull into the rider’s body) They need exercises with a lot of bending to make this position an automatic response and for them to learn the feel. It’s not pulling back on the rein it’s sitting up shoulders back into your seat. That also drops their leg down. Sit in a chair and hold your arm and hand in a rein position and try it- do you feel the connections in play?

You can also sit in a chair and try this and see for yourself. Sit in a chair (that you can also straddle) with your legs in front of you. Have someone hold a bridle by the bit in front of you - you hold the reins, in full contact, - then stand up holding the rein contact. Now straddle the chair with your legs underneath you and stand up holding the rein contact - feel the difference? So does the horse! Some mom riding lessons