Horse moves like she has a stick up her butt?

[greywithchrome]

Last November my horse started moving like she had a stick up her butt - extremely stiff in the hind end, tail lifted dramatically. Did mesotherapy, didnt do much, back injections two months later plus a round of Robaxin. Ended up going for kissing spine surgery in May (this decision was made after years of chasing issues with this pony). Did a ton of work with her this summer trying to strengthen her back and get her stretching and working properly and she seemed to be comfortable and moving well. Got back on her in September and had been riding her once a week since but she was exactly the same as she always had been under saddle (tail swishing, ears pinned, biting the air). I thought … maybe pain memory? And then, like clockwork, she started the stick up the butt movement again in November. Now I am wondering if she has an old injury that flares up in the cold. What would this movement suggest to you? Hocks xray clean, right stifle has a touch of arthritis and tissue damage. When standing square her pelvis drops a bit to the right. Bodyworker noted right SI and lumbar are reactive.

Video is from last year but she looks exactly the same this year. Time stamped 1:05 is her “winter” movement, the video after was the spring prior.

nelly update

Lunging after surgery:

Nelly - Summer 2022

It’s probably time to just retire her but she gets too fat! And she is only 12.

[TWH_Girl]

It does look like a hock and/or stifle issue. Xraying clean doesn’t mean something isn’t going on. If the R stifle is showing some arthritis on Xray then there is probably quite a bit going on there. You could block each of the areas and see what her response is, then treat accordingly. My 20 yr old is same and from Nov- March is stiffer and takes a long warm up period. It’s been that way since he was about 12. He has hock and stifle issue. I have used Noltrex in stifles but this time I may try Arthramid. Hocks get normal steroids. I keep him on Equioxx as well. He’s 20 and has good days and bad. We just do what we can.

How old is your mare?

[AAHunterGal]

If you’ve been dealing with other issues for years and have recently started dealing with this as well (Which is what it sounds like from the kissing spine surgery comment?) I would uplevel the diagnostics. I would take her in for a bone scan and see what lights up. That will at least tell you where to zero in on / what might be going on other than what Xrays can show.

[Lunabear1988]

My understanding is Kissing Spines is almost always accompanied by other things. Like hind feet issues, suspensaries and stuff like that.

[jvanrens]

Has she been tested for PSSM? PSSM horses don’t always tolerate cold well.

[greywithchrome]

@TWH_Girl

It does look like a hock and/or stifle issue. Xraying clean doesn’t mean something isn’t going on. If the R stifle is showing some arthritis on Xray then there is probably quite a bit going on there.

Thank you for your input this is interesting! Her stifle has been xrayed and ultrasounded and my vet said there’s almost for sure an old injury there but I wasn’t sure it would be enough to cause her to move like this. Her stifles can be sticky too. She’s had stifle injections before but it was in the summer. She is coming 13 in the Spring.

@AAHunterGal

I would take her in for a bone scan and see what lights up.

I’ve considered this but she’s a PITA to trailer and I don’t think I’d get my money’s worth considering I’ve already xrayed/ultrasounded half her body lol. I’ll keep it in mind.

@Lunabear1988

My understanding is Kissing Spines is almost always accompanied by other things

Yes, same, and I totally agree with it. This horse has terrible posture which I think is what “caused” the kissing spines, but what “caused” the bad posture? I am not sure. I’ll admit I was hoping for a miracle because I have seen really amazing stories online.

@jvanrens

Has she been tested for PSSM? PSSM horses don’t always tolerate cold well.

Negative for PSSM1, not tested for PSSM2 because it’s difficult to do from Canada but I’d argue her diet is already pretty aligned with that of PSSM2 horses because I think she is IR/EMS. I would just have to add more protein.

[wsmoak]

@greywithchrome

This horse has terrible posture which I think is what “caused” the kissing spines, but what “caused” the bad posture? I am not sure.

Amy Skinner has been writing about posture recently, maybe some of her articles and videos will have something useful for you.

https://www.facebook.com/AmySkinnerHorsemanship is where I’ve been seeing it on FB.

She also has a blog for longer form stuff and/or sign up for her email list. https://amyskinnerhorsemanship.com/

[IPEsq]

Back (including SI) problems don’t like cold. And there is some correlation with abnormal tail posture and back problems. I would not be surprised if she has problems in the lumbo-sacral area even if her KS was far away from there.

