horse ownership help!

[Karaannee]

I’m not sure if this was the correct place to put this so sorry if it isn’t!

My boyfriend was given a free registered thoroughbred ( more than one but the issue is just with this one, by his uncle) about five years ago. His uncle never gave him the papers, they never switched names of ownership there’s not proof that they had any type of ‘deal’. The horse was around two when my boyfriend got her. He broke her, trained her, paid for everything since she came into his care while his uncle did nothing. She is now for sale and the Uncle is demanding money (HALF of what he is selling her for!!!) He’s using the papers and it being in his name as some type of leverage to make sure he gets what he thinks he deserves for her(Which in reality is a whole lot of nothing)

Does him having the papers mean anything at this point? It’s been five years… She’s showing rated shows and we need the papers to go to ones that we have planned and for her to be in his name, is there any way of getting them through the Jockey Club with out having his signature??

I’m at such a lose of what to do at this point… any help is greatly appreciated! Thank you!

[ladyj79]

Jockey Club papers can be replaced by you or new buyer provided they can prove the horse’s identity (ie pictures and a name). You or new buyer will also need a bill of sale. There’s an earlier thread about replacing jc papers.

I take it she isn’t tattoed?

[jetsmom]

Send Uncle a bill for 5 yrs board, farrier, vet, and training. tell him you will waive the bill in return for her papers and a bill of sale.

[Simkie]

If your boyfriend doesn’t have a bill of sale, the papers or any sort of contract, then he’s got no proof that he owns the horse–his uncle could probably make life very difficult.

This would likely be best settled by offering a sum to the uncle as a “settlement”…and it would be best to get documentation on the rest of the horses given to your boyfriend. Perhaps a summary of expenses incurred on the horse against what the uncle feels is the value of the horse would be useful.

Replacing the papers with the Jockey Club is not as simple as contacting them with a bill of sale. You have to have a notarized statement from the owner regarding where and how the papers were lost. Falsifying this would be perjury.

[danceronice]

I think to replace the papers is $400 fee, you need to prove the horse’s identity, AND you have to show that the old papers were lost or destroyed. They will NOT give you a new set because the last owner of record isn’t giving them to you and claims you owe him for the horse. The papers exist and you know where they are, you just can’t get them. What you NEED (not for the JC but for a prospective buyer and if the uncle’s that kind of person, the judge/lawyers when he sues you) is a bill of sale or other signed property transfer showing that the uncle gave OWNERSHIP of the horse to your BF, not free-leased or just let him train the horse.

Why do you need her foal papers? Is she being sold as a warmblood cross broodmare who’ll need them for inspection purposes? She doesn’t need them to show, if she’s tattooed she doesn’t need them for a JC baby, they are not proof of ownership and you don’t usually transfer ownership with the JC unless you’re racing or breeding the horse for a JC-registerable foal.

[alto]

You can likely go to court & get a settlement of ownership in your favor as all the vet etc bills will be in your name …
BUT this will likely cost some $$ as well as create family difficulties soooo your BF may come out ahead paying the uncle “his” 50% LESS “his” 50% of upkeep through the 5 years of care

He can be just as forthright as the uncle, agree, get the transfer of ownership papers to the buyer, then present uncle with his sale share less his maintenance share :winkgrin:

[GallopGirl]

[QUOTE=ladyj79;7577506]
Jockey Club papers can be replaced by you or new buyer provided they can prove the horse’s identity (ie pictures and a name). You or new buyer will also need a bill of sale. There’s an earlier thread about replacing jc papers.

I take it she isn’t tattoed?[/QUOTE]

JC requires a signed affidavit explaining how papers were lost/destroyed as well as bill of sale. Why do you even need the papers if you are selling as a show horse? JC papers are really only required if you plan on racing again. Lip tattoo, plus free look-up, plus information from Equibase would be engh for me to know the history and breeding of an OTTB if I were buying something as a show horse or resale.

If you go to court without a signed bill of sale from the uncle it will be hard to prove you outright own the horse. It is a common arrangement to have one person purchase the horse, another pay monthly bills/provide training, then split the profit post-sale. My suggestion would be to work it out with the uncle to avoid a court deciding the fate of your horse.

[Dewey]

[QUOTE=jetsmom;7577521]
Send Uncle a bill for 5 yrs board, farrier, vet, and training. tell him you will waive the bill in return for her papers and a bill of sale.[/QUOTE]

Agree that this is the best way to go.

[MIKES_MCS]

No bill of sale and no training/ board contract… Since the uncle stated he wants half of the sale price of the horse he is admitting their was some sort of 50/50 partnership. since you haven’t sent him any invoices or bills for the last 5 years I would think you woudl have a problem coolecting for all but the last year, but the uncle might be shocked by the yearly cost of training, maintaining and showing a horse , a $30,000.00 bill would be well within average for a modest trainers yearly board training and showing costs . So jets mom has the right idea.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=Karaannee;7577405]

She’s showing rated shows and we need the papers to go to ones that we have planned [/QUOTE]

What type of rated show requires you to produce papers? I’m confused…

[ladyj79]

That’s why I asked about the tattoo as my presumption was tb divisions where you need either papers or tattoo.

[BeeHoney]

You don’t need the papers to sell the horse. You could just ignore the uncle entirely and sell the horse without the papers. If uncle wants to pursue the case legally, let him. Your boyfriend has a verbal contract that the horse was given to him free and clear (no proof, but having retained the papers in no way proves that the uncle didn’t give away the horse either). If the uncle goes to court and the courts find that he did in fact retain ownership of the horse, then they also would most likely support the idea that he owes your boyfriend all or part of all of the horses training and care expenses for the five years he has had him.

