Horse has learned to dump people to get out of work.

[beowulf]

@mvp;8688201

I disagree that bucking at the canter always means pain… in the sense that there’s a lot of it and you should chase it. Sure, try to rule out a physical cause. But remember, too, that bucking while canter is pretty easy for the big horse bred to have a powerful hind end. And if he discovers it earns him a rest, it’s natural that he’d use his spectacular physical equipment in order to get what he wants. Nothin’ wrong with that!

I agree, it doesn’t ALWAYS mean pain which is why I wrote ‘almost always’ :winkgrin:

In my experience, horses who feel good (that may be green, for example, an OTTB) might give you a buck when they first get into a canter. Some crack their backs and I see it like cracking your knuckles, and then they buckle down. The trick is looking at the context of the situation.

Horses who feel bad buck when you are working on cantering, or asking them to do something that is physically challenging.

Horses absolutely do form habits, and the poster that said it only takes 3x is right. However, what OP wrote makes me think it’s discomfort. Horses that want you off will get you off at any gait; they don’t scheme and plot and wait until you canter to do it.

@DQintraining

Today, I asked him to continue cantering when he tried to break, and before I knew it I was on the ground.

Sounds to me like it’s hard for him, for whatever reason. The more experience I have with big horses in general the more I realize a lot of them are more stoic than we realize; an 18h horse is huge – I know a lot of horses that size that are plagued with SI issues and hoof issues. Is it their size? I don’t know. But I think it’s worth investigating for the horse’s sake any possible pain issue before throwing your hands up in the air and saying “oh, he’s a Jazz grandson, he’s just being a dick”.

I really don’t think the average (non-rogue) horse is predisposed to being a dick or violent until he is asked something that hurts him to do. OP’s horse does not sound like a rogue.

[Personal_Champ]

Horses absolutely can learn that if they do X, they get Y. That’s the premise of training, and we hope to channel their intelligence for good, not evil.

My mare, when she came to me, did try bucking like a bronc every time you got on. It was lessened if you gave her a quick 10 minute lunge to get her thinking “work” and forward, but she still tried for about a week. And I mean full out, twisting, bronco bucking. She would buck buck buck and then turn around and look at me, and the look on her face was clearly, “shit, she’s still up there!”, upon which we could happily resume work.

After that first week, she’s never tried to dump me again, and that was 5 years ago.

[Countrywood]

The owner may want to think of a different career for this horse than dressage? Like a very fancy fox hunter or trail horse. Some 18 h horses the smaller circles and carrying doesnt’ work for them ( and some regular size horses just flat out dislike dressage work)

I would suggest owner put him with a hunter or event rider for a bit, see if he likes galloping out or how he handles small jumps. If nothing else will do him good at his age .

I do think a few horses are mean, not many but a few, or more likely they just get at some point in the work tired of being ridden, or are asked for more than they can (or want ) to give. At that point depending on horse they may may buck or spook or shut down/ balk out of frustration. But I don’t think , even if the rider gets dumped they do it to get out of work. A rider pre dumped surely does some bouncing around then the rider flying off and landing scares horses ( many run off afterward). If they were capable of plotting to get out of work, why not buck the rider off at mounting block and be done with it?

Working this out on lunge line is an idea as well, though an 18 h horse is hard to lunge in a circle not great for the hors’es legs at that size.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8688336]

Sounds to me like it’s hard for him, for whatever reason. The more experience I have with big horses in general the more I realize a lot of them are more stoic than we realize; an 18h horse is huge – I know a lot of horses that size that are plagued with SI issues and hoof issues. Is it their size? I don’t know.[/QUOTE]

I’ll bet staying in a canter and/or having this horse’s rider begin to pick up contact in canter after she has established it is hard for this large, relatively immature horse. It’s a tad surprising to me that he will go from “I’d like to fall out into the trot” to “I will buck hard if you send me forward.” It surprises me because the falling out of the canter means that the hiney is falling out behind the horse already. It would take a lot to, instead, tuck that back up underneath him for a buck. What an athlete!