[RunAmuckDog]

I’m going to agree with others & say it’s something higher, I.e. lumbosacral region, too.

What I see/stood out to me:

In the second video, she seems to have moments of excess movement just above/a bit behind her point of hip. Not the normal slightly swaying, forward motion. Rather, she has stiff legs with wide-ish side to side movement originating from that point. At times, she picks up her hip a bit more vertically than “necessary” for forward movement.

The excess movement could possibly explain the tight tail. Further diagnostics would be needed to determine if the SI joint is the originating issue OR if it’s actually over compensating for another issue. There is definitely a chain (maybe web would be more accurate?) of body components compensating for each other; I wish you luck in finding their connections.

To add the usual: not a professional/please take with a grain of salt.

[greywithchrome]

@wsmoak

Amy Skinner has been writing about posture recently, maybe some of her articles and videos will have something useful for you.

Thanks! I will check it out.

@IPEsq

Back (including SI) problems don’t like cold.

SI is what I was thinking. I am starting to wonder if she has an old SI/pelvic injury that ended up causing the KS, but so tough to diagnose.

@RunAmuckDog

Rather, she has stiff legs with wide-ish side to side movement originating from that point. At times, she picks up her hip a bit more vertically than “necessary” for forward movement.

This is exactly right, she kind of swings her hips instead of picking up her leg properly. I was thinking SI is the problem but was kind of hoping it wasn’t lol SI issues are so complex And this horse has had so many diagnostics/treatments done that did absolutely nothing. I guess we will see! Thanks for your input.

[IPEsq]

Coincidentally, after I responded to this thread, a Facebook memory popped up with my horse I’d posted about a lot on here with his various problems. He was in the middle of a restart under saddle, on Prednisolone. We’d done a gazillion things for him. Bone scan suggested a thoracic problem—there was some remodeling but no KS. We knew he had neck issues that we thought were under control. All the diagnostics possible for SI. Treating the SI did help some. We checked lower legs, hoof angles. Did not understand the extent of his SI and spinal problems until necropsy unfortunately.

In any event. During this restart period in particular where we were trying to undo some behavioral baggage that had built up. His gait and tail looked very similar. He had a very “expressive” hind end and a lot of back movement even in trot. Stiff tail like this especially during this time. Video was not mine so I can’t post it but I’ll try to find a similar example.

[IPEsq]

IMG_0166

[greywithchrome]

@IPEsq

His gait and tail looked very similar. He had a very “expressive” hind end and a lot of back movement even in trot. Stiff tail like this especially during this time.

Wow! Looks very similar. So you never really got him sound? And it ended up being SI/spine issues? My mare is never as content under saddle as the horse in the video. Through the summer shes pretty comfortable and happy doing stuff on the lunge and hand walking trails, etc, but in the winter she holds her hind end in that way even just walking to turnout and such.

[beowulf]

What a cute mare. My experience is tail posture and hock action like that are almost always SI related. My gelding with KS also holds his tail that way when he’s symptomatic. While his KS is directly under the saddle, his pain manifests further down his spine — mostly the left side of his SI.

When you did the surgery, did you change any of her management? My understanding is the surgery is just a starting point, not a “reset button”. Ideally, a full time turnout regime and fixing the feet is a good start.

I’ve dealt with KS enough now that there are some things I always consider when looking at a horse that has KS: how are her feet? Does she flex at all in either hock, and, how are her suspensories? Is the tail more dramatic under saddle? Have you looked at her SI? How does she stand at rest?

The SI would be my starting point. You may need to inject that area as well. The SI is not an area that tolerates even the smallest degree of inflammation well and they can take a long time to heal from any strains or micro injuries in that area.

Also… does the ground freeze in your area? It may be overall body soreness that starts from the feet, especially if your horse is barefoot or even barefoot behind.

[greywithchrome]

@beowulf

What a cute mare. My experience is tail posture and hock action like that are almost always SI related. My gelding with KS also holds his tail that way when he’s symptomatic. While his KS is directly under the saddle, his pain manifests further down his spine — mostly the left side of his SI.

When you did the surgery, did you change any of her management? My understanding is the surgery is just a starting point, not a “reset button”. Ideally, a full time turnout regime and fixing the feet is a good start.

I’ve dealt with KS enough now that there are some things I always consider when looking at a horse that has KS: how are her feet? Does she flex at all in either hock, and, how are her suspensories? Is the tail more dramatic under saddle? Have you looked at her SI? How does she stand at rest?

