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Horse Owners we need to WAKE UP!!!

Horse Care
#361

It’s not that alternative medicines have no value - of course they have value, even if that value is only the placebo effect - which is VERY important in healing people!

I believe that the value in homeopathic medicines is simply the placebo effect (and that is what the studies in the UK have concluded), and I, like the person who has put up the $2m (+/-) would love to have their efficacy proven. It simply hasn’t happened, and not for lack of trying. And there is no placebo effect in animals, just on their owners. :wink:

Does my German/Italian trained vet recommend alternative medicines? Certainly - he prefers I use aloe vera on my horse’s cut leg to other creams (but that could also be because many of the creams you use in the US - furacin, for one, are not easily available here, if available at all). He doesn’t like Banamine at all. He wife owns a Health Food Store and carries natural as well as homeopathic remedies. But, will he recommend one of those for the infection in my horse’s hock rather than antibiotics? Absolutely NOT.

There is a place for all kinds of medications - natural, homeopathic, Oriental. It’s knowing when too use what that separates the truly knowledgeable from the quacks.

#362

All I’m reading is defensiveness from the folks who want to continue practicing veterinary medicine without a license.

I actually don’t have a problem with most “alternative” therapies. What I do have a problem with is those who feel they should not be subjected to oversight, medical review, or other checks and balances designed to protect the public.

And that’s what you’re advocating. “Leave us alone”. It’s not going to happen. And as time goes on, you will be subjected to increased scrutiny. So if I were you, I’d start being active in the legislative process; to included meeting with your state’s vet association to discuss options to draconian legislation.

#363

Lots of those defending the “alternative” therapies are those that are caught up in micro-managing their horses lives. The have their horses on multiple approaches, therapies, supplements etc. Their is also the idea that if it’s good enough for me then it will be even better for my horse.

#364

[QUOTE=caballus;3052467]

The AVMA proposal for COMPLETE CONTROL is out of line and realistically, impossible to uphold. It takes away the RIGHTS of the person to make his or her own decisions about how to have an animal treated. That’s the bottom line. Are we all to be considered absolutel imbeciles, unable to make an EDUCATED and researched decision? Are we our brothers’ keepers? Do we have the right to tell our neighbor don’t use this or that or so and so? (within reason, of course … not going to allow a neighbor to feed antifreeze or arsenic to his/her pet if its known. Quite obviously that comes under a clear cut animal abuse situation.)

You who uphold the “scientific” facts have the right to do so. Those who uphold the beliefs that there is more to “life” than “scientific facts” have the right to that. There is no wrong or right “beliefs” or “feelings”. Bottom line, if it works, it works. If it doesn’t, it doesn’t. You or I or anyone else has no right to tell someone else NOT to go to a Dr. or Vet and visa versa … you or I or anyone else has no right to tell someone else NOT to see a Chiropractor, Aromatherapist, Homeopathic, Herbalist or any of the other A/C practitioners. And we all have the RIGHT to learn and educate ourselves on what is best for our particular situations. That’s a basic human right. I’m sure there will be someone who will disagree but hey … that’s your right![/QUOTE]

That is the point of this discussion. The vets want complete control over something they don’t understand or have training in. Those that are working in alternative modalities have no problem with licensing and testing, setting standards, etc. But how can the majority of vets be the ones policing this as they don’t have a basic understanding of these modalities.

#365

One more post from me for awhile. This is a list of some of the controlled studies that have been done just on Homeopathy alone. This list comes from Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center who use Homeopathy and Herbs to complement more of the traditional cancer treatments:

