If it was my horse I would first have a vet/chiro x-ray and evaluate the back. Sounds soooo similar to two horses I know who ended up having kissing spine. They spent so much time and money on training and finally had a full workup done. They would have been so much better off spending their money on a vet right off the bat. IF it’s not physical then I would send him to a kind, but firm and very sticky cowboy. Habits can start because of pain/fear/lack of understanding but they can then turn into a go-to habit even when pain/fear are removed. I honestly wouldn’t canter this horse again until a vet x-rays that back and then if cleared he goes straight to the cowboy who won’t come off and can teach him bucking is not a viable solution.
“the saddle fits well”
according to whom
perhaps time for a second or third opinion
this horse is large and young. Perhaps a bute trial, perhaps a month layoff
and horses can be sore in the hock stifles and lumbar spine and not be limping lame
agree about concerns with spine issues in general
thoughtful consideration as to what was wrong with the full siter. May be some bad breeding here
At 18hh, that could point to some issues for sure. That is unusual even for Wb’s and often there is issues with that type of growth.
Aside from that, can you go back to ground work
Lunge him and drive him so you have respect and obedience on the ground. Get his transitions down, contact and eventually a bit of collection. He will learn without you eating dirt. If he is having physical issues, you can see this from the ground. I would recommend doing a couple months of ground work till you have him listening. I do not mean PP stuff, I mean traditional dressage and the training pyramid.
And the KWPN is often (and right now) the top dressage producing studbook. They do have some lines, like Jazz that are not for everyone. But they are very talented.
I agree with the above posts particularity 41. You came off three times in one week and are very lucky you were not hurt. How long can you be lucky, and he sounds like he is no closer to being stripped of this habit. Especially since you’ve been riding him a long time and the violent bucking is recent, could be saddle fit or undiagnosed issue. Tell the owner you do not feel safe riding him, that at this point she needs to get xrays done to eliminate possibility of a problem ( and get a saddle fitter out if not already done ). If she won’t pay for that then imo, don’t ride the horse. It’s just not worth it . If she pays and exams reveal no problems, I agree ground work/and or send to cowboy or a brave event rider .
Best of luck and look out for yourself first.
[QUOTE=DQintraining;8687921]
I am admittedly a bit angry while writing this post. Today, for the third time in a week, I was bucked off a horse I have been riding for a long time.
He is a 6 year old Dutch Warmblood gelding by Johnson, out of a Jet Set mare. He had 30 days put on him by a Western trainer as a 4 year old, and has been in consistent training with me since then. The gelding has never been easy, in fact he is one of the most difficult horses I’ve ridden. It has taken him a long time to mature, since he stands 18hh, and I find Johnson babies to be slow to grow up. He is characteristically a bit lazy, you must work to keep him in front of your leg. The trot is now quite lovely and forward.
The problem is, he has learned to buck people off in the canter. It mostly happens when he tries to fall out of the canter, and you don’t let him. Today, I asked him to continue cantering when he tried to break, and before I knew it I was on the ground. Earlier in the week, he bucked me off when I asked for a canter transition.
I really don’t think it is a physical problem. He is UTD on teeth, is sound, and does not appear to be sore anywhere. The saddle fits well.
I live in a small area, with very few trainers, let alone good ones. His owner believes that there is no one around here that could stay on any better than I can. His full sister has been deemed unsafe to ride, is it possible that maybe he is just too dangerous to bother with? Has anyone been through a similar situation?[/QUOTE]
Has this horse bucked in canter since you started working with him at 4? If not, then something has changed - figure out what (easier said than done!)
When you say “people” are there people other than yourself riding this horse? If so, why, and can you keep them off him, preferable for ever?
How quick is he? Does he give you a warning or just kaboom with no ears back, no sucking back, no tightening of his back?
