Horse Manure Divids a Community

[Miss-O]

Has anyone heard anything about this?

A township in my region is going after the local Amish population. They want to require all horsedrawn vehicles to be equiped with poop bags. They also want horses to wear rubber shoes citing that horse shoes are “rapidly damaging the roadways”. Their solicitor is quoted as explaining, “the horseshoes that are damaging the paved roads are ones with a metal piece welded to them that make them jagged.” They also want to require that horsedrawn vehicles be licensed.

http://www.muncyluminary.com/page/content.detail/id/571318/Horse-manure-divides-a-community.html?nav=5007

https://www.witf.org/news/2019/08/pa-township-puts-hold-on-proposal-to-require-horse-diapers-rubber-horseshoes-hoping-to-work-it-out-w.php

I recreationally drive my horse on backroads. Poop happens, but I understand the concern to motorcyclists. I’m having a harder time with the rubber shoes thing. In the past I have used borium welds to help the shoes hold up better. I never saw any damage to pavement or concrete. I’m not aware of any jagged metal shoes (geez you would think they would have hired a horse savy solicitor.) It’s been a while since I’ve been around the Amish. Are they using studs in their shoes? Does anyone know how much damage is being done to these roads?

I’m also unfamiliar with rubber shoes. Any idea how many miles they are good for? I would imagine they would wear down incredibly fast.

[cutter99]

I have lived the majority of my life in PA Amish country, plus worked with many Amish in the equine industry. Buggies, specifically the steel wheels, as well as shoes with borium, damage the roads. All the local government, in this situation, is asking for is registration of buggies, like motor vehicles. The money goes into funding road repairs.

Rubber shoes might help the roads, but they will not address the damage that occurs from the buggy wheels.

[trubandloki]

@Miss-O

In the past I have used borium welds to help the shoes hold up better. I never saw any damage to pavement or concrete. I’m not aware of any jagged metal shoes (geez you would think they would have hired a horse savy solicitor.) It’s been a while since I’ve been around the Amish. Are they using studs in their shoes? Does anyone know how much damage is being done to these roads?

I would guess they are talking about the borium chunks. I can see someone describing those as jagged metal chunks.

[clanter]

Ed Ulrich said he did not appreciate walking in manure to get his mail across the street.

well there is one citizen who needs to take a class in how to walk around stuff

I guess next will be an instructional class for law enforcement to determent is the poop domestic or wild

[CWNSF]

I went on a tour of Amish country (Lancaster, PA) and one of the first things I noticed was the wear on the pavement (on the shoulders) from the buggies and horses.

[Ajierene]

@clanter

well there is one citizen who needs to take a class in how to walk around stuff

I guess next will be an instructional class for law enforcement to determent is the poop domestic or wild

The manure dropped from horses pulling a buggy drops in a long line. I can see someone, especially someone with mobility issues, having trouble stepping over the pile and having to walk several feet in either direction to get around the pile.

Also, yes, buggies do tear up the roads. I agree, though, rubber shoes are only going to help so much as metal wheels cause as much damage. My horse lives with what she considers “roving gangs of Amish” (she’s getting better but she’s quite terrified of them despite living in the area her entire life), and even I find driving over the manure a bit annoying and definitely notice a difference in road quality.

[Toblersmom]

I lived in SE PA for several years while my husband was in his poultry residency at New Bolton. Theres’s a big difference in the amount of poop and road damage from the occasional recreational rider/driver, or what would be seen in the backroads of a community with a relatively low population of people who use horses as their primary local transport, as compared to what you see in areas with high populations of people who use horses as their primary transport, particularly at congregation areas in town. It’s pretty easy for the parking areas in those places to turn into a real morass, not just a pile or three you can step around. Personally, I wish there were laws saying that they could be cited for driving conspicuously, grossly lame (like Chicken Doctor hubby with zero horse experience could tell they were lame) horses at a trot on pavement. I lost a lot of warmth and sympathy for the Amish while I was living there, probably half or more of the regularly driven horses we saw were horribly lame, and most of the other half were also lame to a knowledgeable eye.

[mvp]

@clanter

well there is one citizen who needs to take a class in how to walk around stuff

I guess next will be an instructional class for law enforcement to determent is the poop domestic or wild

Wlllll. You can’t call someone stupid while misspelling stuff. Just saying.

[Bluey]

@mvp

Wlllll. You can’t call someone stupid while misspelling stuff. Just saying.

Consider autocorrect may have a hand there, just sayin’.

At times I have clicked post reply and as the window was fading I could see a word being changed.
Not happy with that, but it is what it is.

[clanter]

@mvp

Wlllll. You can’t call someone stupid while misspelling stuff. Just saying.

did I call any one stupid? just asking

[Rackonteur]

@Toblersmom

I lost a lot of warmth and sympathy for the Amish while I was living there, probably half or more of the regularly driven horses we saw were horribly lame, and most of the other half were also lame to a knowledgeable eye.

