The trainer does not know how to ride dressage, so I am afraid I do not think of them as being a full trainer. Even showjumpers know that jumping is dressage over obstacles.
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I have a pretty anxiety filled creature. He has sent riders flying and it took us almost 2 years of easy confidence building consistent work to get him really broke. He had a bad experience getting broke in a stall by his breeder which caused a heavy fear response.
The horse in question will jump around 3’ without batting an eye, flats beautifully, and has also gone to shows without issue. He still gets worried and we manage his anxiety but he’s a happy camper and willing to do whatever you ask. He’s perfect for me but I just moniter his fear and you cannot push him. Everything is super slow with him. He has never hurt me or launched me, thankfully but I know he has it in him.
I know the OP has checked out, but I wouldn’t ride this horse. I dont want to go to the hospital or to have a fear of jumping over xrails. It isn’t worth it. Don’t potentially maim yourself, which from the falls you’ve had, sounds like you’re part of the way there, for this horse.
You cannot fix him. You dont want to flat him or teach him dressage, which would help you with every other horse you sit on. It’s okay to give up on some of them. You can’t save them all. He’s telling you no, but you aren’t listening
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Give the trainer a pass on this one maybe. My flatwork is not bad. I teach flatwork that is pretty decent. If questioned, I would suspect my clients would disavow any knowledge of dressage and assure you I know no dressage. If questioned, I disavow any knowledge of dressage because there’s a good chance the person asking has an Olympic dressage medal, and if they don’t, the person behind me does and is going to choke on their coffee if I call my jumper flatwork dressage.
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I feel the same way. I L.O.V.E flatwork - but it’s not “dressage” the way a dressage specialist would call it. So… I just say that I’m riding in a dressage saddle that day. 
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There is nothing mystical about dressage. Nobody is asking HJers to prove they can “do” dressage by doing a line of one tempis. Any good HJ rider should know how to supple a horse and ride back to front up through the bridle. Anyone riding 2’6” courses should know how to ride basic lateral work-it will keep your horse sound and make you a better rider. Once you get past the French terminology, fundamental dressage is just good basic flatwork. Here’s a great resource: https://www.horseandriderbooks.com/store/dressage-between-the-jumps.html
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Dressage means training. It is not some high faluting thing that nobody can achieve. Flatwork is dressage. You can do dressage on trail rides. You can do dressage between jumps. A dressage horse can do anything. Cross a stream, jump cross country jumps, do an obstacle course. Go dressage!
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Ah yes, it’s a learning opportunity….unless you get paralyzed or killed in the process.
Trainer/Owner is not willing to swing a leg, that says well enough. Why are you blindly encouraging this young girl to continue to put herself at risk for an ANIMAL that’s not even hers?
Your replies really say a lot about you….and it’s not great things.
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Absolutely. A proper dressage training even requires different positioning of the rider’s schenkel in addition to longer (than jumping) stirrups. Not to mention that it’s done preferably in sitting trot in order to maximize the contact with the animal.
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^^^^^^^^^
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So lengthening stirrups two holes and sitting trot…these are big asks for HJ riders???
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This is not true at the lower levels. In the tests, sitting isn’t required until second level, which also requires collection.
There is no need to sit the trot or even to lengthen stirrups for basic dressage work, which I would define as moving freely back to front, not on the forehand, balanced transitions between and within the gaits, and very basic lateral work, like leg yield, shoulder fore, etc. Anyone can do this in any saddle and with any length stirrups that allow the horse to feel your leg easily.
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What is a schenkel? I’m stumped by this one.
I’ve been a H/J person my whole life but I didn’t learn begin to learn dressage until I started riding with UL eventers. I’m not sure most hunter riders, or lower level jumper riders, even, need to know much about it to be competitive. But if you want to be a more effective rider there is nothing better, and I can say without exaggeration that learning how to work my way up through the training pyramid has changed my life and my riding.
One of the things that is problematic for German dressage, which is what I know, is that hunter riders go in a halfseat or two-point most of the time. It took me months, if not years, before I could get rid of that habit, which wasn’t helping me with my jumpers, especially my current guy. He goes best connected, over his back, and in front of my leg, sitting and jumping up off his hocks. The idea of forward riding is something that the very deep seat of German dressage doesn’t mesh as well with at first. The seat itself is an incredibly important aid in dressage, whereas in hunters one wants to be as light as possible, floating the reins and allowing the horse to stretch forward and down a bit. If I rode my jumper like that it would be silly, but I need different things from him than I would need if he was a hunter.
I think the best, most educated riders know what is feels like when a horse is working properly over its back. But having ridden hunters for many years very successfully without really grasping that concept, I would say that it’s just not necessary for that ring.