I’m different than a lot of folks when it comes to dealing with this sort of crappy behaviour. If it IS crappy behaviour, and not something physical, I shut it down immediately. I’m too old to ride out bucks and I don’t see why we should anyway. Any other dangerous behaviour gets shut down immediately that the horse offers it. We don’t stand there with our arm in our horse’s mouth waiting for him to be done biting. We curtail it immediately. Why should bucking be any different? IMO (and it’s not necessarily a popular opinion 
) we shouldn’t.
If you are lucky and the horse gives you a warning shut it down with a one rein stop, a nose to your knee, whatever physical stop you can get in extremely quickly, and back it up with a verbal whoa that you have gone back to the longe and lead lines and re-installed so that it’s instant from all three gaits. INSTANT.
Once stopped, a verbal lecture followed by quietly moving forward again in an EASY gait with lots of praise will get the message across that trying to buck is a BAD thing, while moving forwards is a very GOOD thing.
When things are going well again at the easy gaits, ask once more for whatever it was that set off the bucking. If you get bucking or threat of bucking again, shut that bugger down again and go back to the previous work. Next day work on the trigger scenario on the longe line and attach very clear voice aids to the canter transition. A kissing sound is easy to do and very easily understood as canter and canter only. Spend time on the longe for as long as it takes to get that sound completely ingrained. Then, go back to riding and when the horse feels truly good in the easy gaits, ask for the canter with your voice. Leave you legs, seat, and hands out of the equation. If the horse gets a bit slow, VOICE! and voice only. If it works and he carries on in canter, ask for a whoa, give lots of praise and a loose rein walk.
If it doesn’t work, and he bucks or threatens to buck, emergency stop and go back to the easier work as described above. Then, sigh, back to the longe line to install the verbal cues better. I should also say, do not tolerate any bucking on the longe line either. First one gets a whip smack. A second buck gets a whoa and a rein back followed by work in the easy gait, followed by another attempt.
There is NO point in wearing a horse down by continuing to smack it, or spur it, or whatever while it continues to buck. You are not teaching it not to buck, you are teaching that when it bucks, you are an arsehole that beats it. Tell the horse not to buck, period.
Teach the horse that certain behaviours are bad and are not allowed, not that the horse is a bad horse. Correct bad behaviour in a quick way that is easily understood. Remember to reinforce good behaviour after a correction so that the horse gets it - good behaviour gets praise and candy, bad behaviour gets a stern talking to that immediately ends when the behaviour stops.
This all assumes that the horse is physically well, of course. Do remember that weak stifle ligaments can cause crappy canter behaviour where there was none before. EPSM/PSSM can cause this sort of behaviour, etc. Make sure you’ve delved into all the possibilities mentioned on this thread. It’s not as easy as the vet giving the horse a quick wellness check
If the horse is well, it’s going to take considerable time to alter the horse’s behaviour pattern. Take a LOT of time with it. Weeks, months, whatever, it’s not going away in one session. If the owner isn’t willing to give you that kind of time, walk away. It is not worth your ability to walk/breathe/go to the toilet by yourself to rush a problem like this.
Lastly, if the horse doesn’t give you any warning of an impending bucking session and you simply can’t get him stopped on the first buck, the horse is too dangerous and it’s time to say goodbye to him and sorry to the owner, but your ability to walk/breathe/go to the toilet by yourself is more important than trying to train a horse whose ingrained behaviour is too dangerous to re-shape.
One more thing … please hold while I put my HAZMAT suit on over my flame suit … I will absolutely ride horses like this in (GASP!!!) draw reins that run from the girth. The added leverage you get for that one rein stop is worth all the haters who will look at you sideways and throw trash in your direction when the horse is one that doesn’t give you warning and so you’re left trying to stop the horse before the second buck and not during or before the first buck. Like the Visa commercial says, “Priceless.” Please note, the draws can be as loose as possible during the easy work. Just make sure they’re short enough to be useful when you start the work where the problem shows up.
If you are going to try to continue working with this horse, I think it is fair to the horse to BE SURE it is not a pain issue. You did not state what you have done for sure but I think a full lameness eval by a good vet is in order; also a chiropractor visit. Horses can still be sore even though they don’t “appear sore”.