References:
Weiser M, et al. Homeopathic vs conventional treatment of vertigo: a randomized double-blind controlled clinical study. Arch Otolaryngol Head Neck Surg 1998;124:879-85.
Kayne S. Complementary Therapies for Pharmacists. London UK: Pharmaceutical Press; 2002.
Callinan Paul. Family Homeopathy, A Practical Guide for Home Treatment. New Canaan: Keats Publishing; 1995.
The NCAHF Position Paper on Homeopathy (http://www.ncahf.org/pp/homeop.html).
Cassileth B. The Alternative Medicine Handbook. New York: W.W. Norton & Company; 1998.
Jacobs J, et al. Homeopathic treatment of acute otitis media in children: a preliminary randomized placebo-controlled trial. Pediatr Infect Dis J 2001;20:177-83.
Fisher P, Scott DL. A randomized controlled trial of homeopathy in rheumatoid arthritis. Rheumatology (Oxford) 2001;40:1052-5.
Oberbaum M, et al. A randomized, controlled clinical trial of the homeopathic medication TRAUMEEL S in the treatment of chemotherapy-induced stomatitis in children undergoing stem cell transplantation. Cancer 2001;92:684-90.
Vickers AJ, et al. Can homeopathically prepared mercury cause symptoms in healthy volunteers? A randomized, double-blind placebo-controlled trial. J Altern Complement Med 2001;7:141-8.
Vickers AJ. Clinical trials of homeopathy and placebo: analysis of a scientific debate. J Altern Complement Med 2000;6:49-56.
Vickers AJ, Zollman C. ABC of complementary medicine. Homoeopathy. BMJ 1999;319:1115-8.
Vickers AJ, et al. Can homeopaths detect homeopathic medicines? A pilot study for a randomised, double-blind, placebo controlled investigation of the proving hypothesis. Br Homeopath J 2001;90:126-30.
Vickers AJ. Independent replication of pre-clinical research in homoeopathy: a systematic review. Forsch Komplementarmed 1999;6:311-20.
Linde K, et al. Are the clinical effects of homeopathy placebo effects? A meta-analysis of placebo-controlled trials. Lancet 1997;350:834-43.
Ernst E. A systematic review of systematic reviews of homeopathy. Br J Clin Pharmacol 2002;54:577-82.
Paterson IC. Homeopathy: what is it and is it of value in the care of patients with cancer? Clin Oncol (R Coll Radiol) 2002;14:250-3.
Ernst E. Homoeopathy: inaccuracies, misunderstandings and half-truths in allopathic doses. Clin Oncol (R Coll Radiol) 2002;14:254-5.
Brien S, Lewith G, Bryant T. Ultramolecular homeopathy has no observable clinical effects. A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled proving trial of Belladonna 30C. Br J Clin Pharmacol. 2003;56:562-8.
Balzarini A, et al. Efficacy of homeopathic treatment of skin reactions during radiotherapy for breast cancer: a randomised, double-blind clinical trial. Br Homeopath J. 2000;89(1):8-12.
Shang A, et al. Are the clinical effects of homoeopathy placebo effects? Comparative study of placebo-controlled trials of homoeopathy and allopathy. Lancet. 2005; 366:726-32.
Haila S, Koskinen A, Tenovuo J. Effects of homeopathic treatment on salivary flow rate and subjective symptoms in patients with oral dryness: a randomized trial. Homeopathy. 2005; 94:175-81.

If you want to read some of the results the original page I found this on is:
http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/69254.cfm

Complementary and Alternative healthcare treatments are NOT “Veterinary Medicine” so those using it are NOT “practicing veterinary medicine without a license.” Sorry, J Swan. I imagine that color therapy, music therapy, movement therapy and other less noticed therapies will also fall under the “alternative and complementary” stigma for licensed practices only? There are people who use those, too, with horses and other pets. So what say you about that??

#366

I’d say that I’m not the one you need to convince.

You need to convince your legislature that alternative medicine should not be subjected to any oversight or scrutiny.

So far - it seems alternative medicine has done a piss poor job of doing that.

And I’ve read nothing in this thread that leads me to believe you’ve done anything but reinforce the notion that many of you people need to be run out of business.

#367

That’s a list of ARTICLES on homeopathy. Only eight of them are actual randomized, etc. studies. The rest TALK about studies, review studies, or propose studies.

The vertigo study demonstrated positive benefit in both groups: antihistamine and homeopathic stuff. No placebo group. 100 patients. Everyone got better. Wow! Imagine that. Acute vertigo GETS BETTER. :stuck_out_tongue:

The rheumatoid arthritis study was randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blinded. It showed no benefit whatsoever to homeopathic remedies of various formulations. In fact, the placebo patients felt BETTER in some measures. Rheumatology (Oxford). 2001 Sep;40(9):1052-5. (sorry, can’t get link to work)

The Traumeel/stomatitis paper was promising.

The Brien/Belladonna paper was utterly damning: showed that homeopathic treatment does nothing. :lol: Or to be precise, the paper stated “no observable clinical effects”.

The authors of the skin/breast cancer paper had some major questions as to methodology but felt that maybe there was some potential skin cooling. Not enough detail in the abstract to comment.

Another human case … Lyme tick embedded for 5 days prior to notice. Typical bull’s eye reaction. Flu-like symptoms with pos. Lyme test. No doxy or other regime given. 3 days of Ledum 1M. Symptoms alleviated, no recurrance and blood tests neg.

