Horse not gaining weight, and muscling as he should be.

[RyanAtlas]

Just for everyone’s knowledge a vet is involved. Full disclosure too, I’m giving a rough background of his situation, I apologize in advance for the long post. PLEASE READ THOUGH! I am unsure of what to do. I have an OTTB who I bought two years ago. He was unfit then but after roughly 6 months of training and a correct diet he put on a significant amount of muscle and weight. He looked amazing, super healthy coat and everyone always commented on his muscle tone and the vast improvement.

Jump forward a few months he was diagnosed with ulcers. After two months of treatment on Gastrogaurd, and moving him from SE Georgia to Atlanta due to better barn conditions he lost his weight and muscle tone rapidly. He was fed food that was a minimalist diet due to high sugars in feed. He did have endless access though to high quality Alfalfa and grass. After being cleared to go back to work and was back to his comfortable self he began training. Not hard, not too quickly, but just slowly back to work.

Now jumping forward almost four months we began training more, but nothing that exceeds his capabilities. I am in college so he is half leased out by two riders who are walk, trot, canter, and cross rails (keep in mind this is an incredibly athletic horse) So when I come up we work hard, but thats really it. My trainer does training rides on him once a week, and that is his life. It’s incredibly easy!

My biggest woe with him is that he looks healthy, shinny coat, dapples, and isn’t underweight BUT still to me looks like s***. Excuse my language, I’m frustrated. He is on Seminole and we are giving him the max amount before pushing him into Colicing, he is also getting Ultimate Finish, just to help with fattening him up. Now he has gained some muscle and at least 50lbs of weight, but still is not what he should be for 4 months of really working him and on proper grass/ hay. His top-line won’t develop and his chest/ butt muscles won’t either. We tried Vitamin E for two months but it didn’t help. He looks like we just pulled him from the track.

My vet wants to muscle biopsy him, do blood, and potential a lameness test. I want to know if anyone has had any experience with this? Do you find the results are easily fixed? Can the horse be a performance horse? I want him to be my show horse. Is it worth the money? Is there medicine that can help? Costly? Anything I may need to know for his future. I love him dearly and only want what is best for him, as well as my show career. He will always have a home with me, but I want to know what to expect or anyones experiences with this.

[Scribbler]

We really need to see a photo.

One person’s bag of bones is another person’s racing fit. One person’s healthy shiny is another person’s morbidly obese founder risk.

Are you familiar with the Henneke weight scale?

The other part of the equation is that only correct riding and schooling will build up the neck and abs and topline. If the horse is being ridden upside down, not using himself, or the saddle doesn’t fit, he will never properly develop.

I would also run an analysis of his feed and make sure there is no need obvious gap in nutrients or mineral ratios.

[MissAriel]

Along with Scribbler’s points -

Are the two part-lessors riding with the trainer? How many days/hours each week is he being ridden? The horse is getting ridden by 4 different people each week. Even if they are riding with the trainer, it is really tough for 4 people to give consistent quality work to a horse.

I would definitely look into exactly WHAT you are feeding in terms of nutrition - sugars, fats, fiber, protein, minerals and vitamins. You will probably need to estimate how much hay and forage he is actually consuming. It may be something as simple as adding more protein or balancing mineral ratios.

Also, since it is summertime and flys and other pests are awful - is he burning a lot of calories swatting, stamping and shaking off flies?

[Palm_Beach]

He is on Seminole what? The have dozens of products. No one can make a meaningful suggestion until you post the products he is consuming and the amounts. I’m assuming you don’t know how much alfalfa and grass he eats.

[findeight]

Can you figure out exactly how much work this horse is getting? Personally, Id cut the number of lease riders in half until he regains full condition, at least. Preferably forever. That’s too many riders and it is possible to burn more calories then he’s taking in if everybody is cantering and jumping even low jumps every time they ride. How many hours how many days a week is somebody messing with him?

It’s the old when you hear hoofbeafs look for a horse not a zebra thing. Might just be too much for him in general both mentally and physically with two riders sharing ride time then you come out and work him hard. They get dull from being bored by over drilling too, how much round and round and round the ring is he doing every week?

Start with reducing the rider count and workload , not with 2k plus in diagnostics and no visible symptoms in a horse getting many hours of work weekly… Back off. See what happens.