It’s very possible that this behavior is strictly behavioral, but I find it makes much more sense to 100% rule out pain before you send the horse to bootcamp, so to speak. I would pay particular attention to his spine and back, but certainly look at his entire body.
If you find a pain issue, of course you’ll have to work through that so the horse realizes that it isn’t going to hurt anymore (when the issue is fixed).
If you don’t find a pain issue, you have to outsmart him. I don’t necessarily expect to prevent a horse from bucking (go ahead and let them make a mistake; it’s how they learn) but I am going to be darn ready for it. Of course, there are some talented buckers out there.
What sort of riding do you normally do? In the arena? On the trail? If you only ride in the arena, he may be getting bored too. Some horses need lots of miles and lots of wet saddle blankets to “knock it off”. Sometimes the behavior is improved, simply by getting them out and getting them moving.
I would do what Sasha describes if there is no pain. My trainer was given a horse like this some years ago who is now toting a Junior around at the National level. Some of these horses just learn bad habits and can be tough as youngsters. Some have undiagnosed health problems.
Most unwanted behaviors are caused by pain or severe discomfort. Yes, the behavior can become a learned response to stressful stimuli (ie, bucking may be the horse’s go-to response now for saddle fit or lameness or other issues because it has associated the horse’s brain with relief of the stress), but it is definitely anthropomorphizing to see the behavior as “evil” or “mean,” and it’s negligent to not get to the root of the issue.
Large horses take a LOT more physical development, and are a ton weaker in early ages. This predisposes them to injury, skeletal, and joint issues. He probably won’t be physically mature until age 8 or 9 because of his size, so you can’t think of him as a true 6 year old in terms of physical development. Cowboy can mean a lot of things, but if you’re talking about a roundpen/NH starter, you should expect SI and hind end problems - it’s totally different for a 14h QH to lope around a circle than an 18h WB, and I have never seen the latter come out of a roundpen-style backing process without hind end issues. Problem is, most people are not very good at spotting hind end pain; they are trained to look for lameness and lameness alone.
About 6 months ago I was asked to look at a horse who was labelled a total jerk, and his young rider was getting flack from her instructor because the horse was bucking and half-rearing during canter work. They blamed her riding and said she needed to be more authoritative with him and not let him get away with his antics. They said the horse was a bad egg who needed remedial training and a few CTJ moments to be straightened out. The owners had a vet and a chiro look at him, and pronounce him “without pain,” so the riding instructor decided it was okay to go all out in showing the horse who was boss. The horse’s behavior reduced but it was not fixed and he still bucked. When I looked at the horse and ran my hands over him, I discovered a crooked pelvis that was so inflamed on one side he couldn’t hold his tail straight. His ribcage was out and the connective tissues strained, too. The poor guy was in so much pain that I was shocked he could canter at all. Fixed him up and in a few weeks of treatment the horse had no further issues. I don’t know how both the vet and chiro missed it, but not everyone looks for the same issues or can recognize what’s happening. I now advise folks to get 2nd, 3rd, or 4th opinions until they do find the source of the problem.
Anyway, that horse has been fine ever since - no need to tell him bucking was wrong; just needed to listen to what he was trying to say. This is just one story but honestly I could offer a hundred more of the same. Horses do try to “tell us” they have an issue in more subtle ways first, but these things mostly go unnoticed by most riders - think girthiness, not wanting to be caught in the pasture, not wanting to stand at the mounting block, flinching or dancing during grooming, etc, plus the tell-tale big one: not wanting to go forward under saddle. Most riders are just trained to see these symptoms as disobediences instead of communication.
Occasionally there are horses who do buck or refuse to go forward for different reasons, usually exuberance or confusion, respectively, but these are obvious, situational responses and not systemic problems. Many people inadvertently train their horses that they must go forward even if they are in pain and discomfort because the consequences of not moving (kicking, whipping, spurring) are more upsetting than the level of pain the horse is in, but these problems always come out the other end somewhere either in soundness issues or major disobediences down the road, so the source of the problem is never identified and people believe the horse just lacked a work ethic. To each his own.