So you diagnosed AND treated Lyme disease. But no, no, you alternative practitioners don’t really do that, I forgot. And how, pray tell, did you know the tick was there for 5 days if nobody had noticed it? :confused: What was the “positive Lyme test”, exactly? How was this followed by a “negative blood test”, exactly?

#368

caballus
Yes, Sloan-Kettering does have info about alternative medicine on it’s website.

Here’s what they had to say:
" Many opponents argue that homepathic medicine is a placebo. A randomized controlled trial of ultramolecular homeopathic formulations showed no observable clinical effects (18). A meta-analysis found the clinical effects of homeopathy to be placebo effects (20). However, other studies using different methodologies found clinical effects cannot be completely attributed to placebo effect alone. One randomized, double-blind clinical trial showed homeopathic medicine can treat the heat of the skin resulting from radiotherapy for breast cancer (19). Another study reported that homeopathic treatment improved symptoms of xerostomia (21). Nonetheless, these results must be viewed with strong caution as the proposed mechanism for homeopathic treatment contradicts modern scientific understanding. Homeopathic products do not agree with basic scientific principles as extreme dilutions contain not a single molecule of the active ingredient. For that same reason, homeopathic remedies are free of toxicity or side effects, except when mainstream care is postponed for serious illnesses such as cancer. While homeopathic remedies may be used for some self-limiting ailments, no published evidence has indicated the use of homeopathy as an effective therapy for cancer. Recent claims of a homeopathic smallpox vaccine have no supporting scientific studies."

Make sure you read the part about ‘strong caution’.

Many cancer centers offer alternate treatments BUT as a part of a co-ordinated treatment plan determined by a Medical PROFESSIONAL. Not as a cure for cancer but as a means of alleviating some of the symptoms caused by treatment such as radiation or chemotherapy.

#369

There’s nothing wrong with oversight or scrutiny.

#370

I said I was done, but I just want to put this out there.
For you who are doing nothing but being sarcastic and adding nothing of value to this conversation-ridiculing our choice of health and well being for our animals, why would a school like OSU promote it??

Alternative Medicine

If you are interested in working in alternative medicine as your�4th year off-site externship experience, we provide a list of�The�Ohio State University College of�Veterinary Medicine’s previously approved locations.�

Here’s the link:
http://www.vet.ohio-state.edu/1660.htm

This is from UC DAvis

In the area of alternative medicine, veterinary researchers will study therapies that are still out of the mainstream of veterinary medicine, including herbal products, acupuncture and holistic medical treatments.

And the link, for those who don’t trust me:
http://www.dateline.ucdavis.edu/printable_dl_detail.lasso?id=7604&preview=no

Colorado State University is endowing a professorship in complementary and alternative medicine at the school’s College of Veterinary Medicine and Biomedical Sciences

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5003026,00.html
:winkgrin:

#371

According to you folks - you don’t want any interference in your work by the legislature or veterinary professionals. So yes, you do object to scrutiny and oversight.

Perhaps not all of you - but enough that you’re not able to work with the veterinary lobby to change the language or compromise on proposed or existing legislation. For every reasonable practitioner of alternative medicine (and it is practicing medicine regardless of what name you slap on it) there are many many others that have no business being near an animal.

So the vets are stepping in and putting a stop to ALL of it. Perhaps it’s an overreaction - but from their point of view - it’s an ethical one.

#372

Quote:
Another human case … Lyme tick embedded for 5 days prior to notice. Typical bull’s eye reaction. Flu-like symptoms with pos. Lyme test. No doxy or other regime given. 3 days of Ledum 1M. Symptoms alleviated, no recurrance and blood tests neg.

So you diagnosed AND treated Lyme disease. But no, no, you alternative practitioners don’t really do that, I forgot. And how, pray tell, did you know the tick was there for 5 days if nobody had noticed it? What was the “positive Lyme test”, exactly? How was this followed by a “negative blood test”, exactly?

Ummmmmm, nowhere have I said I “diagnosed” anything so that should relieve any worries about that. All Dx’s were made by vets or drs. and care was given by vets or drs. Homeopathy was taken after traditional allopathic care where stated. I’ve related either situations that I’ve personally witnessed/with which I’ve been involved or those which have been 1st handedly told to me. The Lyme test was given at the PC’s office … both before and after. I am assuming that the person who had the tick on them was in a specific area which is conducive to getting ticks 5 days prior to when she noticed it. I didn’t ask.