[Jumper_girl221]

If she’s showing TB classes, you can take her registered name to get a TIP paper from the Jockey Club. That alone, or that in conjunction with her equibase pedigree, would be enough for any JC class or TB show.

Out of the 6 Tb’s on my farm…I have papers for 2…and honestly need to look go look for one of those!

[MIKES_MCS]

That would depend on the judge, The agreement could have been the Uncle supplied the horses , the nephew supplied the training and care and ll expenses , and they split what ever the horses sold for , That is not an uncommon arrangement . If it wasn’t discussed before hand that’s an issue but a court proceeding could easily go against the nephew.

[danceronice]

[QUOTE=MIKES MCS;7578363]
That would depend on the judge, The agreement could have been the Uncle supplied the horses , the nephew supplied the training and care and ll expenses , and they split what ever the horses sold for , That is not an uncommon arrangement . If it wasn’t discussed before hand that’s an issue but a court proceeding could easily go against the nephew.[/QUOTE]

Yep, if there’s nothing in writing it’s entirely BF’s word against the uncle’s. Situations like these are why everyone on COTH always screams “GET IT IN WRITING!”

[Karaannee]

We wanted her papers for the thoroughbred shows since she was never tattooed so those are really the only shows I need them for. An issue with the papers I’m worried about is that I’m planning on purchasing the horse and I don’t want the legal trouble of him never giving me the papers and claiming her as his and trying to get her back. She’s a nice horse and worth much much more than I’m spending on her so I wouldn’t put it past him since he’s having lonely issues.

If I get a bill of sale and have him sign it over now would all issues stop then? That’s if I can even get him to sign them. He realized how much she was worth and decided he needed part of it, yet never asked for any money from the few others that have been sold from him. I’m not sure if somehow that’s make a difference if we went to court?? That all of a sudden since she’s worth more than the rest he think he should get some? We are happy to give him a portion… Between the $500 and $750 range. But anymore than that seems crazy since I’m only paying $4,000… Even though she could go for triple that amount.

[danceronice]

The Jockey Club papers are not like AQHA or other breed stuff. They are not proof of ownership (people routinely sell TBs without them, they get lost or left at track offices when a horse is sold off.) They’re proof of the horse’s identity. They mean precisely nothing when it comes to ownership. And again, in this situation there is no way on Earth the Jockey Club will help you with duplicates. They are extremely strict about that because especially with an un-tattooed animal it would be easy to use the papers with a horse they don’t belong to.

And why on Earth would the uncle sign a bill of sale now unless you give him money? He says the horse is his and you have very little proof she’s not. You needed something in writing from when he “gave” the horse to BF. Otherwise it’s just BF’s word that he was flat-out given the horse (as mentioned, he could show bills for training and board) versus the uncle saying he just gave her to the BF to train for sale, not to keep. If you sell the horse and don’t give him an amount he agrees to, HE may take YOU to court and sue you for half her sale price. If he did, the best-case scenario is you all lose a bunch of time and court costs. Heck, if the issue becomes “I paid the bills” versus “the agreement was he pays training, I give him the horse, we split the sale” then what a court MIGHT do is if her fair market value is in fact $12,000, order she be sold for that amount. You just said “I’m only paying $4000.” Your boyfriend is selling YOU the horse? If I were the judge that would not go favorably if you’re also claiming that’s only 1/3 her fair market value. That would look like the boyfriend is trying to rip off his uncle so his girlfriend can get a horse cheap.

[spotteddrafter]

You’re buying this TB from your boyfriend? Have him sell her to you for $1, and write up a bill of sale. Give $.50 to the Uncle with a copy of the bill of sale. Also, make sure there is an additional bill that your boyfriend give the Uncle - even a years worth of board/training/vet would be a pretty penny.

[Karaannee]

They never agreed on a price the uncle would get because he was never suppose to get any money off her just like the others. My boyfriend told him he’d give him some because he knew he needed the money and now his uncle is taking advantage of it. She was a sale horse for the past year for him till I started riding her and fell in love(typical horse girl I know) so he came up with a price for me because he didn’t want to take such a large amount of money from me even if she’s worth it. We’re fine giving him money for her since we do feel bad that he’s lost everything… It just isn’t reasonable for it to be $2,000. We have proof we’ve had her for the past five years. Vet bills, farrier, teeth, show bills. But that isn’t protecting us from his threat of coming and taking her when we aren’t there. Which is why I wondered if I got a bill of sale or would help?

I’m not buying her till things are settled with what amount or money who gets so I’d hope be purchasing her isn’t effecting anything since we’re trying to give the uncle his money BEFORE she sells either to me or someone paying full asking price.

[ladyj79]

If you are comfortable paying the uncle for the horse, I’d pay him what she would have been worth as an unstarted non-racing 2yr old. I think 500 would be more than sufficient, but you guys should at least try to engage in dialogue about what amount he feels he is entitled to.

When I was given a particular horse, and I do mean given, the former owner contacted me like a year and a half later and demanded money for the horse or they would report it stolen. Seriously. I had emails detailing the whole agreement, which never ever specified any payment for the horse, unless I sold the horse within the first two years of ownership, but no signed documents, and in the end it was just less of a hassle to pay her the really very low sum and be done with it. Because she was clearly insane. Find a sum you can live with and be done with it.