Oh and is he turned out on top of the three riders sharing his time? They can run off a lot of calories and condition playing around in the field and whatever is left of the grass this close to fall isn’t going to replace many of the calories he’s burning off.

[SonnysMom]

It has taken a long time for my OTTB to really fill out. You don’t say how old your horse is. Has he grown at all during the time you have had him? My guy grew 2.5 inches in his 5 year old year. That kept him pretty lean looking as he put a lot of his calories into growing.
He has been ridden correctly and consistently since late February and he is finally really getting filled out with a nice topline and no hint of ribs. (Prior to February we had some lameness issues and lots of lost shoes due to the mud). He is finally figuring out how to use himself so that has really helped his topline and overall muscle. He plays hard in turn-out so burns calories there. He also needs a fly sheet or gets bothered by the greenhead flies.

I would give it a bit more time before doing a muscle biopsy.

A picture really would help to visualize where he really is at.

Having actual feed names and weights will help help those more knowledge about feed too. Yes weights not scoops or number of flakes. Scoop sizes and bale sizes vary so much feed amounts given that way are pretty much useless.

[hoopoe]

first thing that struck me, as well, is four different riders. Sounds like a lot of work load.

Adding probiotics can increase digestive efficiency in horses.

I feel, as well, that most show horses are made overweight If that is your image standard you may wish to reconsider.

Proper muscle development over time comes from correct work, not calories. That can take several years

[bt1]

Too many riders/too much quantity of work not enough quality of work. And ulcers are back.

[findeight]

Oh, missed the trainer riding weekly to, so four riders. So how many times a week is he ridden twice a day? Have you ever known younger, non owners with access to a decent horse to just ride 20 minutes then put it back because it’s working at least once a day every day and they would rather cut their ride time short then risk pounding the horse? I never met any of those, only the ones that were there fooling with the horse until they turned out the lights.

Have met trainers who think more about their bottom then overworking a horse, this one has a gold mine going between putting pro rides on the horse then teaching lessons with him for 3 different riders.

Even TBs wear out. Doubt he’s happy and that might be what you are seeing. That kind of schedule would give anything ulcers.

[dungrulla]

You treated him for ulcers then moved him–moving is incredibly stressful, Might he have ulcers again? I just went through this with mine and he’s JUST starting to look OK again now that he’s back on ulcergard.

[Logicallyy]

Honestly, Thoroughbreds are tricky. The one thing I always, always do with all my thoroughbreds is treat them as though they are ulcer prone. Start using UlcerGuard a day or two before hauling, keep using it until a day or two after hauling or more if horse is clearly still stressed. Keep a diet low in NSC and ensure he’s getting enough digestible energy to keep him through the day. My personal favorite to feed is beet pulp, being that it’s high in fiber- meaning good for ulcer prone horses- and unless you’re really trying, is hard to overfeed. Feeding a pound of alfalfa a day is all you really need to help prevent ulcers, and minimizing the time between feedings as well. Ideally, you want three feeding per day, and typically you want your horse to have access to hay for as long as possible. I always use a hay net or slow feeder for my horses that tend to devour their food too quickly. I recommend feeding him Purina Strategy, one of my off the tracks has trouble keeping his weight and has encountered trouble muscling well. After a while on this, I’ve seen a definite improvement. Although ideally, you would want a horse on far less grain. Beet pulp is considered roughage due to the high fiber, so if you feed this with Strategy your horse should be fine. If you decide to add more supplements and such, make sure to not be feeding him too much grain, and to ensure you don’t over-supplement any vitamins or minerals. Other than feed, there’s not much I can help with considering my current knowledge. I wish you and your horse the best of luck, and hope you don’t have to go through any expensive treatments and such.

[RyanAtlas]

So to clarify only three riders ride him three days a week. The other four he has a easy carefree life to send with his buddies. One young girl takes a lesson once a week just walk trot for maybe 30-45 mins, then another older woman in her 50s comes out once a week and does, walk, trot canter, then my trainer rides him thoroughly once a week and that is all. I visit him maybe once a month and ride him hard for two days in a row. When I said he has an easy life I meant it. Also he is ten years old.

We have now switched his food to Purina Outlast to help his guy health, vet recommended. he has constant access to alfalfa hay and grass for roughly 12-14 hours a day. Blood work is being done now and going from there!