I’ve lost lot of warmth and sympathy for them too after hearing the stories of a friend of mine who drives them on shopping and other forays in the “English” world. They want to keep themselves “separate” from us but they also want to take full advantage of the “English” world – chiropractic, Walmart, trains – all of which presumably have electrically lit facilities, indoor toilets, and other modern conveniences. The Amish don’t want to take our world into their homes but they certainly seem to enjoy getting out into the world and taking full advantage of its amenities. Maybe they are living according to the Biblical precept to “be in the world but not of it” – but where do you draw the line between “in” and “of”?

[ReSomething]

The caulks that are on keg shoes here are mighty impressive, they are made with a half inch add on or a 90 degree bend in the stock, I have old horseshoes we dug up and I wonder what kind of effect that had on the horses, and I’ve seen the damage the metal treaded heavy equipment can do. The Amish have gradually loosened some restrictions and metal buggy wheels could be easily done as that kind of rubber carriage tire is already available, see the Budweiser beer wagon.

That being said it’s up to the community ro figure out how they will pay for repair to their roads and if the local user group is mostly horse drawn they may be trying to get their pound of flesh off of them. Some communities require licenses for bikes also, it’s not a big stretch.

Now the most damage that effects me as a car driver has always been potholes and broken edges or very high pavement edges, the kind you don’t want to get near because they pull you off the road. I don’t know if Amish buggies would be likely to contribute to that problem, and I am not sure about the poop bags either, I’ve seen those in urban areas like NYC, but if the custom is to curb ones dog, i.e have it poop in the street then I wonder why horse manure is so much more offensive. And that is what it is all about, someone taking offense at something we all are around all the time. Conversely at some barns it’s mandatory to get the manure picked up and out of the footing, sweeping out manure, leaving manure is discouraged. Gravel is the one thing I have seen take out motorcycle riders, I’d be interested to know how many are affected by horse manure.

Its hard to know how many factors are driving this and what the rationale is, and it most certainly does appear to be specifically focused at one group.

[Bluey]

@Rackonteur

I’ve lost lot of warmth and sympathy for them too after hearing the stories of a friend of mine who drives them on shopping and other forays in the “English” world. They want to keep themselves “separate” from us but they also want to take full advantage of the “English” world – chiropractic, Walmart, trains – all of which presumably have electrically lit facilities, indoor toilets, and other modern conveniences. The Amish don’t want to take our world into their homes but they certainly seem to enjoy getting out into the world and taking full advantage of its amenities. Maybe they are living according to the Biblical precept to “be in the world but not of it” – but where do you draw the line between “in” and “of”?

That is people for you, mercenary all.

We may profess this or that, follow some more restrictive ideologies, but in the end, we won’t give our own comfort/advantage/wishes up, but convince ourselves we are pure, when we obviously are not, or can’t be, is unreasonable to do so.
I expect Amish are like the rest of us, guided by convenience where necessary.

Those pesky ethical eggs we just have to break to have our omelettes.
Some times, there is no way around that.

Carriage horses in cities are restricted to places they can travel and park and that they wear horse diapers and are cleaned after.
Maybe some such regulations could help with the manure problem?

Wear and tear of highways and parking lots?
Do Amish pay taxes?
If so, that should be their taxes at work.
They too can use the roads and expect them to be fixed out of those taxes.
If you ever travel thru an industrial zone with much truck traffic, you can see how maintaining those roads takes considerably more resources than in a suburban area.
Is the nature of some that travel highways that they are harder on them.

[demidq]

We live in an area of Ontario that has a pretty large community of Old Order Mennonites (minimal differences to Amish). The roads that are paved have an extra wide gravel verge for horse drawn vehicles which is better for the horses and safer for the buggies as they are not on the highway/paved road proper. I don’t think the municipalities and county grade them more often than in other areas.

[Palm_Beach]

@Miss-O

Has anyone heard anything about this?

A township in my region is going after the local Amish population. They want to require all horsedrawn vehicles to be equiped with poop bags. They also want horses to wear rubber shoes citing that horse shoes are “rapidly damaging the roadways”. Their solicitor is quoted as explaining, “the horseshoes that are damaging the paved roads are ones with a metal piece welded to them that make them jagged.” They also want to require that horsedrawn vehicles be licensed.

http://www.muncyluminary.com/page/content.detail/id/571318/Horse-manure-divides-a-community.html?nav=5007

https://www.witf.org/news/2019/08/pa-township-puts-hold-on-proposal-to-require-horse-diapers-rubber-horseshoes-hoping-to-work-it-out-w.php

I recreationally drive my horse on backroads. Poop happens, but I understand the concern to motorcyclists. I’m having a harder time with the rubber shoes thing. In the past I have used borium welds to help the shoes hold up better. I never saw any damage to pavement or concrete. I’m not aware of any jagged metal shoes (geez you would think they would have hired a horse savy solicitor.) It’s been a while since I’ve been around the Amish. Are they using studs in their shoes? Does anyone know how much damage is being done to these roads?

