Horse goes low/behind - which hand(s) to raise the head? *video downthread*

[endlessclimb]

My question: Young mare has a tendency to go too low and/or behind the contact, even with no change in my hands. I’ve noticed it gets worse with fatigue, so I give her lots and lots of breaks (plus, she just turned 4, her fitness isn’t up to par and won’t be for another several years really).

When raising her head to get her back where she should be, which hand is responsible (inside/outside)? Or both?

It goes without saying that leg is obviously added when trying to adjust her body, but she would happily just go “forward” without attempting to come to contact and just stay down there, sometimes with the reins loopy.

She seems to respond best to the inside hand doing it, with the outside remaining to contain the shoulder. I don’t know which is technically correct though.

Background: This is for my young mare, just turned 4. She has been ridden in a 20mm mullen soft Trust bit for the last year, and just got transitioned to a D-ring with large lozenge that I put sealtex on the bar area of the bit to mimic the feel and diameter of the Trust. She is approximately the same in both bits, maybe too soon to tell with the new one because she’s only been in it a couple weeks. She never gets ridden hard - for the past year it was maximum 3 rides a week for <35 mins including warmup, focused on forward and basic transitions. On that, I really haven’t had much time to truly work on this, but now that she’s turned 4 the workload is going to go up a bit.

This mare will willingly go around with her nose dragging the sand, on the lunge or under saddle. She is currently downhill but may (or may not) grow out of it. Though she is an OTTB, I have the attention of HUS QH folks, that’s how low and sweepy she goes.

[endlessclimb]

Here is a picture of how she will go when “fresh”, or lower (if allowed). When she starts to fatigue she begins shrimp curling her neck in an attempt to evade my asking her to come up. Young horse things, I’m not stressed. Just don’t know technically what’s the best way to bring her up to “reset”.

[fordtraktor]

I am no dressage superstar but have ridden a lot of TBs. don’t release the contact when she curls, and don’t fuss with the mouth either. She is hiding back there because it is easier, so it needs to 1. Not be easier any more and 2. You have to help her figure out that what you actually want is easier. So releasing contact much when she curls will just teach her to do it.

But honestly, what I do is 1. Kick them forward, really forward and 2. Ride the horse out to the bit instead of thinking about using the bit to get her to give. I’d rather sacrifice a bit of top line shape and not worry that much about being round — as curling is by far the worst option here and you need to fix that first. If it is bad in the moment and the head isn’t coming up, I might “bump” a tiny bit with squeezing both hands to get the curled neck unstuck.

Also, sit back. I am a reformed HJ rider too and your horse can’t move in a more uphill frame if your weight is balanced over her shoulders. You are pushing her down in the front literally. I struggle with this too so I know how hard it is to break as a habit. I find riding in a dressage saddle that fits makes a huge difference. Super cute mare!

Also, when I have one that naturally wants to go like this; I do NOT ride it long and low. Like, ever. It is counterproductive, or so my GP trainer says. Your horse wants to carry herself long and low, but your aim is to teach her that “no, we carry ourselves this different way now, I will give you lots of breaks and not make it too hard for you physically but please use your body differently, long and low is not what I expect or want.” Be sure to take it slow, it takes time for her to build those new muscles.

[KayGee]

How your horse responds best (inside with the outside remaining steady) is also how my young horse responds best and what my trainer recommends along with more leg (of course!).

Right or wrong, it works for us especially since my first reaction is to shag the horse off my hands wrecking the connection we so diligently worked to get. Thanks to my lengthy history in wp and hus, I be like Phil Collins…Throwing It All Away. What do you do with your inside rein when she curls?
She’s beautiful btw!

[endlessclimb]

@fordtraktor

Also, sit back. I am a reformed HJ rider too and your horse can’t move in a more uphill frame if your weight is balanced over her shoulders. You are pushing her down in the front literally. I struggle with this too so I know how hard it is to break as a habit. I find riding in a dressage saddle that fits makes a huge difference. Super cute mare!

For the first while, she really did not appreciate being sat on at the canter, so I was doing everything in my jump saddle so I could more easily alternate between two point and sitting. I do need to sit back! I’ve just started riding in the dressage saddle again - this picture is from early last fall when we were still working on the whole “let me sit you at the canter” bit.

I don’t release her when she curls, I raise my inside hand to get her “uncurled” and back to vertical (or above, I don’t care) while legging her on. I just don’t know if the inside rein is correct - should it be the outside? Or both hands?

I will stop the long and low. It is rather amusing to me to let her go around as low as she wants - she will go so low as to kick her own chin. I laugh because it feels like riding a horse with no head. I give her tons of breaks. I’m sure some might say too many, but I’d rather be too easy on a young horse than too hard!

[endlessclimb]

No shagging here, I do keep the contact. I don’t know if the inside rein is “technically” correct though. When I use the outside rein, I feel like some of the connection gets lost - that can more likely be attributed to my lack of skill rather than correct/incorrect though.

[eightpondfarm]

my greenies spend 99% of their first year of training at the walk.

[endlessclimb]

We do a boatload of that on trail rides. I am no big fan of endless arena work, but in the winter the options get limited in a hurry.

[endlessclimb]

I see you added a little more info with an edit. I’ve used both hands before and it seems to work about as well as the inside hand only. I’m going to push for more forward - I do put a lot of leg on, but I probably don’t make the curling as “hard” as I should. She’s got a lot of gears - she’s barefoot now but trying to keep shoes on her is going to be a real treat.