But I think this is probably also a baby horse who doesn’t yet know that when the going gets tough (i.e. he is asked to use his hind end more at the canter and stay there or accept some minor “packaging” from his rider), he’s got to dig in with his hind end and try. He doesn’t get to decide when it’s too hard and tell his rider N.O.

Again, I think this is a green horse “How to accept training” question. Don’t take it personally! Work ethics are taught, not born in to all of 'em.

[ASB_Stars]

I’m going to take the dark side on this one. I had a three year old mare sent to me by the breeder, many long years ago. They started her, and she started bucking them off. She was a lanky thing, attractive, and easy on the ground. These people were meticulous about not starting something before it was ready, and one member of the family does equine chiro.

I started riding her, slow and easy, walk-trot. No problems. This went on for a couple of weeks. Then, one day, we were trotting, and she backed up out of the bridle, and started cantering, and leaping through the air. I was riding her in a paddock, where I’d had her before. This mare was catching a whole lot of air, then she would land, plunge her head down between her legs, and do it all again. We started heading for the trees, and I bailed off of her. She went for me in the air- flipped me, and I landed on the back of my neck.

In any event, some horses are NOT nice. Her owners took her back, and I have no idea what they did with her, but we did discuss Cowtown Rodeo.

I had a gelding who was 7, who had a reputation for pitching riders, as a Medal/MacClay horse. He was just scared- he had gotten the crap beaten out of him, when his riders made mistakes, and so, he would spin around to go for the buck, I just sat chilly, and rode him forward from whatever point we were at. He gave it up. He became a fabulous schoolmaster.

You have to know what you are up against. Some horses simply aren’t worth the risk.

[starsandsun]

OP says the horse is ‘dirty at the trot’ as well. Would like to know more about the sister and what about her is dangerous.

I have a friend who is no longer working with two related youngsters who unfortunately have taken after their dam, who is unrideable. Both are dangerously unpredictable. They’ve been well handled their whole lives, and well started by a professional, but one launches with no warning and one runs backwards. It may be that some brains are just not wired for a good, safe partnership.

[whitney159]

When asked to canter the first time, he’s fine? He just gets tired and falls out.
That to ME says this isn’t a pain issue. If he had issues with saddle fit or was in pain and had pain at the canter, I would expect resistance when asked to canter the FIRST time, not after he fell out of it.

I’m voting for a big young horse who now has a card in his file that reads “buck off rider, get a break”. Or at the very least is trying to simply say “No, I don’t want to canter more”.

Horses absolutely do buck as a way of saying no. That it takes more work to put out a good buck vs. just cantering on is not something I expect a horse to think their way through. I used to know a certain police horse that had several terrible officers ride him, who were easily dumped at a canter with just a small crow hop. So he would take two strides of canter and do it every single time. And then it was “woohoo, I’m free!”. I don’t think he did it to be mean, perhaps it just broke up the boredom. When I worked him, he would do it, it would fail to get me off and he would go on happily and canter.

[Mondo]

My old teacher, Melle van Bruggen had a little bit of doggerel he’d mumble whenever I rode into the ring on my Dutch mare. “Wooden head, wooden sides, wooden shoes, wooden ride.” LOL And yes, that mare was a nasty piece of work in the canter too and she didn’t have youth or extreme size (was 17 hands not 18) as excuses. She didn’t buck so much as put her head vertical (so she couldn’t see where she was going) and bolt.

To the OP, you’ve received a lot of great info here. I would go the extra mile to rule out possible physical/pain issues. Then I would suggest that you keep the cantering to the ground work for now. Does he buck on the lunge in canter too, or just under saddle? If no physical reason other than youth for his bucking, then you probably do need to get a cowboy or someone who will not come off to break the habit before it gets much worse.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=whitney159;8688548]
When asked to canter the first time, he’s fine? He just gets tired and falls out.
That to ME says this isn’t a pain issue. [/QUOTE]

On the contrary, I find that most horses are sufficiently tolerant of minor discomfort - it is when the work increases or a rider becomes more demanding that they will say “no, this hurts too much, get off”. OP’s horse did buck at the beginning of the canter too though. The fact he is bucking when OP asks him to really work makes me think he is in pain somewhere.