In your situation, OP, I would push the owner to have vet, chiro, bodyworkers, etc look at this horse’s hind end carefully. Chief suspects would be SI issues (pelvis, sacrum), low back issues, rib cage problems, saddle fit, kissing spine, stifles, hocks, ulcers, and hind feet. Not necessarily in that order. I personally wouldn’t ride the horse until you have a diagnosis, because either the horse is in so much pain that he can’t be trusted, or he truly has a screw loose or mental trauma and therefore can’t be trusted. It takes a LOT of stress for a horse to dump someone 3 times like that and I don’t blame you for being frustrated, but that frustration is misplaced when it’s directed at the nature of the animal.
I have a friend who was bucked off of her young hanovarian three times. She did send him off to a western trainer - that was maybe two yrs ago and he hasn’t bucked her off since - but - she also got him regular chiro. work as the trainer said that his sacrum was off and she also bought a new saddle that was fitted for him. He was at the trainer for six months. He continues to get regular chiro and massage and most people think he is a wonderful bombproof horse. She shows him and has a great time with him. Hope this helps.
Mind if I ask where he’s being worked? Always in an arena? He’s young, and slow to mature. Might be that a change of scenery could help once all medical / physical is ruled out. Take him out in the field, hills, etc and work him - let him explore his world a bit and ask him for the working in a different setting, If it truly is a mind issue, it could help get him over the hump.
In my experience of being the rider on a lot of young horses this isn’t uncommon. It’s very common in young horses learning to jump, less common in dressage horses but dressage riders tend to come off more (due to the saddle mostly) and make a much bigger deal out of it. A LOT of young horses will start to buck at the canter at some point: riding out in company, when they learn to jump, first fox hunt, first gallop, first time a dog barks at them. And yes, if you fall off and they get a reward out of it (get to gallop as fast as they want, get to run home, get to tour the farm alone), they’ll keep doing it. Especially the athletic ones. If there’s a successful jumper out there that hasn’t bucked a few people off in their time I’d be surprised. I’ve definitely owned a couple who were perfectly nice horses who would try to buck you off if you say, went for a hack at feeding time, or rode in the rain. It’s easy for them and has worked in the past.
I’d say have the vet, massage therapist out, make sure the saddle fits ~at the canter~ ie it’s not sitting down on his withers or pinching at that gait but not at the walk or standing (which happens a lot). If it looks ok, I’d ride him in a nice flat jumping saddle with short stirrups and a bucking strap and possibly the draw reins in the big arena and go back to basics. Make sure if he gets you off he does not get to run around and have fun (so fenced area). Or have a jumper trainer ride him for a bit and do baby jumping stuff with him which can let his hind end build some strength without him having to do “dressage”.
Just curious–why do you think a flat jumping saddle would be better?
Assuming all the physical stuff is okay:
So first, find yourself the biggest hill you can muster. Bring the big boy out there and start doing hill work. He’s six, he’s not done maturing yet. Teach him how to really work.
Use the hill to encourage pushing from behind and stretching over the topline without having to push the issue. Give him the rein and don’t ask for anything except “go”. When he gets to the top his reward is to walk down in a training level frame. Keep thinking go, but ask him not to fall on his face. No real collection.
If he threatens to buck, circle, tight. He’ll have to work hard to keep himself from falling on his face.
He needs to understand that disobedience means working harder. If he wants to break, let him and then get him balanced and drive him forward into the canter. What youre doing is reinforcing “yes I mean canter” but it also tells him “I understand that you’re young and not strong enough”. And prevents the whole “stay in the canter” and then get bucked off.