#373

Actually, we did get the language changed in Indiana. It happened over the weekend, and I just found out about it today. Basically it states that we can still do our alternative therapy with vet approval. Which, doesn’t bother me, I can get it. But what about those with vets 100mi away? And the whole POINT of this thread is CHOICE-not about whether or not we should be practicing. Most of our work is thru word of mouth-little advertising is done. So…we better be good and get results.:yes: Most of my recommendations are from a vet anyway.:winkgrin:

#374

Ah, so a series of cases you’ve seen or heard about.

How interesting that a positive Lyme test can suddenly become negative after treatment. When titers typically persist for years or decades. I wonder if this amazing case was reported to the CDC?

#375

Can vets give referrals over the phone in Indiana? What is required and what constitutes “vet approval”? A written referral/prescription?

#376

For every reasonable practitioner of alternative medicine (and it is practicing medicine regardless of what name you slap on it) there are many many others that have no business being near an animal.

And for every reasonable practitioner of alt. med. there are many many other DVMS that have no business being near an animal. Works both ways.

Practicing medicine … every time we give our kids cough med. or cold remedies we are “practicing medicine”. Cleaning up wounds, bandaging, etc. is practicing medicine. Horse owners who give their own horses/dogs/cats vaccinations, IV hydrations, give Banamine or Bute or Antiobiotics are “practicing medicine”. so perhaps everyone BUT DVMs should be banned from tending any sort of “medical practice” on animals … their own or anyone else’s? Actually, that’s what the proposition is all about, isn’t it?

Good Glory … there are others who are NOT DVMs who DO have knowledge and practical experience and brains to know what to do and how to it with their own animals. Those living in rural areas sometimes are FORCED to do their own medical care simply because the nearest vet is hours away and won’t go out to the area to treat. Or, as in the case of a friend, the vets she called in 4 states “don’t do goats” … the woman lost her doe and the kid as she tried desperately to find a vet who would help them. What about the farmer who has a cow calving in the middle of the night and runs into problems? Any farmer worth his weight in gold is going to know how to help his cow get that calf born. Can’t put the downed cow in the car and take her to the Emergency room at Tufts. A farmer who treats Mastitis with “Today” is practicing medicine … do you think that he’s going to want to pay a farm call fee, an exam fee, a drug fee that is DOUBLED or even TRIPLED if he can knowlegeably treat his cow’s mastitis himself? DVMs are not Gods … they aren’t the ONLY ones with medical education and they certainly have less than adequate education with “alternative medicine” unless they’ve chosen to put in another 3 or 4 years studying or even up to 6 as Naturopaths do. Be realistic. For cripes sake, people are not helpless.

#377

I don’t think anyone is being sarcastic or ridiculing your choice of health care for your animals. Your position is that that veterinarians have no right to get into your business. But they do. Their profession is charged with the care and treatment of pets and livestock. While they do not have the right to make decisions FOR the owner, they do have the right to express concern about the legitimacy of alternative medicine (and its practitioners). More to the point - the concern is the practitioners; not the medicine.

It’s no secret that alternative medicine is being studied in universities. That’s where a lot of research is done on many sciences.

Some of you seem to believe you’re engaged in some sort of great scientific debate and need to score points off people. If it’s a debate - it’s pretty one-sided because all the ‘other side’ is doing is pointing out that you need to have your concerns addressed by your state legislature.

Further discussion is rather pointless unless it’s to post about wonderful it is to speak in committee about your opposition to a Bill.

Edited to add - wow - it seems that someone in Indiana actually got off their butt and DID something instead of whining about how difficult it all was. So - though it was some sort of insurmountable task, requiring millions of dollars and a full time lobbyist… somehow a simple change in language and voila. Massage Lady is saved. Good thing someone in her profession was looking out for her interests.

And caballus - pointing out that there are bad vets has absolutely no bearing upon the issue of laypeople practicing veterinary medicine. Separate issue. It does not go ‘both ways’.

#378

[QUOTE=deltawave;3052668]
Ah, so a series of cases you’ve seen or heard about.

How interesting that a positive Lyme test can suddenly become negative after treatment. When titers typically persist for years or decades. I wonder if this amazing case was reported to the CDC?[/QUOTE] Have no idea. If you’re that interested in the Ledum protocol for Lyme you might want to check with the vets who advocate it and use it successfully. All you need to do is google Veterinarian + Homeopathy. I’m sure you can come up with something. Perhaps you’d believe a bona fide Certified, Licensed Veterinarian. After all, I’m just telling stories …

#379

Thanks, but I don’t use Google for medical topics. :slight_smile: Something far more people ought to consider.

#380

deltawave - are you trying to tell me that everything posted on the Internet is not directly from the burning bush???

:lol::lol::lol:

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