I’ve ridden a few who had saddle fit issues and SI issues, and the fact that he does this at the canter is very telling - the canter is the gait in which the back naturally rounds up as the hinds travel in ‘pairs’, makes for a lot of movement and if your saddle is restrictive or the back resistant. The canter is when these more subtle SI issues really start to become obvious. It’s also when horses who have SI or saddle fit issues will start to buck. Usually it is when you are breaking the canter, or trying to get them to shorten or lengthen their stride or sit deeper in the tack.

Years ago, before I discovered COTH, I had a green horse who I just could not get to work with me at the canter. The signs started subtle enough; bracing, resistant. Had his saddle fitted, had the vet out, he was sound, just deemed a ‘challenger’. A year or so passed, I worked with not one but TWO highly respected UL event riders that could not get him round. Took him to many clinics and trainers with no improvement. Some even called him a rogue. Worked through the issues, spent a summer working on dressage only, and he started to really lash out the canter; brace, buck, bolt… trainers and vet alike convinced it was a training issue… one day I had enough when he turned around and charged me down in a paddock - he had never once in all his life been aggressive on the ground. That to ME said he was hurting. Took him to a top lameness vet in the NE who diagnosed him with severe sacroiliac pain and inflammation caused by a saddle that had been fitted every 6 months to him his entire life. The damage was long lasting and residual. I had checked all the boxes and it still wasn’t enough for this guy. The vet said the horse was sound and that most people would have missed it, but that he was glad he was able to look at his back because he was a real case study. The saddle in question had no defects or deformities and it was one of those things that fit on paper but it didn’t matter to the horse. He had had it reflocked so many times, by many different top fitters in the NE. It didn’t matter.

A round of mesotherapy, rehab, a new saddle that was fitted to him by a separate fitter and all the sudden I had this soft, supple, sweet horse who never bucked again. That experience made me so critical of saddle fit, but it’s been a good thing as I have caught along the way several saddle fit issues.

My point is, you need to involve experts. Multiple experts, because not all experts are correct all the time.

There really are very, very few rogues and many of them are made, IMHO. I really don’t think most horses deliberately get people off - for many horses, launching a rider is a very traumatic incident for them.

Context and language is important too - OP immediately jumps to blaming the horse. “Horse has learned to dump rider”. But discloses no diagnostics have been done to ‘troubleshoot’ the problematic horse. Makes me more suspect it is a pain issue. Sound? On who’s expertise? Has a vet deemed him sound? I see people say a 3/5 horse is sound, on a daily basis. OP admits she is angry with the horse and has been bucked off three times in one week. Has this affected her riding with him?

Just food for thought.

[Dressagelvr]

I agree with those who say that horses don’t act out of spite. They react to pain, discomfort, and lack of clarity from their riders.

Sorry that happened. IF someone else owns him, I would encourage them to get him checked for kissing spines or any other issue.

What you describe does sound suspicious for kissing spine. What is this horse like on the longe?

You two must not have much experience with smart, sour, unsuitable lesson horses.

I’m not sure I can think of a group of more poorly cared for and under appreciated horses than lesson horses. I will never understand why people think a horse should just sit there like a machine and tolerate pain and poor riding. Beginners and those requiring remedial instructions should be taught on simulators and moved to real horses later.

[GraceLikeRain]

[QUOTE=FatDinah;8688141]
I don’t believe any horse is capable of planning/doing a buck to get out of work. We (humans) anthrmorphize their behavior way too much.

Some thing prompts him to buck. Figure out what that is and see if it is fixable.[/QUOTE]

I strongly disagree. I think the vast majority of horses buck to express discomfort.

However, I know of several horses who have undergone extensive work ups, chiro, saddle fit, etc, etc, etc. to the tune of thousands upon thousands of dollars. All were young and allowed to travel behind the leg early on. The bucking directly correlated with increased expectations for gait responsibility and maintaining forward.

With two I got the opportunity to watch a trainer transform them. One has taken several months and the other one session. With both, leg was applied, horse bucked, rider reinforced with crop, and repeat. One did not take a single step between bucks for an entire arena straight. He then took a forward step, was rewarded, and that was it. Literally, that was it. He needed to understand that forward was a requirement and once that requirement was set, he was happy to work.

