You are asking questions about equine behavior that you have not yet experienced.
Experienced horse people will be concerned when you tell them you are being chased/followed by your horse while training it in the pasture, because this is outside the norm of traditional horse training practices.
Your post reminds me of a time when I was asked to examine a so called ‘dangerous horse’ many years ago, and give my opinion of the horse as a trainer. The horse had kicked it’s owner in the pasture, and injured her. When I asked the owner what had happened. She said she was very interested in ‘natural horsemanship’, She had been reading books and watching videos, and She was apparently trying to emulate some kind of ‘liberty training’ that She had discovered while researching those materials.
In this case, the owner was working with the horse in some kind of ‘follow me game’ where the horse follows the trainer in an open area while at liberty. This activity was referred to as ‘a game’. The owner said her horse was acting excited, she rushed towards the horse, the horse then spun around and kicked her.
When I examined the horse it appeared well trained, obedient, and of a good temperament. It had no apparent pain issues, and displayed no signs of aggression at any time during my examination or handling of the horse.
I explained to the owner that her horse was probably confused about what the owner wanted from the horse. Horses can behave unpredictably. From a training perspective the game seemed to lack any kind of structured protocol for maintaining safety in the training area. When she rushed at her horse it spun and kicked her just the same as frolicking horses might do with one another while out in a pasture. The difference is that horses are able to sense when another horse is going to kick out, and they are usually fast enough to get out of the way. Horses sometimes play rough with each other in the pasture. Horses can nip and kick at each other without causing injury. But people are far more fragile, and what might be meant as a playful kick to a horse, can be forceful enough to severely injure a person.
My final advice to her was not to play with her horse in the pasture. That many horses form a territorial sense about what are work areas, and what are ‘time off’ areas. Certain horses may not enjoy being asked to work in an area they strongly associate as their ‘time off’ area. I recommended that she work with her horse under the supervision of an experienced trainer and learn a traditional foundational approach of horse training.
They are not allowed to approach me until cued, must slow to the walk to approach me, and are pattered to come in, stop and take a step back.
They also are patterned when moving at speed alongside me to give me my space, and to turn, slow or stop when I cue them-
When loose, focus needs to be on me, and I carry a whip- in fact I often carry two.
I understand how fun it is to play with them loose, but you are missing a lot of foundation skills here. I didn’t let the new gelding loose for almost a year while we patterned the responses I need on the line.
This! Liberty training is training and it only looks like play when you are watching from the bleachers.
I would also add that geldings have some capacity for play but mares are deadly serious about their social interactions.
Geldings are like 7 year old boys who can wrestle on the ground, declare a winner, and stay best friends.
Mares are like 11 year old girls who make each other run away crying in order to establish social hierarchies.
If a mare pins her ears at you she really means it and she expects you to either retaliate or run away.
In other words, mares tend to be Mean Girls at heart, but if you stand up to them they will admire you and try very hard to please you. And they won’t try the constant nip and nudge games that geldings find so hilarious.
Therefore it is a really bad idea to set up a situation where you appear to be running from a mare who is pinning her ears!
A horse plays like a horse, a human can play making as if a horse, but it is still a human playing horse games.
A human playing real horse games is similar as a human playing grizzly games, or a mouse playing cat games.
The bigger, stronger species will generally play until their playmate is broken, could not take the play and move on, they don’t understand any better.
Now, we can train play time with any species, but why go there?
Other than as a circus trick and very aware that it is a dangerous, well trained game and that at times thing go wrong and the human can get hurt or killed.
A horse used to playing with humans may, when you lead it to it’s turnout, switch ends on you, kick and take off as part of the game, a game that has killed horse trainers before.
Konrad Lorenz called humans the play animal, because we can play just for play’s sake and keep it that.
Practically all other species that seem to have play, if you watch, it doesn’t last long until it devolves into some kind of serious confrontation for resources.
In the young especially, play is a way to learn those interacting/battle skills.
If OP wants to play with her horses at liberty, I hope now it will know more to make it training for the horse and limit it to very well controlled situations.
Someone gifted me a Parelli pack once long ago. I remember watching the Parellis “play at liberty” with their various horses and thinking, man, those horses don’t look like they’re playing. To me, those horses look ticked off and resentful. There’s something about it that I think horses don’t always like - maybe because the lines are blurred without the typical trappings of tack. Or, as others have said, people can’t adequately play horse with horses. Our signals get muddled or we misinterpret them, which is frustrating for the horse.
I know that PP isn’t overly popular (I’m not a big fan of PP but do believe in the essence of natural horsemanship).
To me, the biggest problem with PP and the like (not necessarily limited to just PP) is that many of the followers have learned by watching videos, not by being taught by true horsemen that have learned how to read horse body language and know how to establish one as the herd leader. Just watching a series of videos isn’t going to teach you that, it.just.isn’t.