I would also make friends with lateral work. And keep a lunge line and whip by the ring, if he gets you off make him MOVE. Make him regret his decision from the relative safety of the ground. And once he’s nice and tired, hop back on and go back to the canter work. If it takes 3 buck/dumps to learn that he gets a break, then it only takes 3 buck/dump/lunges to learn that it’s not a decision he wants to make.
My last pony used to “kick start” the canter and fall out of it, regularly. She only got better with strength.
But I would get really comfortable with “moments of correctness and lots of close to correct” with that horse. The very intelligent ones tend to try all of the “no thank you” options. If he gives you a buck-free canter, pat him and be done. If he breaks in the canter and then goes back to it and doesn’t buck, pat him and be done. If the canter work is hard, make it short and sweet and reward him. He won’t be ready to give you 200% until he’s in his teens. You can quickly make the horse rank if you don’t reward his every effort even if it’s not exactly what you want.
My bet is that you are asking for too much collection without having the impulsion and connection established, you already stated that you don’t have the straightness clearly established. Remember that collection is at the top of the pyramid, and it’s there for a reason. Impulsion is BEFORE connection, the horse needs to go forward in whatever frame it wants BEFORE you make contact with the mouth. He should go forward into the bridle, which he is not because he’s behind your leg. As long as he is behind your leg he can, and will, buck.
One question: Does he do this with the first canter you ask for? Or is it when he has been working awhile?
If it is the latter, when he “breaks” out of the canter, he may be trying to say he’s tired and can’t canter anymore. Then when you try and force him for more canter, the buck is basically him raising his voice, saying “I CAN’T!”
Just a thought.
[QUOTE=mayhew;8690112]
Just curious–why do you think a flat jumping saddle would be better?[/QUOTE]
I’m guessing to shorten the stirrups and get off his back and just work on going forward.
[QUOTE=mayhew;8690112]
Just curious–why do you think a flat jumping saddle would be better?[/QUOTE]
It’s a lot easier to ride out some bucking with shorter stirrups and a flat cantle, ime.
[QUOTE=digihorse;8688180]
First… horse do not “dump people to get out of work” They come up with behaviours to protect themselves from riders who do not read signals well.
At 6, and 18 hands he is not developed in his spine yet. His backbone, and the spine processes will not close until he is 8 years old. [/QUOTE]
Sorry but I’ve known plenty of tall, undeveloped 6 year olds that NEVER EVER bucked due to discomfort. Certainly not years after being started. I’ve also had plenty of young horses out of balance, confused and even a bit scared and they still haven’t bucked their riders off.
People should face up to the fact that some horses have a more “belligerent” response to doing things they don’t want to do - which is totally fair enough - just as with people all horses are different.
Doesn’t mean that they are bad but it also doesn’t mean that they are in pain either.
Bucking horse stock have a genetically built in buck. Just like jumping is a highly hereditary trait. So I also do not believe that horses only buck in discomfort.
There are well known Wb lines that have a tendency to be light on the front end. But at 18th, there is a possibility of an issue.
There’s a difference between an exuberant buck, an ignorant buck of a young horse, and deliberate "mean " bucking to unseat a rider. Granted, the deliberate bucking may be pain related and every effort should be made to eliminate possibility (every effort has not been made per OP description)
But after ruling out any issue, there are sound horses who are nasty, or at least nasty in a discipline that does not suit them. Even those bred for it can be temperamentally unsuited for. dressage and 18 h makes it worse. Might be worth it to see how he does in something else.
Thanks everyone, I have resorted to giving him some time off from riding him, and have been lunging him 4+ times a week. He does not have a problem going in side reins and cantering several circles at a time. I started light riding this week, and am lunging him beforehand. If he’s going to act like a 3 year old, I’ll treat him as one. He is perfectly fine to hack- he always got a lot of time on the trail, as he tends to get ring sour.
BUT- after looking him over several times, receiving another opinion, and changing the saddle, I still DO NOT think this is a pain issue. I will eventually work my way back up to cantering when his trot work is absolutely perfect and obedient. If he still bucks, I’m done, I’ll find someone to send him to.