As for the Ulcers, he is on preventatives from Smartpak and Alfalfa is the biggest preventative.

I think maybe two people who commented really answered my questions. So Thank you to those who did and have shared experiences. He is in top care under a very qualified trainer/ barn owner who is ensuring he is cared for properly. He is not being over worked under any circumstances. I am VERY particular about this horse and would never allow just anyone to ensure his care while I am not there. He is too important to me. Often just sitting for thoroughbreds can do more harm than good.

[Palm_Beach]

Does he have any access to grass or hay the other 10-12 hours a day?

[sdlbredfan]

@Logicallyy

Honestly, Thoroughbreds are tricky. The one thing I always, always do with all my thoroughbreds is treat them as though they are ulcer prone. Start using UlcerGuard a day or two before hauling, keep using it until a day or two after hauling or more if horse is clearly still stressed. Keep a diet low in NSC and ensure he’s getting enough digestible energy to keep him through the day. My personal favorite to feed is beet pulp, being that it’s high in fiber- meaning good for ulcer prone horses- and unless you’re really trying, is hard to overfeed. Feeding a pound of alfalfa a day is all you really need to help prevent ulcers, and minimizing the time between feedings as well. Ideally, you want three feeding per day, and typically you want your horse to have access to hay for as long as possible. I always use a hay net or slow feeder for my horses that tend to devour their food too quickly. I recommend feeding him Purina Strategy, one of my off the tracks has trouble keeping his weight and has encountered trouble muscling well. After a while on this, I’ve seen a definite improvement. Although ideally, you would want a horse on far less grain. Beet pulp is considered roughage due to the high fiber, so if you feed this with Strategy your horse should be fine. If you decide to add more supplements and such, make sure to not be feeding him too much grain, and to ensure you don’t over-supplement any vitamins or minerals. Other than feed, there’s not much I can help with considering my current knowledge. I wish you and your horse the best of luck, and hope you don’t have to go through any expensive treatments and such.

FYI, you wisely mentioned low NSC, then later mentioned Strategy. Did you realize that Purina now provides the starch and sugar data on that feed? Strategy starch + sugar = 25, so is NOT a low NSC feed.

[sdlbredfan]

@RyanAtlas

So to clarify only three riders ride him three days a week. The other four he has a easy carefree life to send with his buddies. One young girl takes a lesson once a week just walk trot for maybe 30-45 mins, then another older woman in her 50s comes out once a week and does, walk, trot canter, then my trainer rides him thoroughly once a week and that is all. I visit him maybe once a month and ride him hard for two days in a row. When I said he has an easy life I meant it. Also he is ten years old.

We have now switched his food to Purina Outlast to help his guy health, vet recommended. he has constant access to alfalfa hay and grass for roughly 12-14 hours a day. Blood work is being done now and going from there!

As for the Ulcers, he is on preventatives from Smartpak and Alfalfa is the biggest preventative.

I think maybe two people who commented really answered my questions. So Thank you to those who did and have shared experiences. He is in top care under a very qualified trainer/ barn owner who is ensuring he is cared for properly. He is not being over worked under any circumstances. I am VERY particular about this horse and would never allow just anyone to ensure his care while I am not there. He is too important to me. Often just sitting for thoroughbreds can do more harm than good.

I have not seen that you are providing the necessary amount of detail, even yet. So, complaining that ‘maybe 2’ people provided helpful responses means that you still have not provided enough data. Good luck, and be assured you are likely to receive more detailed responses when you have provided detail such as how many pounds of grain, how many pounds of hay, etc. are being fed. If you have not already looked into this, you might want to try either Purina Ultium gastric care, which contains the outlast supplement, or one of the Triple Crown feeds.

[MissAriel]

Thank you for clarifying the work schedule. That doesn’t sound like a particularly taxing schedule, although it also doesn’t sound like enough consistently correct work to build muscle on the topline. Since you say in your first post he is in good weight and shiny, but has no topline, he might need some directed exercise to help there. You might also want to have saddle fit checked. Poorly fitting saddles have contributed to horses working their back incorrectly.

As far as overall weight gain, without giving us the amounts (weights) of the various feeds, it will be hard for anyone on the board to give you advice. Right now it sounds like he gets grass and alfalfa for 12-14h a day and none the remainder of the day. He also gets some Smartpak supplements for gut health and Purina Outlast, which is also a supplement, not a feed. Is he still getting Seminole (which one, how much in lbs?) and Ultimate Finish (again, how much).