I did work my second mare using some of the PP techniques but taught to me by someone who wasn’t a hard core PP disciple. The work I did with my mare was under the supervision of my trainer. Yes, I did work with my mare without my trainer but every time I took a lesson, I started with ground work with my trainer overseeing and offering guidance and suggestions. I used it to gauge the horse I had in front of me on that day and perhaps adjust the work plan I had :). I never did any liberty or bridle-less work with my mare, ever.
Circus training or Cavalia is not play. It is made to look like play for the sake of the audience. But it is training. Many aspects of liberty training done at slower gaits are not dangerous if you have a good groundwork foundation.
For your own safety, you need to stop this work at liberty. Others have pointed this out. I don’t mean to be harsh, but you sound extremely clueless about how horses think and react IRL. Horses are not oversized dogs. It sounds to me that you are acting like–and being perceived as–an annoying herd mate that is about due to be kicked. Don’t put yourself in this position.
I think with all training of animals, there has to be a clear reason for each piece, and also consideration of whether you can get to the end result in different ways. I can’t really imagine what the goal of this “liberty” work is? If the goal is a horse that respects you, I don’t see why doing it bridleless or loose is desirable in the process because you have no control. Sort of like taking a dog off lead and then trying to teach it to recall. It sure would make you wonder what you were thinking as you watch it run over the horizon and have no way to catch it.
I am around my loose horses every day, because of the way my barn is set up. They respect me and tend to stay out of my way. Because I generally ignore them and go about my business. They are horses. They don’t want to play with me, and they definitely don’t consider me one of their “herd.”
I’m the boss, and they know it. But if I need to train them, I make sure I have a way to correct them. Even my 33" mini outweighs me by 100lbs. They don’t do what I ask of them because they really like me; and it makes no sense to put myself in a position where I might lose. There’s a lot at stake when the trainee weighs 1100lbs.
I would suggest getting a dog for some on the ground training. Other than teaching horses to respect my space and have manners when leading them I don’t really understand the point of "at liberty training"with horses.
I guess there isn’t exactly a “point” per say. I got into it because my background was in training exotics, especially parrots- we work them loose for the most part, as they are rather difficult to leash (although I had one harness trained).
When I first got my mare she had been starved and had pretty much no use for humans at all. She was the first horse i ever started, and trick work was the key to her. It was something she is GOOD at- and she could work her brain. She is the smartest animal I have ever worked with, an the most opinionated. She rides well, but she works HARD at tricks- she is quite capable of being a liberty horse- BUT- she’s a bossy mare with a rocky past. She works on the line- I do not trust her completely when she is loose, so I do things with her that keep me in control. She knows about 25 behaviors at the moment, is learning roman riding and we have discussed sending her to Tommie Turvey for further training (He doesn’t have time for our guys until winter, and I may well not have the funds until next winter).
My OTTB gelding is my liberty horse. Focused, respectful, wants to be near me. He is in fact a Golden Retriever in a 16 hand horse suit. I worked him somewhere around 8 months with pretty intense groundwork and doing all the things I want from him at liberty while on a line. I’ve been working him loose for a little while now.
Liberty work is a trick- it’s an act- but it’s FUN. I don’t have a specific act that is planned out from mark to mark yet, but I have a general idea what I want him to do throughout. It is INTENSE- I have to be aware of his body and my body all the time. And, it has been good for my confidence. I had a couple bad falls, and am a somewhat anxious rider. Being able to read and react and control them just with body and voice and personality makes me feel competent. We like it so well that we just welcomed our newest equine, a mini we call “Stunt Man” (barn name turvey) to teach tricks as well. He’s hilarious.
I recently made a video of the gelding and I working at liberty. It helps me a lot to watch and see how he is reacting to my body, as well as see the moments where I had to adapt the plan. There is a moment when I sent him out and he resisted-I had to use more pressure, and then he went where he was told. I was not very close to him, and someone who doesn’t know him probably would miss it. I also see that he is waiting to break to walk until the last moment when approaching me, but he is stopping at enough distance that we are safe and will continue to refine.
It looks like magic to the OP. Looks like work to me. But we love it.
I’m going to guess that a lot of people who are reading this thread have no issue what-so-ever with vaulting, trick riding, at liberty work, or any other activity that incorporates the use of a training methodology that employs reason, safety, and good horse sense.
I don’t think this is about bashing anyone else’s hobby because it’s not in fashion with the cool-kids.
Speaking for myself, I’ve seen quite a lot of egotism in the horse world, and a whole lot of people who have it in their head that they have to prove something to themselves or others. It’s usually about measuring up to some level of achievement that the person has set for themselves as some sort of personal ambition.
There’s nothing wrong with ambition and having goals. That’s a part of what drives people to accomplish something with their life.
Where I see the issue in the horse world, is when people don’t learn the deeper meanings of classical horse training , and instead fixate of some ‘vision’ of some type of equine activity that they simply think looks cool. Then they go about attempting to do that ‘cool thing’ without having any real clue of the deeper levels of horsemanship that are actually involved for anyone to responsibly attempt that goal.
The horse would is full of people attempting to ‘look the part’ without being ‘the real deal’.