The other is more of the stereotypical mare (sensitive and cranky). After one session she understood the concept. She still is trying the behavior occasionally but the behavior has greatly diminished. If a horse is uncomfortable I wouldn’t expect to see the forward response to be more free, through, loose, etc. as nothing in their way of going indicates a hint of stiffness or discomfort. Once forward they are swinging through the back, soft in the bridle, and floppy-ear happy to work.

OP I have no idea if this horse is reacting because of pain or if he has learned how to crack his back rather than go forward. I just wanted to chime in because I think that it has the possibility of being a learned behavior without a pain foundation.

Regardless, I think sorting through the issue ASAP is imperative. A 18h horse who can throw a mean buck is a dangerous horse to have around. Once you address any potential pain sources it may be worthwhile to ship him to someone known for working through behavioral issues. I love a good cowboy but I do think that a potential downside is that some prioritize soft before forward (more french-esque style). If the horse is bucking out of an unwillingness to go forward, a cowboy may never prompt the same behavior and thus is limited in what can be addressed. Obviously, that is painting with broad strokes and plenty of cowboy types are very willing to hand gallop a 18h horse to ensure that the forward button works.

[keysfins]

Whomever is riding this horse, please wear a safety vest at the very least. Won’t prevent all injuries, but might give the rider more protection.

[Big_Tag]

I really have no advice in this situation, but I don’t understand the notion that horses only buck out of discomfort. Have you not seen horses tear across the field bucking to their hearts’ content? I know for sure I have ridden horses that exuberantly buck when they are feeling fresh. I’m guessing that’s not the case here given the history/circumstances but I’m 100% sure horses buck for reasons other than discomfort.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Big_Tag;8688843]
I really have no advice in this situation, but I don’t understand the notion that horses only buck out of discomfort. Have you not seen horses tear across the field bucking to their hearts’ content? I know for sure I have ridden horses that exuberantly buck when they are feeling fresh. I’m guessing that’s not the case here given the history/circumstances but I’m 100% sure horses buck for reasons other than discomfort.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think anyone here is saying horses only buck when it is discomfort.We all know horses buck to express exuberance or displeasure. But a majority are saying that when undersaddle and at the canter, bucking during work is considered a sign of discomfort. YMMV.

You have to remember that bucking in of itself is actually a defensive mechanism. It’s used to get prey or threatening things off their back.

[ASBJumper]

While I do think the OP should invest in some more in-depth diagnostics (kissing spines is a definitely a possibility), I will nonetheless play devil’s advocate:

What happens if ANOTHER physical issue comes up later? What then? This is clearly the horse’s go-to behaviour if he is, in fact sore. Horses pull/strain things/ tear things/ bang things, scrape, injure themselves on a semi-regular basis - should you really keep a horse that’s essentially a ticking time bomb until the next booboo? Or when he finds something very physically demanding/exhausting and he decides, in all his 18hh glory, to flip you the bird and send you flying?

There are plenty, and I mean PLENTY, of horses out there who will either work through pain or who will communicate discomfort in much more polite ways. I’ve had one who simply sped up and tensed at the canter, pinning her ears when asked for the canter transition. That’s it. I’ve had one who planted and refused to go forward. I’ve had one who swished her tail, snaked her head and pinned her ears. I’ve had one who would go disunited at the canter and break. I’ve had one who would canter sideways and throw her head up.

All of the above were in pain in one way or another - yet all of them drove the point across in a safe, non-violent manner. Because their work ethic was top notch, because they took care of their rider and desperately wanted to please.

So, OP - there is definitely x-rays/diagnostic work to be done on this horse. However, if you’re this annoyed/frustrated by this sort of behaviour, then perhaps you should find another horse. There are many riders out there who will totally forgive a**hole behaviour in a horse if they are fancy and competitive - I know, i’ve witnessed it firsthand over and over. You have to decide if you are one of those riders.

Good luck.

[Mondo]

“Beginners and those requiring remedial instructions should be taught on simulators and moved to real horses later.” ROFL. Thank you for the good laugh. I wish I had $70,000 for a simulator to start beginners on. If I had that kind of dough I’d by myself a decent horse, not a fake beginner horse.