[fordtraktor]

Ok, I would say which hand really depends on how her body is positioned at the moment. Inside leg to outside hand is really kind of oversimplifying…which hand combination I use depends on if she feels straight and even in the contact (then bump with both), or if she’s locked or bulging in either shoulder, then I’d bump with the “good rein” and hold steady on the stiff one until she gives. If she is ducking totally, bump up with both though and kick forward. and then back immediately to steady contact. Does that make sense? You can’t fix curling with the reins, it just gets you a little reset so you can try again. With babies I find the “good rein” can change daily (or within the same ride.)

[fordtraktor]

Good plan. Also keep in mind that the amount of leg doesn’t need to be constant or heavy—but she needs to GO when you put it on. Then just leave it quiet until you need it again. Another holdover from HJ is that my idea of “a lot of leg” was more of a constant pressure which drives my Ferrari dressage horse mad and I have had to unlearn. Dressage “add leg” also involves “taking it off” as soon as a forward response is obtained. Not sure if this might be an issue in your case, but I do know it is a very common issue for us HJ expats.

[soloudinhere]

You need to work on installing the “wheelie half halt” if you think about what it takes to pop a wheelie on a bike - that is the same feeling. The leg is on, the hand closes, and you lift the seat like you are bringing the front wheel of a bike off the ground. You are showing the horse “head up” by sitting down behind and pushing more from the hind leg. The head lifts because the shoulders lift.

How installed is your half halt?

[fordtraktor]

Yes this! This is exactly what I was trying to explain.

[endlessclimb]

She’s 4, with minimal riding, so it isn’t what I’d call a wheelie, but it’s in there. As she gets fatigued (or if she’s really fresh to start), it’s not as drastic. It’s something we work on every ride, and it’s much improved from where we started.

@fordtraktor She goes when I put my leg on, for sure. I don’t tolerate nagging, forward is a must, and I am more than willing to back it up and go for a gallop if I don’t get what I want the first ask.

[MsM]

Transitions, transitions, transitions! The longer she goes in one gait the more she can tip forward and make it difficult for herself to raise that front end. Keep them somewhat gradual at first to not scare her with a sudden change in balance. As she anticipates a trot-walk transition she will naturally shift her weight back and the neck will start to come up. Transitions and largish circles will help her rebalance. You also may need to slow and even shorten her trot a bit for a while so she can balance. Yep, gonna take some time.

[endlessclimb]

I understand that forward =/= fast, but the “lift” concept can definitely be a work in progress with the young and ignorant ones. We do a lot of moving around in the gaits, and the transitions between them are not perfect but improving. She’s young, I’m not stressed about any timeline, so the progress comes as it comes. She’s been really fun to bring along so far.

She’s reasonably athletic, so can almost lift from a curled position. Definitely room for improvement on this front! It gets tedious, and I feel like I’m picking on her sometimes (even if the moves are subtle, and for the right reasons), but these habits need to be fixed asap so they don’t become ingrained.

She tries really hard, so once she “gets it” I think we’ll be golden and she will overall stop trying to suck back there.

[endlessclimb]

Love how you explained this, she can go from evading to bearing down, to evading in a new york minute, so using the “good rein” is a great way to word it. Thank you!

[Manni01]

My opinion which might be completely useless, my trainer would get mad at me if I would ask her how to use my hands to lift up my horses head …
Of course I don’t ask her but if I try to cheat a little and use my hands to lift my mares head ( because she loves to curl as a method of evasion ) my trainer yells at me…

I have to keep my hands always in the same position but have to adjust the lenght of my reins… And with my mare we just ride through all phases of evasion. If you keep your hands quiet and never ever pull on the reins while keeping a steady contact while pushing from behind every time she tries to destroy the contact you should end up eventually with a horse who is trusting and respecting your aids…
I know that it does work, but I would still recommend to look for a trainer, because timing is really important and I for my person am not able to get the timing correctly. I have been riding for a long time and I know basically how it is supposed to feel and what to do, but it does make a big difference with correct timing.
But it will get better over time. Your aim is really to get your horse into a balanced way of moving. for that you need the right tempo for this specific horse, the right lenght of reins and the right amount of all your aids… Once it all goes together you will feel in heaven, but I still think it’s tricky to do it without somebody watching and supporting you from the ground… Especially the right tempo will make a huge difference, because some horses speed up in order to evade your aids…

Good luck! She looks lovely

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

In the photo she doesnt appear to be curling so much as lowering her neck .

As the other poster commented you really need to get your shoulders back and your sternum up .

The lowering of the neck is her compensating for the lack of muscle tone.

I believe introducing lateral work will help you with this. If you havent already introduce turn on the forehand and shoulder fore.

Also second the poster who recommended transitions from gait to gait and within the gait.

The key here is not to let her go too long incorrectly . That’s why transitions are so good. Ask her to maintain self carriage but dont over tax her.

Cavaletties may be useful too. She will have to actually engage her joints.

Usually you engage the outside rein when using a half halt. So, when tends to want to lower her neck you want to apply the leg aid and use the outside rein .

This is what I was taught.

Hope you find this useful.

[endlessclimb]

Oh tempo is not an issue with this girl. She has the most lovely, metronome, trot. Thank god I don’t have high level aspirations, because speeding up her hind legs to any large degree will be difficult. She moves more like a ring “hunter” than anything else.

I’m not so much interested in raising her head as I am stopping the curling. If I just stayed with her there, even with legging her on, I think she would be glad to go that way for more time than I care to allow. I don’t want her to learn how to be back there, but perhaps I’m thinking about it wrong.