ETA: yes, I don’t own a dressage saddle, although I sometimes borrow one of my trainer’s saddles and ride in that. I flat my horse in his jumping saddle, with fairly long stirrups but certainly not dressage length. You can ride dressage in anything. Recently I had to send my saddle off to be repaneled and rode for a few weeks in a bareback pad, including lessons.
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Absolutely, a dressage saddle helps to put you in the best position to make it happen, but as a jumper rider who has been lucky to take dressage lessons from an FEI judge, basic dressage, IMO, is basically riding your horse with more impulsion and straightness than most hunter or jumper riders would typically try for, and that can be done in any saddle.
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Funny, when I recently took a clinic with a Grand Prix dressage rider/S level judge, she didn’t tell me I couldn’t do it in my jump saddle, nor did she insist I needed to drop my stirrups longer than my normal flatting length. I always raise and lower my stirrups when going between jumping and flatting, and if you’re jumping above 2’6, you probably should be too. Did I sit the trot? Yes. Did we do lateral work? Of course. Did we do lengthening and shortening? Absolutely. These are all things that are a part of our regular training routine, but we learned to do it better at the clinic. My horse and I walked away with a better foundation for the flatwork (DRESSAGE) skills we will need as we progress in our training. The next time I jumped him I had a more balanced and adjustable horse.
If you honestly believe that the flatwork you are doing with your horse is not some form of dressage, I beg of you to please find a dressage trainer and go ride with them a few times. You may discover that you have been doing dressage all along, or you may discover why you should have been doing dressage all along.
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I find this thread to be pretty sad in that there are so many h/j riders who seem to be deprived of dressage basics in their programs. Is this truly the case or do people just understand so little about basic dressage principles that they don’t realize they are being exposed to the basics?
In 3 out of 4 of my past hunter programs, we’ve focused on basic dressage in our flatwork (4th program was a brief interlude for me - I bailed when I realized there was no focus on creating and maintaining the rhythm myself and that the answer to all issues was to buy a horse with a metronome canter).
Proper bend in circle. Shoulder in, haunches in and out (travers and renver, although the hunter folks never call it by name it’s still the same regardless of tack or nomenclature). Turn on the haunches and forehand APPROPRIATELY (not a pivot like a western horse, but maintaining motion). Back (rein back). Lateral work. Lengthening. Shortening. Free walk to stetch the topoline. Maintaining rhythm, cadence, and balance. And, of course, straightness and impulsion as a poster above mentioned.
Doing some of this in a hunter saddle is significantly more difficult than in a dressage saddle as it’s much harder to move your pelvis and legs where they may need to go for some cues, I will attest to that! My first few lessons on a wide barreled horse were painful until I stretched that muscle group enough to make my leg swing back enough to motivate his hind end.
I will also add that there is a difference between a general hunter lead change and a proper dressage change. Some hunters use a leg yield, some use an inside rein cue, some use an outside rein cue, some do the super obnoxious weight change (seat hump), while a dressage horse will always, always, ALWAYS need to maintain impulsion and straightness (opposite of the common hunter “leg yield” to the rail) to make it’s change. Once you ride a series of tempi changes you understand why this is so important. You can’t get from H to F if you’re leg yielding left to right every time you make a lead change. Also, a dressage change must be executed hind to front, whereas a hunter simply needs to change it’s lead (and can change front to back).
Other than lead changes, a lot of the basics are actually the same. The question is whether people are being taught them (and learning them) or not.
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I doubt that a hunter is ever going to be asked to raise their sternum and SIT the way a “proper dressage” horse will. The level and precision of everything expected in dressage is where the difference lies. Yes, the jumpers need to know how to do all that stuff, but not nearly to the technical degree that a dressage horse, who is expected to build and build and build off that foundation, is going to be expected to do.
Yes I ride back to front. Yes I ride inside leg to outside rein. Yes I ask for engagement, rhythm, relaxation, suppleness… but since I have zero aspirations of riding anything above 3rd/4th, I don’t need that “ultra deep” half pass or the ability to do half steps. And since I’m not aiming for that, I don’t need to drill the exact precision a straight-dressage horse will need.
That said, I rode with a straight-dressage barn for 2 years, two lessons a week. I know what they wanted, and I know what I need in my jumpers. They are not the same.
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I’ve got a Master’s degree in a field that is basically glorified English & didn’t know it was an actual word, either! 
It’s apparently a German-derived word for thigh.
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For dressage, from a jumper: “So… you have absolutely perfected your flatwork. What will you do with it???”
And since there is no answer to that, I am still a jumper, and not a straight dressage rider… 
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John and Beezie Madden clinics that I audited were very much Dressage focused, while sitting in a Jumping saddle, with shorter jumping length stirrups.
Lengthening stride, shortening stride.
Ride a bent line in 3 strides, now do it in five
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Not going to argue with you. Of COURSE they aren’t the same! But the basics absolutely are.
We can agree to disagree.
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