As far as answering your questions, folks here are trying to help and they are asking followup questions so they can give you better answers. There are a lot of knowledgeable horse people here who will tell you for weight and topline issues the first step is ALWAYS to look at the balance of feed and work load.

"My vet wants to muscle biopsy him, do blood, and potential a lameness test. I want to know if anyone has had any experience with this?
Many have, but normally with more clinical signs than just poor topline, and definitely these diagnostics would not be pursued until feeding has been addressed.

Do you find the results are easily fixed?
That all depends on the results. If the blood results show a imbalance of minerals - that can potentially be easily addressed in the diet. If the muscle biopsy shows a metabolic issue, that can be quite a bit more difficult. And if it is lameness issues, you could be almost anywhere from easy to impossible to resolve.

Can the horse be a performance horse? I want him to be my show horse.
None of us have a crystal ball. Your trainer is in a better position to assess his potential than internet strangers.

Is it worth the money?
Only you can answer that. Everyone has different budgets and attitudes about money

Is there medicine that can help? Costly?
See above on test results

Anything I may need to know for his future. I love him dearly and only want what is best for him, as well as my show career. He will always have a home with me, but I want to know what to expect or anyones experiences with this.
Take a deep breath. Doing what is best for him means you have to be his advocate and not get emotional during the process, which may be long and frustrating - even more so because you are away at school. As you can, provide us with the additional information so we can try to help you more. Right now there are too many unknowns, and most people won’t be able to give you good advice. We do understand your worry and frustration- many of us have been in similar situations. We will do our best to help.

[Logicallyy]

@sdlbredfan

FYI, you wisely mentioned low NSC, then later mentioned Strategy. Did you realize that Purina now provides the starch and sugar data on that feed? Strategy starch + sugar = 25, so is NOT a low NSC feed.

Ah, no I hadn’t seen that! This is unfortunate for me to hear, since now I have to dig around for different feed and do a whole barn grain change! Thank you so much for bringing this to my attention, it is very much appreciated. do you have any suggestions for a replacement? I just now took about a 30 second peek at Ultium Competition and Ultium Gastric Care, but I’ll have to do a more thorough investigation and look at other options as well before I make any decisions. Again, thank you!

[dungrulla]

@sdlbredfan

I have not seen that you are providing the necessary amount of detail, even yet. So, complaining that ‘maybe 2’ people provided helpful responses means that you still have not provided enough data. Good luck, and be assured you are likely to receive more detailed responses when you have provided detail such as how many pounds of grain, how many pounds of hay, etc. are being fed. If you have not already looked into this, you might want to try either Purina Ultium gastric care, which contains the outlast supplement, or one of the Triple Crown feeds.

Outlast is also not a feed so her response confuses me.

[Simkie]

Since you’re not willing to post what he’s eating–amounts and exact products–it’s impossible to help you.

Only having hay for 12-14 hours a day could certainly contribute though.

I wouldn’t work a horse that looks “like shit” like you describe at all. If he truly has no topline, hand walk and pony him all over hill and dale until he does. Then continue with walking trail rides over hills until he’s more muscled. It sounds like the level of work and expectations are way out of line with his current fitness.

A independent nutritionist might be your best bet on figuring out his diet. But really, it sounds like he’s probably just not getting nearly enough calories. Young thoroughbreds–geldings in particular–eat an enormous amount.

Good luck!

[Pico_Banana]

I had the best success with my TB giving him an amino acid supplement for weight/muscle gain. I had tried increasing grain and other fat supplements but that didn’t really work. I eventually added Tri-Amino and that did the trick. Beyond that he got Blue Seal Sentinel (maybe 4 qts total a day) and Triple Crown Lite (full ration for vitamins – I know that seems strange but that was all the barn offered for fortified grain). He really bloomed on this combination.

More recently I started giving my mare (not a TB) Nutrena topline balancer to help her get stronger and it also seems to be working. She definitely only needs muscle, no extra weight. (Vet says he likes the balancer better than Tri-Amino.)

So based on my experiences at least I think that horses that have trouble putting on muscle may just need a little more protein in their diets.

Good luck!