Thank you lol she is very cute, and used to be quite fun to ride! Her KS was also under the saddle and this ongoing potentially SI soreness seems to be mostly down the right side. Right after her surgery she stayed in for a month doing half day turnout and then moved to living outside (for the first time ever). She loves it outside. I also did a ton of work with her post surgery to help strengthen her back. She has always had fantastic feet thankfully, I’ve never had them xrayed to check angles but every farrier has always said good things. One vet suggested hind shoes to support her back but I would rather not go there. She flexes fine, her hocks are “PPE clean” on xray as per the vet, I’ve never checked suspensories but I’d be surpised if she had any lower limb issues. She often rests a back leg in crossties but she does have bad stifles so that was my thought as to why she does that … she has had them injected before it didn’t do much.

The SI is something I’ve never xrayed or ultrasounded and I think it is my next step especially after this thread. I said I’d give up if the surgery didn’t do the trick but it’s tough! I want her to be comfortable. And if what she needs is an annual injection then that would be great. And yes I am in Ontario so the ground is pretty hard and cold all winter. I figured the cold was what made her symptomatic like this but it didn’t occur to me that it could be because of the feet, that’s interesting!

[beowulf]

I believe when I injected SI it ran about $300. What was amazing to me was the damage on film even a layperson like me could see. The SI injection was night and day for this horse.

Some barefoot horses really don’t tolerate the frozen ground well. It’s hard on their feet and the protective posturing is hard on their bodies. Making them sore all over and a difficult knot to untie in figuring out what the root of all this discomfort is.

[greywithchrome]

@beowulf

I believe when I injected SI it ran about $300. What was amazing to me was the damage on film even a layperson like me could see. The SI injection was night and day for this horse.

That’s great, $300 would be nothing in the grand scheme of it all lol. I think it might be something that’s worth it as a “one last try” for this horse. It’s awesome to hear it was such a positive change! I’m going to pitch it to my vet and see what she says.

And yea makes total sense about the barefoot horses, especially now that she’s out 24/7 and doesn’t get the same relief from the cold.

[IPEsq]

@greywithchrome

@IPEsq

His gait and tail looked very similar. He had a very “expressive” hind end and a lot of back movement even in trot. Stiff tail like this especially during this time.

Wow! Looks very similar. So you never really got him sound? And it ended up being SI/spine issues? My mare is never as content under saddle as the horse in the video. Through the summer shes pretty comfortable and happy doing stuff on the lunge and hand walking trails, etc, but in the winter she holds her hind end in that way even just walking to turnout and such.

He got going well enough after this point that I had a trainer dabble in some lower level dressage shows and he did well. Then his front feet started to have major problems. He’d already had and recovered from one soft tissue injury in the front. He had neck issues and SI issues. He died from bad colic. Necropsy looked at his spine and SI and the sports med vet dissected the front feet. We’d done so many diagnostics and treatments to try to keep him comfortable. He was a very sweet horse full of personality but did not do well without a job but he never really liked to work, and it only got worse as his body got worse. I did learn a lot about ground work and some liberty and such with him. Taught me a lot about rehabbing and also listening to the NQR horse. Also really did a number on my confidence riding unfortunately.

[IPEsq]

It’s now more like $600 a pop for steroid injections in the SI, at least in my area, and my horse got them every 6 months. Initially he had a bucking problem in the canter, and injections fixed that. He’d need injections when his changes were no longer perfect. Usually did the neck at the same time. But I think those things were just hot spots in a whole lot of bad things. The necropsy showed he had chronic instability in the SIs. The articular surface was trashed. None of the diagnostics we could do alive picked up on anything other than pain in the area. He was 9 years old.

[greywithchrome]

@IPEsq

He was a very sweet horse full of personality but did not do well without a job but he never really liked to work, and it only got worse as his body got worse.

My horse is like this. That’s why I’ve always been so certain her behaviour under saddle is pain related because otherwise she is such a work horse. We do a ton of fun groundwork but she has the tendency to get overweight so it’s kind of dangerous for me to let her sit around.

If every 6 months injections made her more comfortable and even “hackable” I’d be pretty happy. Your video makes me pretty certain that what she is demonstrating is SI pain so at least gives me an idea on something to look into. It’s frustrating because I don’t even think just leaving her in a field would make her feel better.

Thanks so much for sharing!