[Eclectic_Horseman]

My $.02

1. This horse needs someone who can stay on to ride it for a while. The more the horse practices at bucking someone off the better that it will get at it.

2. That doesn’t mean that the OP or any previous riders that he has dumped will ever be able to ride him again. Once a horse has your number, he will keep trying to buck you off. If he succeeds, then he is back to practicing his stuff.

It really doesn’t matter what the original cause of the bucking is. Could be discomfort, could be intolerance for the riders skill level, could be lack of strength and balance, could be a lousy work ethic. It really doesn’t matter because once a horse learns that he can do this, then he WILL do it. And he will get better and better at it until he becomes truly dangerous.

[GraceLikeRain]

[QUOTE=Mondo;8688865]
“Beginners and those requiring remedial instructions should be taught on simulators and moved to real horses later.” ROFL. Thank you for the good laugh. I wish I had $70,000 for a simulator to start beginners on. If I had that kind of dough I’d by myself a decent horse, not a fake beginner horse.[/QUOTE]

They are absolutely not economical right now, but what if they were? If they were high-quality and widely available for $10k I think they would be a fantastic option. There is no substitute for actually being on a horse, but I think many fundamentals about balance and basic “feel” could be taught. Personally, I’d have one instead of a couch if money were no option!

[HorsesinHaiti]

[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;8688289]
You two must not have much experience with smart, sour, unsuitable lesson horses. Some horses absolutely will deliberately dump a rider to get out of work or avoid doing something they don’t want to do. Fortunately, they aren’t all that common.[/QUOTE]

Or rub the rider off on the fence/ trees/ etc, or take off and then do a dirty stop, … ponies got their reputations with moves like this.

[Megaladon]

[QUOTE=DQintraining;8687921]
I am admittedly a bit angry while writing this post. Today, for the third time in a week, I was bucked off a horse I have been riding for a long time.

He is a 6 year old Dutch Warmblood gelding by Johnson, out of a Jet Set mare. He had 30 days put on him by a Western trainer as a 4 year old, and has been in consistent training with me since then. The gelding has never been easy, in fact he is one of the most difficult horses I’ve ridden. It has taken him a long time to mature, since he stands 18hh, and I find Johnson babies to be slow to grow up. He is characteristically a bit lazy, you must work to keep him in front of your leg. The trot is now quite lovely and forward.

The problem is, he has learned to buck people off in the canter. It mostly happens when he tries to fall out of the canter, and you don’t let him. Today, I asked him to continue cantering when he tried to break, and before I knew it I was on the ground. Earlier in the week, he bucked me off when I asked for a canter transition.

I really don’t think it is a physical problem. He is UTD on teeth, is sound, and does not appear to be sore anywhere. The saddle fits well.

I live in a small area, with very few trainers, let alone good ones. His owner believes that there is no one around here that could stay on any better than I can. His full sister has been deemed unsafe to ride, is it possible that maybe he is just too dangerous to bother with? Has anyone been through a similar situation?[/QUOTE]

OP, I think it’s really time for a heart to heart with yourself. I’m assuming you train horses for a living? Is it worth training this horse in regards to your safety?

My personal experience: When I was 16 I was a working student at a very awesome barn with an extremely talented, capable and experienced husband/wife team. A gorgeous, black KWPN came in for training. He was bought for cheap because he was proving to be a bit of a challenge and then some for the trainer of another barn–he would rear and fall over on people. I fell in love with this horse. He was a sweetheart on the ground, on the lunge. I was even lunging him one day when the horses got loose on the farm and he was perfect. Undersaddle, however, he was dangerous! There was no getting around it. Both the husband and wife could not untrain this behaviour out of this horse. They decided it wasn’t worth the risk and dropped the client.

I of course, desperately wanted my parents to buy him, but luckily, they were very smart and didn’t. However, I do look back and wonder if a training stable was not the place for him. If it was too much, too fast, too stressful? Would he have been better with one person on a small farm with no high-level demands?

I’m all for the medical workups/examinations that many a post has mentioned, but I wanted you to know that sometimes in horses you have to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em and know when to walk away. Good luck to you!!