Much of the equine industry is based on the marketing of a ‘lifestyle image’, and their are plenty of people who are in the business of figuring out ways to let people live moments of their equine lifestyle dream-world, without having to make a life long career out of it.
This is why we have trainers to tell people how to ride, train their horses for them, and provide the answers for the complex questions.
Much of the horse world is just marketing. It’s the ads we see at the right side of this forum. It’s the awarding of ribbons at shows. Its the desire to fit-in at the barn and participate in the fun. For some it’s just the companionship of having a furry horse friend.
But somewhere, someone, is always marketing ideas for what people can do with their horses that seem cool, exciting, fun, or some kind of bonding experience with your horse, or other horse people. These are the things that people are primarily attracted to. So there’s a real enticement for someone to want to get right to the fun stuff, while not having the complete set of horsemanship skills under one’s belt that one really ought to have beforehand.
This means that some people may be fortunate and have saintly horses who tolerate being repetitively confused.
But sometimes, some horses are not so tolerant. And therein lies the dilemma I think is at the root of this particular thread.
To say it in a different way. At liberty work is complex stuff. If you have to ask people on the internet how to do it, it’s likely that you’re probably not yet ready for doing that type of work with your horse all on your own.
Agreed. It sounds in the post above that the liberty work IS the goal - a type of trick training and/or an act. And the process of getting to that finished product can be fun.
But most of the time I have seen threads about “liberty work” they are for some fuzzy purpose of forming a stronger relationship or gaining respect. And I am not sure that there are always identifiable end goals or even steps toward that goal. E.g. if your end goal is a riding horse that respects your space on the ground, I think there are many ways to achieve that without chasing (or being chased) around by 1000lb animals.
I stopped reading after “…but she will kind of leap into a trot with her ears back and follow.”
Leaping into any gait with ears back means she’s chasing you, not following.
You’re going to get hurt.
I understand there’s a ton of YouTube videos with lovely ‘at liberty’ work being done. Some even have the horses on their backs and the handler laying between their legs, or heaven forbid that “cute” photo of the horse hugging his mom with his front leg laced around and behind her.
Look, do what you want. But remember you’re dealing with a +/- 1,000 lb animal that can and will hurt you badly with just a misplaced hoof or head. I’ve got $40k worth of dental work in my head from a horse who was ‘playing’. IN. HAND.
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ETA: I just read through some others’ responses and am so grateful I’m not the only one who’s cautioning the OP. At least some semblance of training and good horsemanship still exist.
I would like to hear from OP again to get their reaction and thoughts on the suggestions and advice that have been offered here.
I wonder if we will hear from them again as I suspect the commentary from the COTH collective isn’t what they wanted to hear. I hope they don’t get hurt by their frisky mare at liberty :eek:
I agree with you, but based on the OP’s post, I don’t think they should be doing liberty with any dominant horse or really any horse of that matter.
I do some liberty with my pony and its fun, we can do obstacles, tricks, and such…but a beginner at reading body language should not be doing liberty without the help of someone experienced.
My point was you need to approach liberty training as training, and it takes in fact more skills than work in hand.
And people get attracted to it because they mistakenly believe it’s play and they don’t need any skills.
I also know folks who round pen because they dont have the co ordination and body awareness to longe. That does not work well.
OP has been around COTH about a year with a range of beginner/ backyard horse questions spanning several disciplines. I’m sure we’ll get an update eventually.
My wonderful sweet kind gelding (but slightly dominant) came galloping up because I was taking his buddy out of the pasture. He pinned his ears at me as he approached, so I chased him back so far I thought he was going to sit down by pinning my mental ears and snaking my head, moving toward him with intent, growling, and waving my arms like a mad fool…then he approached much more respectfully and was allowed to do so. I probably looked like a complete moron, but he needed to understand. He’s a dominant sort who ends up bossing the field around, so I don’t accept any faces or even minorly aggressive movements. 'Cause I don’t want to get hurt or killed because he thinks that it’s ok.
The treatment of horses needs to be fair, empathetic and understandable (to them), but they need never be allowed to show any threatening behaviors to you. Ever. And those ears are definitely a threat. Take them seriously,
@Scribbler I hope you’re right & OP is digesting COTH advice & will act on it.
My own experience with Liberty/Trick training was when I shareboarded a QH whose owner thought teaching him to Shake Hands was a cute trick.
Cute…until you bent to pick a front foot & that leg came up at your face - he was performing the trick that got him a treat from her.
From me he got a growl & shoulder smack & learned Homey (me) Don’t Play That!
I did teach my TB to bow, but only when I was on the ground & only when he heard the peppermint wrapper crinkle.
No unsolicited bowing allowed.
As for mare aggression: watched a timid owner longe her (small TB) mare.
Mare repeatedly came in off the circle, ears pinned, neck snaked & aiming an occasional kick at her owner.
Owner waved whip in mare’s direction to get her back out & TG, mare was not all that determined to injure her.
Neither one was enjoying that “play”.