I’m also unfamiliar with rubber shoes. Any idea how many miles they are good for? I would imagine they would wear down incredibly fast.

If you are in NY, it would be more likely that weather and deicing roads is the biggest source of decay. This is the first I’ve heard of motorcyclists having issues, although it’s understandable. I think the towns have grown up around the Amish more than the Amish moved close in to towns, what are they to do? And you have to look at the merits of the issue, not whether or not you agree with how some Amish you personally know are treating their animals.

[PeteyPie]

@clanter

well there is one citizen who needs to take a class in how to walk around stuff

Thank you for nothing, clanter. I just snorted coffee all over my nightie.

To add: that sounded churlish. I should say, “thank you for something” because it’s nice to start the day with a little levity.

[Toblersmom]

@Bluey

That is people for you, mercenary all.

We may profess this or that, follow some more restrictive ideologies, but in the end, we won’t give our own comfort/advantage/wishes up, but convince ourselves we are pure, when we obviously are not, or can’t be, is unreasonable to do so.
I expect Amish are like the rest of us, guided by convenience where necessary.

Those pesky ethical eggs we just have to break to have our omelettes.
Some times, there is no way around that.

Carriage horses in cities are restricted to places they can travel and park and that they wear horse diapers and are cleaned after.
Maybe some such regulations could help with the manure problem?

Wear and tear of highways and parking lots?
Do Amish pay taxes?
If so, that should be their taxes at work.
They too can use the roads and expect them to be fixed out of those taxes.
If you ever travel thru an industrial zone with much truck traffic, you can see how maintaining those roads takes considerably more resources than in a suburban area.
Is the nature of some that travel highways that they are harder on them.

The “diaper” thing seems to be one of the things being proposed and seems entirely reasonable to me. They don’t interfere with the mechanics of the horse and buggy, and they can’t be any more expensive than an emissions test on a car.

Regarding the taxes, Amish do pay income taxes. They don’t, by and large, pay the other taxes and fees levied on vehicle operators through car registration, driver’s licenses and car gasoline/diesel tax, much less the additional taxes and fees levied on commercial truck operators, cab drivers, etc. Car operators also have to abide by regulations meant to decrease road damage, generally speaking. You can’t drive your sedan with chains on the tires in most roadways in PA, for instance, you have to have rubber tires.

I lost another glob of patience and sympathy with the Amish when there was a movement in PA to set the minimum dairy bulk tank temperature higher for Amish farmers as opposed to “English” farmers, because they had a harder time getting the milk chilled using propane or whatever it was that they were using that wasn’t centrally provided electricity. Sorry, it’s a public health issue and the bacteria that would love to grow in the milk don’t give even half a rip what your religious tenants are.

[cutter99]

For those of you who do not understand the damage that is caused by buggy wheels and shoes, take a look at this picture. You can see the difference in the road by the difference in the color of the road. The dark area in the middle of each lane is where the buggy wheels usually do not roll. The light areas are where they do. If you look at the road in the upper right hand area of the photo, you can see at the horizon line where the road is wearing in the light grey area.

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/an-amish-buggy-enters-the-covered-bridge-on-a-road-near-news-photo/131140510

If you have ever lived in a high buggy traffic area, you quickly realize the roads become severely grooved from the buggy wheels.

[clanter]

from OP’s first link

Penalties shall range from $50 to $1,000 per offense, enforceable by the Constable, supervisors and all citizens 18 years of age or older.

sounds good until you read one of the threads posted on this board about neighbors feuding between themselves over who knows what

It appears to me if this were enacted the accused would be at the disadvantage as they would or could be continually faced with allegations to point of frustration by a neighbor or developer who is eyeing their property

The recourse my guess once this is enacted it might make the Amish a voting block who until now has remained silent with less than 10% voting.

[Guilherme]

@cutter99

For those of you who do not understand the damage that is caused by buggy wheels and shoes, take a look at this picture. You can see the difference in the road by the difference in the color of the road. The dark area in the middle of each lane is where the buggy wheels usually do not roll. The light areas are where they do. If you look at the road in the upper right hand area of the photo, you can see at the horizon line where the road is wearing in the light grey area.

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/an-amish-buggy-enters-the-covered-bridge-on-a-road-near-news-photo/131140510

If you have ever lived in a high buggy traffic area, you quickly realize the roads become severely grooved from the buggy wheels.

Interesting, but how old is that road?

G.